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uriel
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 20:34:30
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Hi guys, this is my first time posting here so forgive me if this has already been covered.
I was wondering about the Harper split up and the whole Khelben leaving deal. Is this covered in one of the novels and if so which one?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 20:52:31
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Welcome to Candlekeep! 
It's not in a novel. It's in Cloak & Dagger -- one of the best and one of the last 2E supplements.
It's also, unfortunately, something that was ignored in 3E, and that is being tossed aside in 4E.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Mar 2008 20:59:16 |
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uriel
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 20:56:24
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Well that is disappointing, something so interesting being ignored.
Thanks for the info though. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2008 : 00:08:40
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Indeed. This is probably one of the established aspects of 4e FR that annoys me specifically. The Harper Schism was one of my favorite parts of the Realmslore which was, unfortunately, also ignored throughout most of 3e [much like the Manshoon Wars -- another plot hook I would've love to learn more about].
Anyways, Uriel, I suggest you also look over Steven Schend's comments made here at Candlekeep. We've discussed the Harper Schism with him many times, and his offered both numerous and curious insights that build on the material presented in Cloak & Dagger. Also, Elaine Cunningham's "New Olamn" article in DRAGON #335 has a little info as well.
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Edited by - The Sage on 21 Mar 2008 00:11:32 |
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uriel
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2008 : 00:44:22
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| Thanks a lot, I'll give it look. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 19:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's also, unfortunately, something that was ignored in 3E, and that is being tossed aside in 4E.
Please tell me they're even mentioning the condition of the Moonstars in 4th edition? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
Edited by - khorne on 23 Mar 2008 19:12:54 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 21:26:22
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According to some things Mr. Baker has been allowed to tells us from the information he had at the time... The Moonstars and Harpers make up and rejoin into a single group (like the Harpers) during the 100 years skip. Of course, the Moonstars are likely to continue to differ in outlook. But it would be more like the different orders of monks in the catholic church then Catholics vs. Protestants.
Or that is what I know. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 23:48:14
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Indeed. Rich Baker has said that the Moonstars are eventually "re-absorbed back into the Harpers."
Which I really find unfortunate, as I said earlier, I loved the Moonstars and the concept of the Harper Schism. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 11:56:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed. Rich Baker has said that the Moonstars are eventually "re-absorbed back into the Harpers."
......By the Queen of Chaos, every time I think wotc has run out of ways to make me want to bash my head against the wall... |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 12:55:48
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed. Rich Baker has said that the Moonstars are eventually "re-absorbed back into the Harpers."
......By the Queen of Chaos, every time I think wotc has run out of ways to make me want to bash my head against the wall...
Indeed. It's bad enough that the Harper Schism was one of two great 2E plots that were utterly ignored, but casually undoing the plot like it never happened? That one statement went a long way towards destroying the 4E optimism I was trying so hard to hold on to. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 13:53:03
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| I agree, I was happy with the Moonstars as they were. Merging them back with the Harpers makes it sounds like they were a mistake (in-setting and out of it), which many of us would vehemently disagree with. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 15:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Indeed. It's bad enough that the Harper Schism was one of two great 2E plots that were utterly ignored, but casually undoing the plot like it never happened? That one statement went a long way towards destroying the 4E optimism I was trying so hard to hold on to.
I'm still curious to see how it actually happens though. But, for the most part, and as I said earlier, I'm going to miss the Moonstars. They were one of the more fascinating alternative plots explored in 2e/3e FR.
And unless the reason for the existence of the Moonstars is either resolved, or just ignored completely in 4e FR, I'm not sure how they can just be "re-absorbed" back into the Harpers. It'll be really unfortunate if we're not told "how" and "why" it happened, and it will be very disappointing if the "why" doesn't, in some way, relate to previous Realmslore.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 15:10:57
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| Their reason will be "just because" |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 15:31:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And unless the reason for the existence of the Moonstars is either resolved, or just ignored completely in 4e FR, I'm not sure how they can just be "re-absorbed" back into the Harpers. It'll be really unfortunate if we're not told "how" and "why" it happened, and it will be very disappointing if the "why" doesn't, in some way, relate to previous Realmslore.
What, things like "Sorry, we are incompetent twits just can't be arsed so we'll retcon everything into oblivion and render your previous-edition materials pointless so you'll buy the new stuff!" don't strike you as a good reason? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 15:51:13
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As much as I hate to arbitrarily be negative, WotC's track record with changes since the intro of 3.x upon the Realms does lead me to expect that we won't get a good explanation for rolling the Tel'Teukiira back into the Harpers.  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 17:38:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I hate to arbitrarily be negative...
You aren't being arbitrarily negative, you are making a perfectly valid point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 23:36:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
What, things like "Sorry, we are incompetent twits just can't be arsed so we'll retcon everything into oblivion and render your previous-edition materials pointless so you'll buy the new stuff!" don't strike you as a good reason?
I know there are many who would probably expect exactly that. However, given that Khelben, the position of the Blackstaff, and Waterdeep itself, seem to be on the road toward receiving some major attention in early 4e FR, I'm hoping this provides some pretty expansive ground for authors/designers to treat the Moonstar reunification with the Harpers in a way that acknowledges, rather than ignores, previous Realmslore.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 15:35:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
What, things like "Sorry, we are incompetent twits just can't be arsed so we'll retcon everything into oblivion and render your previous-edition materials pointless so you'll buy the new stuff!" don't strike you as a good reason?
I know there are many who would probably expect exactly that. However, given that Khelben, the position of the Blackstaff, and Waterdeep itself, seem to be on the road toward receiving some major attention in early 4e FR, I'm hoping this provides some pretty expansive ground for authors/designers to treat the Moonstar reunification with the Harpers in a way that acknowledges, rather than ignores, previous Realmslore.
It'd be rather hard for Khelben to get much attention in 4E FR for very obvious reasons. I'll admit that the Moonstars get mentioned in my upcoming book, but there's nothing on this reunification with the Harpers to be found there. There are hints as to how/why/wherefore, but little more than that...just scattered bits of lore by some who remembered a few events that happened to them way back when....
You'll get solid information on the fates of at least two prominent Moonstars, but that's all I'm allowed to say right now.
Steven
who's obviously got a vested interest in the tel'Teukiira |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 17:57:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
What, things like "Sorry, we are incompetent twits just can't be arsed so we'll retcon everything into oblivion and render your previous-edition materials pointless so you'll buy the new stuff!" don't strike you as a good reason?
I know there are many who would probably expect exactly that. However, given that Khelben, the position of the Blackstaff, and Waterdeep itself, seem to be on the road toward receiving some major attention in early 4e FR, I'm hoping this provides some pretty expansive ground for authors/designers to treat the Moonstar reunification with the Harpers in a way that acknowledges, rather than ignores, previous Realmslore.
It'd be rather hard for Khelben to get much attention in 4E FR for very obvious reasons. I'll admit that the Moonstars get mentioned in my upcoming book, but there's nothing on this reunification with the Harpers to be found there. There are hints as to how/why/wherefore, but little more than that...just scattered bits of lore by some who remembered a few events that happened to them way back when....
You'll get solid information on the fates of at least two prominent Moonstars, but that's all I'm allowed to say right now.
Steven
who's obviously got a vested interest in the tel'Teukiira
Perhaps it might be best to think of this as an alliance of two groups rather then one single minded group. The Moonstars and Harpers might be the 'same group', but they would have different goals and actions to proceed with those goals. The only way this could work is it there is a hierarchy which is compose of those willing to accept both groups collective goals and methods.
The Harpers/Moonstar split seems to be based around a LG harper based (Berdusk Hallers) and a LN based Moonstars. In a united front which seems to be the case in 4ed it might be seen as the same as Obama democrats and Clinton Democrats. Or Batman type heroes and Superman type heroes. Both are major members on the Justice League like organization, yet they have different goals and methods which can bring conflicts within the group. Which can cause new adventure hooks.
So it is possible for there to be more then one power block in the harpers. Like the True Harpers (Berdusk Hallers), the Moonstars, the Free Harpers (The Shadowdale type group which wants to be free of the while conflict).
Just like the Zhents has blocks like the Manshroon and Fzoul blocks, or the Red Wizards have the Ssam block and the Thul block. The Netherine groups have the Shade and Selunarra blocks which are evil and good respectly, yet both are part of the group which was Netheril.
Thoughts?
Foxhelm |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 18:59:00
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Fox,
That's how I've viewed every group in Faerun. To a greater, or lesser, extent, depending on the specific group.
Otherwise, it feels totally artificial to me.
It's not like the Harpers can just go and have a conference call. :) (and yes, occasionally a few Harpers can pull off a conference call, but that's the exception, IMO, not the rule *g*) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 20:26:20
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| By the way, I don't see the Harpers as being LG-based, and I don't see the Moonstars as necessarily LN-based either (even though they were lead by a person who was LN). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 20:41:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
By the way, I don't see the Harpers as being LG-based, and I don't see the Moonstars as necessarily LN-based either (even though they were lead by a person who was LN).
There's this too.
The Harpers seem more like the group that would fight against a tyrannical LG type as much as a tyrannical LE type (well, a little quicker to take on the LE type, in the Harper way, than the LG type)
They're a "help the little guy against the big guy" type of group, or, at least, that's what I've read. I may be willfully forgetting some lore that contradicts that, but if so I'm doing a good job. ;) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 00:04:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
It'd be rather hard for Khelben to get much attention in 4E FR for very obvious reasons.
Aye.
What I meant there was, the character of Khelben, his history and related aspects, will likely receive some focus along with Waterdeep in the early 4e FR material. The Blackstaff himself, obviously won't. After all, his actions shaped much of Waterdeep's history, and his death will likely have had some impact on the city itself, which I assume we'll hear a little about through historical reflection in the pages of the new "Waterdeep" books.
quote:
I'll admit that the Moonstars get mentioned in my upcoming book, but there's nothing on this reunification with the Harpers to be found there. There are hints as to how/why/wherefore, but little more than that...just scattered bits of lore by some who remembered a few events that happened to them way back when....
Ah, possibilities. Neat.
quote:
You'll get solid information on the fates of at least two prominent Moonstars, but that's all I'm allowed to say right now.
Good stuff!
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Harper Schism
