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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Mar 2008 : 12:39:15
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I know this isn't strictly Realmsian, but I thought I'd post my rework of the 3E and 3.5E item creation feats. Comments welcome.
Reworked Item Creation Feats
Item creation feats are the best way to craft magic items for your character, however, the number of item creation feats has proliferated, reducing the utility of certain feats and calling into question others. For example, Oriental Adventures has the Craft Crystal Weapon feat, which has several prerequisites making the feat more difficult to use, but which only allows you to craft magic weapons made of crystal, some thing Craft Magic Arms and Armor should cover. On the other hand, Craft Wondrous Item, is nearly limitless in its uses. With it you could presumably copy the benefits of any other feat except Craft Magic Arms and Armor. The Magic Item Compendium resorted magic items into armor, weapons, clothing, and tools, pointing out some of the internal inconsistencies in the item creation feats. Below, you will find most of the feats have been reorganized and expanded into what is hopefully a more cohesive whole. Many of the feats that further modify or enhance the existing item creation feats, such as Dorje Mastery, Portal Master, Sanctify Relic, and the item creation feats in the Eberron Campaign Setting, remain separate feats.
[TC1] Alchemist
You can create alchemical items and substances.
Benefit: You can create alchemical items and substances even if you are not a spellcaster, following the rules in the PH. In addition, you get a +2 bonus on all Craft (alchemy) checks.
Craft Construct [Item Creation]
This feat works as detailed in the MM and Monster Manual 3.
Prerequisites: CL 5, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Magic Tools
[TC2] Craft Magic Arms and Armor [Item Creation]
You can create magic weapons, armor, and shields.
Prerequisite: CL 5.
Benefit: You can create any magic weapon, armor, or shield whose prerequisites you meet, following the rules for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat in the PH and DMG. Weapon special abilities that are listed as having a gp value, rather than a bonus value, and weapon augment crystals also require the Craft Magic Tools feat. Armor special abilities that are listed as having a gp value, rather than a bonus value, and armor and shield augment crystals also require the Craft Magic Garments feat. (This feat subsumes the Craft Crystal Weapon feat in Oriental Adventures, though the crafter must still meet all other prerequisites for crafting crystal weapons.)
[TC3] Craft Magic Garments [Item Creation]
You can create magic garments and other items that fill one of six specific body slots.
Prerequisite: CL 5.
Benefit: You can create any magic garment or other item that fills a body, feet, hands, shoulders, torso, or waist body slot and whose prerequisites you meet, following the rules for the Craft Wondrous Item feat in the PH and DMG.
If you also have Craft Magic Arms and Armor, you can craft certain armor and shield enhancements and augment crystals (see Craft Magic Arms and Armor above).
[TC4] Craft Magic Grafts [Item Creation]
You can apply a certain type of grafts to other living creatures or to yourself.
Prerequisite: CL 5 or HD 5 with the supernatural abilities.
Benefit: You can create and attach grafts whose prerequisites you meet, following the rules for rules for creating grafts in Magic of Eberron (which supersede those in the Fiend Folio, Libris Mortis, Lords of Madness, Serpent Kingdoms, and Underdark).
You must be of the same race as the graft and have Heal 10 to create and attach the graft. However, if you are not of the same race as the graft, you may do so by meeting different additional prerequisites, as follows.
[TC5] If you have Heal 10 and Knowledge (arcana) 10, you can graft aboleth grafts.
If you have Heal 10 and Knowledge (arcana) 10, you can graft beholder grafts.
If you have Heal 10 and Knowledge (religion) 10, you can graft deathless grafts.
If you have Heal 10 and Knowledge (the planes) 10, you can graft elemental grafts.
If you have Heal 10 and Knowledge (the planes) 10, you can graft fiendish grafts.
If you have Heal 10 and Knowledge (arcana) 10, you can graft illithid grafts.
If you have Heal 10 and Knowledge (nature) 10, you can graft plant grafts.
If you have Heal 10 and Knowledge (arcana) 10, you can graft sithilar grafts.
If you have Heal 10 and Knowledge (religion) 10, you can graft undead grafts.
[TC6] Craft Magic Jewelry [Item Creation]
You can create magic jewelry and other items that fill one of six specific body slots.
Prerequisite: CL 5.
Benefit: You can create any magic jewelry or other item that fills an arms, face, head, either ring, or throat, body slot and whose prerequisites you meet, following the rules for the Craft Wondrous Item and Forge Ring feats in the PH and DMG.
[TC7] Craft Magic Potions [Item Creation]
You can create magic potions, which carry spells within themselves.
Prerequisite: CL 3.
Benefit: You can create potions of any 3rd-level or lower spell, following the rules for the Brew Potion feat in the PH and DMG.
If you also have CL 3 and Profession (herbalist) 2, you can create infusions, following the rules for the Create Infusion feat in Masters of the Wild.
If you also have a CL 5 and Profession (alchemy) 5, you can create spellvials, following the rules for the alchemist savant prestige class in Magic of Eberron.
If you also have a CL 7 and Spellcraft 10, you can brew potions with spells of any level that you can cast as the master alchemist prestige class in Magic of Faerûn.
[TC8] Craft Magic Scrolls [Item Creation]
You can create magic scrolls, from which you or another spellcaster can cast the scribed spells.
Prerequisite: CL 1, literate in an alphabet (not language).
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know, following the rules for the Scribe Scroll feat in the PH and DMG.
If you are a crusader or swordsage of at least level 1, you can instead scribe martial scripts, following the rules for the Scribe Martial Script feat in Tome of Battle. You may treat your crusader or swordsage level as a caster level for meeting the prerequisites for the sub-feats below.
If you also have CL 3 and Craft (calligraphy or painting) 2, you can create magic tattoos, following the rules for the Tattoo Magic feat in Lords of Darkness or Races of Faerûn.
If you also have CL 3 in a divine class and Craft (metalworking, calligraphy, gemcutting, stonecarving, woodcarving) 2, you can inscribe runes, following the rules for the Inscribe Rune feat in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and Player’s Guide to the Faerûn.
If you also have CL 9 and Spellcraft 5, you can etch minor schema, following the rules for the Etch Schema feat in Magic of Eberron.
[TC9] Craft Magic Talismans [Item Creation]
You can create magic fetishes, single-use magic items that carry spells within themselves.
Prerequisite: CL 1, Int 13.
Benefit: You can create a single-use magic talisman, imbuing with the power of any 3rd-level or lower spell, following the rules for the Craft Talisman feat in Oriental Adventures.
If you also have CL 3 in an arcane class and Craft (gemcutting) 2, you can attune gems, following the rules for the Attune Gem feat in Magic of Faerûn.
If you also have CL 5, you can craft skull talismans, following the rules for the Craft Skull Talismans feat in Frostburn.
[TC10] Craft Magic Tools [Item Creation]
You can create a wide variety of magic tools, items that must be held or otherwise manipulated in order to function (rather than simply being worn), not including items crafted by other feats, including items that take up a body slot, shields, weapons, scrolls, potions, talismans, wands, scepters, staffs, grafts, and constructs.
Prerequisite: CL 3.
Benefit: You can create any magic tool, not including items that take up a body slot, shields, weapons, scrolls, potions, talismans, wands, scepters, staffs, grafts, and constructs, following the rules for the Craft Rod and Craft Wondrous Item feats in the PH and DMG.
If you also have Craft Magic Arms and Armor, you can craft certain weapon enhancements and augment crystals (see Craft Magic Arms and Armor above). (Rods that double as magic weapons also require Craft Magic Arms and Armor.)
If you also have CL 5 and Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 2, you can craft wondrous architecture as detailed in the Stronghold Builder’s Guide.
If you also have CL 9 and Knowledge (arcana) 5, you can craft rune circles, following the rules for the Craft Rune Circles feat in Races of Stone.
If you also have CL 9 and Knowledge (the planes) 5, you can bind elementals to create magic transports, following the rules for the Bind Elemental feat in Eberron Campaign Setting.
If you also have CL 17 and Knowledge (arcana) 10, you can craft portals, following the rules for the Craft Portal feat in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting or Stronghold Builder’s Guide.
[TC11] Craft Magic Wands [Item Creation]
You can create magic wands, scepters, and staffs, each of which as holds a spells or spells.
Prerequisite: CL 5.
Benefit: You can create a magic wand of any 4th-level or lower spell you know, following the rules for the Craft Wand feat in the PH and DMG.
If you also have CL 7 and Spellcraft 5, you can craft a magic scepter that holds any one or two 7th-level or lower spells you know, following the rules for the Craft Scepter feat in Lost Empires of Faerûn.
If you also have CL 11 and Spellcraft 10, you can craft a magic staff that holds multiple spells you know, following the rules for the Craft Staff feat in the PH and DMG.
If you also have CL 11 and Spellcraft 15, you can craft runestaffs as detailed in the Magic Item Compendium.
Psionic Item Creation Feats
The above feats do not include the various psionic item creation, but DMs can do so by replacing Spellcraft requirements above with Psicraft and easily as follows.
Craft Cognizance Crystal could be folded into Craft Magic Tools.[TC12]
Craft Dorje and Craft Psicrown should be combined into a new feat, Craft Psi-Gems, in a manner similar to the new Craft Magic Wands above. Crafting psicrowns should also require a CL 11 and Psicraft 10.
Craft Psionic Arms and Armor could be folded into Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Craft Psionic Constructs could be folded into Craft Construct.
Craft Universal Item could be folded into Craft Magic Garments, Craft Magic Jewelry, and Craft Magic Tools as appropriate.
Imprint (Power) Stone could be folded into Craft Magic Talismans.
Scribe Tattoo could be folded into Craft Magic Scrolls.
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[TC1]I hate that non-spellcasters can’t create alchemical items, especially because after a few levels, most alchemical items are of drastically less use to spellcasters, making Craft (alchemy) a waste of skill points for most spellcasters. This feat allows for the expert MacGyver-type of character.
[TC2]The biggest change here is the explicit addition of when you need other feats in addition to Craft Magic Arms and Armor. This reduces the value of this feat somewhat.
[TC3]This feat was pulled out of Craft Wondrous Item and covers half of the critical body slot magic items. It covers less magic items in the Magic Item Compendium than Craft Magic Garments does, but this is balanced out by its use with Craft Magic Arms and Armor. I’ve also increased its CL to 5 to further distinguish it from Craft Magic Tools.
[TC4]This feat replaces the Graft Flesh feat and similar feats found in the noted sources.
[TC5]In original Graft Flesh feat, you needed to be of the same race to use most grafts. While the Magic of Eberron feats don’t require you to have any ranks in Heal. These struck me as odd, so I tweaked the additional requirements a fair bit.
[TC6]See Craft Magic Garments comment. Note, there is really no reason for Forge Rings to have such a high CL It combines parts of Craft Wondrous Item with Forge Ring, making it much better than Forge Ring, but probably less powerful than Craft Wondrous Item. I did increase the CL though compared to Craft Magic Tools to match Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Magic Garments.
[TC7]So I added in infusions (changing survival for the less obviously useful herbalist, but lowering the ranks), spellvials copied from the PrC, and advanced potions from another PrC. In effect, this blurs the lines between potions and scrolls, which I think is fine game balance and mechanically, but not as much thematically.
[TC8]I tweaked the prereqs of the various subfeats, increasing the Craft prereqs and lowering the CL for Etch Schema. I also added literacy to the base feat.
In effect, this blurs the lines between potions and scrolls, which I think is fine game balance and mechanically, but not as much thematically.
[TC9]This one was a bit of mishmash as I looked at the item creation feats left over, but I think it works. I also lowered the Craft Skull Talisman CL to 5 to keep all of the CLs odd, plus it seemed high and increased the Craft requirement to 2 (1 just seems to low).
[TC10]Craft Wondrous Item got hacked in three. It was too powerful compared to the other feats, but I added in Craft Rod, making it more useful than Craft Rod on its own. I also clarified the crafting of wondrous architecture and added in the magic vehicles crafted from bind elementals (but added the Knowledge prereq). I also kept portals in the feat and felt that rune circles were some sort of cross between architecture and portals in some ways, so added them in with a Knowledge prereq, which I then added to portals as well. Lastly, it’s utility is in part preserved by it’s use with Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Ultimately, however, it still includes most of the spellcasting enhancers, metamgaic rods, pearls of power (and cognizance crystals), etc.
[TC11]I never understood why we needed three feats for spell trigger items, when we could just increase the CL and call it a day, so that’s what I did, also increasing the Craft Staff CL to 13 and adding the Spellcraft prereq to craft runestaffs.
[TC12]There are very few psionic items to begin with and pearls of power are included in Craft Magic Tools, so I folded cognizance crystals into tools as well.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2008 : 19:16:32
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Thank You Tom!!!
We discussed some of this in the Kara-Tur Redux and Elven Netbook threads over at WotC, when we realized how cumbersome and inconsistent the system was.
I have to go out now, but I will pick over this with a fine tooth come when I come back - so far I'm really liking what I see (the Craft Jewelry was even one I suggested on one of those threads, so I'm LOVING that).
One of 3e's biggest faults was the poor handling of Feat Balance - as you have pointed out, oft times you could find a much better Feat in another book that did what you wanted plus gave other benefits.
Now that the direction of 4e is to grant Feats at every level, I think this 'trimming of the fat' is a long time in coming. I like the idea of more focused feats given more often, which helps players customize their characters better. Big, fat catch-all Feats, like Craft Wonderous Item, should be done away with altogether, IMHO.
Edit: Would you require the appropriate Skill for crafting arms and armor? I think that would help eliminate some of the 'all-encompassing' aspect of that feat as well. Perhaps either a pre-requisite of the appropriate Blacksmithing skill, or the assistance of someone with the skill at the appropriate level.
Also, there has been some discussion as the manufacture of Smokepowder in the Realms. Since it required the use of the Alchemy skill, it precludes non-MUs from creating it, yet the Kara-Tur setting seems to indicate that Smokepowder is fairly common (for display purposes). I suggested that K-T has a unique NPC Expert class called Shou Alchemist, that would allow non-Mages to craft it.
Now you got me thinking (along the same lines as the weapons and armor), that perhaps ANYONE can make the stuff (after all, according to the Watercourse trilogy, it is chemically IDENTICAL to Black Powder), but a spell is required to 'activate' it within the Realms. There is something about the Realms that does not allow Gunpowder to function normally, yet you can actually make it in the Realms and bring it outside of Realmspace and it will work. 
So heres my new thought on the matter - its a seperate SKILL, not Feat (Craft Gunpowder), but it requires a mage to use the Activate Smokepowder spell to get it to function in Realmspace.
That spell still limits the availabiltity (after all, how many mages are going to bother to learn it?), but allows for greater amounts to be created that can then be 'magicked' into functionality.
Activate Smokepowder
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4, Wujen 3, Earth/Fire 3, Gondsmen 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 5 minutes per pound handled
Range: Close (5 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels
Target: Blackpowder/Gunpowder, up to ½ lb. per level of caster.
Effects: Allows Gunpowder to function normally (Smokepowder)
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Special*
This spell allows a caster to override Gond's edict disallowing Gunpowder/Blackpowder from functioning in Realmspace. This spell does not actually transform the substance in anyway, but rather allows it to function as it would outside of Realmspace. Blackpowder enchanted this way becomes known as Smokepowder, and can be disenchanted by the same means as other magical items (dead magic zones, Disjunction, etc...). Disenchanted Blackpowder can be re-enchanted into Smokepowder if it loses it enchantment for any reason.
*Gond does not allow mortals to override his edicts lightly; he is a rather fickle god and decides each casting on a case-by-case basis. Everytime this spell is cast the MU must roll a D20. On a roll of a natural "1", roll again and consult the following table:
Roll ........... Result
1 ..... Massive Explosion, equivalent to a fireball cast by a 10th lev Mage, materials destroyed
2-5 .. Small Explosion, equivalent to a Fireball cast by a 4th lev mage, all materials destroyed
6-10 . Materials destroyed
11-19 Spell failure, must wait 24 hours before attempting the spell again
20+ .. Gond's Blessing. Materials become Thunder Powder, and ALL effects are doubled for use (Fireworks display size, Weapon Range, ANY backfire chances Dms may apply, etc...)
Gondsmen can apply ¼ their level (rounded up) to this second roll.
Any Thoughts on this? I think it rectifies quite a bit of the 'mystique' surrounding Smokepowder, and all of the disparate lore.
Double Edit: I just realized your very first Feat precludes the need for any of my rules. 
I should read through someone's post MORE THOROUGHLY before responding...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Mar 2008 19:25:55 |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2008 : 20:18:43
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| That's great ..Many thanks.. |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2008 : 04:27:20
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Excellent work, Tom! I find this much more "useful" that the official version.  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2008 : 02:53:09
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Thanks folks.
Markus, I don't think I would require a craft skill for Craft Arms and Armor because spellcasters are less likely to be the beneficiaries of taht particular feat (the warrior and even sneaky types are), especially as wizards with their bonus feats are the most likely to have Craft feats. Otherwise, the poor fighter in the party is going to be the one stuck paying full price. This at least was my experience in actual gaming groups.
I kept some of the Craft and Profession requirements for some of the Craft feats that became aspects of overarching feats, however, mostly for flavor so that they did keep some of their cultural or whatever aspect and weren't seen as just a gimme. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2008 : 15:02:30
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| I really like these item creation feats Tom, thanks! |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2008 : 18:03:05
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Tom,
Cudos, this is REALLY helpful and will be put to use in our campaign immediately! |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2008 : 18:36:18
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This looks really great and I will get my teeth into it and as we start Night Below again, I may try and offer my players these alternatives straight away.
I read about warblades and crusaders, yet perhaps the odd word on invocations (warlocks) and mysteries (shadowcasters et al)? |
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Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 17 Mar 2008 18:37:29 |
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2008 : 17:27:54
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Tom,
Have you considered if the Contigant Spell feat and Spell Mantle would fit into any of these or perhaps to combine to two and add them here? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2008 : 17:37:47
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I believe Dagnirion is working on something like that for the Elves of Faerûn Netbook - we had some discussion about it awhile back.
It would be a Feat progression from simple personal Mantles, to Spell-Spheres & Spell-Webs, on up to Weaving Mythals. Basically, a person would gain greater and greater skill with inter-twining different magics together to create new effects.
Don't know how far he got, though.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2008 : 22:56:15
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Thanks again everyone. Glad others find it useful.
Zanan, warlocks and shadowcasters currently use the exsiting item creation feats, so I didn't include them. The reason for including the Tome of Battle classes is because they were given yet another new feat, which would be okay unless they were multiclassed. Then they would need both feats to make both kinds of what are essentially scrolls, which didn't seem worthwhile and actually more like an unnecessary penalty to me.
Alorin, I excluded several item creation feats from my list, mostly those I would describe as “Meta” Item Creation Feats, including:
• Craft Contingent Spell (CArc, UnE; CL 11)
• Portal Master (PGtF; craft wondrous item)
• Sanctify Relic (MC; any item creation feat)
• Attune Magic Weapon (EbCS; CL 5, craft magic arms and armor)
• Exceptional Artisan (EbCS; any item creation feat)
• Extra Rings (EbCS; CL 12, Forge Ring/Craft Magic Jewelry)
• Extraordinary Artisan (EbCS; any item creation feat)
• Legendary Artisan (EbCS; any item creation feat)
• Wand Mastery (EbCs; CL 9, Craft Wand/Craft Magic Wand)
• Dorje Mastery (MagEbb; ML 9, Craft Dorje)
And one feat that was so setting and city specific that it seemed a waste:
• Improved Flight Item (Sharn; CL 3, craft wondrous item, knowledge (the planes) 6)
That said, I really hemmed and hawed on Contingent Spell as it's somewhere between a real item creation feat and a meta one. I also considered adding in some form of mantles, but in the ended, I punted as it was going to require a lot more rule reworking and I wasn't sure if the payoff was going to be worth it. That said, I look forward to seeing what Dagnirion comes up because it is an unsatisfying (but still acceptable IMO) aspect of the existing rule set.
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 20:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Thanks again everyone. Glad others find it useful.
Zanan, warlocks and shadowcasters currently use the exsiting item creation feats, so I didn't include them. The reason for including the Tome of Battle classes is because they were given yet another new feat, which would be okay unless they were multiclassed. Then they would need both feats to make both kinds of what are essentially scrolls, which didn't seem worthwhile and actually more like an unnecessary penalty to me.
Alorin, I excluded several item creation feats from my list, mostly those I would describe as “Meta” Item Creation Feats, including:
• Craft Contingent Spell (CArc, UnE; CL 11)
• Portal Master (PGtF; craft wondrous item)
• Sanctify Relic (MC; any item creation feat)
• Attune Magic Weapon (EbCS; CL 5, craft magic arms and armor)
• Exceptional Artisan (EbCS; any item creation feat)
• Extra Rings (EbCS; CL 12, Forge Ring/Craft Magic Jewelry)
• Extraordinary Artisan (EbCS; any item creation feat)
• Legendary Artisan (EbCS; any item creation feat)
• Wand Mastery (EbCs; CL 9, Craft Wand/Craft Magic Wand)
• Dorje Mastery (MagEbb; ML 9, Craft Dorje)
And one feat that was so setting and city specific that it seemed a waste:
• Improved Flight Item (Sharn; CL 3, craft wondrous item, knowledge (the planes) 6)
That said, I really hemmed and hawed on Contingent Spell as it's somewhere between a real item creation feat and a meta one. I also considered adding in some form of mantles, but in the ended, I punted as it was going to require a lot more rule reworking and I wasn't sure if the payoff was going to be worth it. That said, I look forward to seeing what Dagnirion comes up because it is an unsatisfying (but still acceptable IMO) aspect of the existing rule set.
Have you considered looking at a few of the cool creation feats in Monte Cook's Arcane Might book?
I'd like to see your take on where those feats belong in this reorg. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2008 : 20:06:11
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| If using the Complete Book of Eldritch Might, I would consider folding Etch Object Rune into Create Magic Scrolls, perhaps with some sort of Craft (calligraphy) 2 or similar requirement, and Manufacture Magic Poison into Create Magic Potion with an additional Craft (poisonmaking) 2 requirement. The others, Create Soul Magic Spell, Implant Gambit, and Life to the Inanimate fall more under what I would describe as a the "meta" item creation feats. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2008 : 18:31:07
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Thanks again everyone. Glad others find it useful.
Zanan, warlocks and shadowcasters currently use the exsiting item creation feats, so I didn't include them. The reason for including the Tome of Battle classes is because they were given yet another new feat, which would be okay unless they were multiclassed. Then they would need both feats to make both kinds of what are essentially scrolls, which didn't seem worthwhile and actually more like an unnecessary penalty to me.
Alorin, I excluded several item creation feats from my list, mostly those I would describe as “Meta” Item Creation Feats, including:
• Craft Contingent Spell (CArc, UnE; CL 11)
• Portal Master (PGtF; craft wondrous item)
• Sanctify Relic (MC; any item creation feat)
• Attune Magic Weapon (EbCS; CL 5, craft magic arms and armor)
• Exceptional Artisan (EbCS; any item creation feat)
• Extra Rings (EbCS; CL 12, Forge Ring/Craft Magic Jewelry)
• Extraordinary Artisan (EbCS; any item creation feat)
• Legendary Artisan (EbCS; any item creation feat)
• Wand Mastery (EbCs; CL 9, Craft Wand/Craft Magic Wand)
• Dorje Mastery (MagEbb; ML 9, Craft Dorje)
And one feat that was so setting and city specific that it seemed a waste:
• Improved Flight Item (Sharn; CL 3, craft wondrous item, knowledge (the planes) 6)
That said, I really hemmed and hawed on Contingent Spell as it's somewhere between a real item creation feat and a meta one. I also considered adding in some form of mantles, but in the ended, I punted as it was going to require a lot more rule reworking and I wasn't sure if the payoff was going to be worth it. That said, I look forward to seeing what Dagnirion comes up because it is an unsatisfying (but still acceptable IMO) aspect of the existing rule set.
Digging up an older thread here, but Tom, what would you suggest we do with all these "meta" item creation feats? Use them as is, with the appropriate substitute feat above as prerequisites? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2008 : 19:21:43
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| Yep, that's pretty much what I'd do Hawkins. Most of the "meta" item creation feats are pretty worthwhile as is or more geared toward NPCs in any case. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2008 : 00:49:54
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I just discovered Tom's March 2008 post "Reorg of Item Creation Feats" --
Isn't it better to restrict the creation of scepters and such to those who take additional highly specialized feats to represent their study of Netherese magic and other "forbidden" lore? That would give them a powerful and mysterious "Neener-neener, you can't make this!" skill/abilitity to hold over others; otherwise, wouldn't Netherese scepters and mighty rune staffs and such-like be all over the Realms? Inquiring DMs want to know! Alternatively, since I use the skill of <cue reverb> "Knowledge (FORBIDDEN Lore)" in my game, would it be reasonable to say, "You can make this dingus if you have this many ranks in FL as well as that number in 'Craft (Whatever)'"? Personally, I think that would be a feasible way to deal with wannabe-liches, too: "You can't craft a phylactery until you have n number of Caster Levels, the feat 'Create Magical Jewelry' <or whatever feat is appropriate>, x number of ranks in the skill 'Craft (Appropriate Skill)' and x number of ranks of 'Knowledge (Forbidden Lore)' also." The capability to make dinguses would be there, but it would be expensive and not require an extremely valuable feat. <Following the example of Call of Cthulhu, Knowledge (Forbidden Lore) can't be bought with skill points, it has to be earned ... painfully > Opinions?
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Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2008 : 00:58:32
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Jamallo, you could do all that you suggest, but I'm hesitant to add additional knowledge skills to the game, since like the expansion of item creation feats, they just diminish the existing ones. To me that's what Knowledge (arcana) is for, but I'd see no reason to increase the arcana DCs for "forbidden lore," but that strays off the topic. That said, if you use FL in your game, your prerequisite sounds very reasonable to me.
I also don't have a problem putting some restrictions on magic items to keep them hidden in the past or distinct to one culture, but I would make those restrictions contingent on discovering the existence of such items. That is, is the ability to make a scepter really all that impressive compared to a wand or staff, nope, so why should it be so hard to do. If a player with no knowledge of scepters came up with the idea on their own (not too hard), I certainly wouldn't say no. It's not like they are artifacts or particularly more powerful than existing items, on the contrary their completely on par with items the players can already make, and if the feat didn't exist would make with Craft Wondrous Item alone. Moreover, since you can create just about anything with Craft Wondrous Item as it exiss in the 3.5 E rules, making even ancient magics within reach if you have the imagination. So given all that, I don't see much reason to put too many limits on what folks can make or not. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2008 : 02:36:16
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Since I already use Knowledge (Forbidden Lore)*, and ranks in it are imposed by the DM rather than bought by the player (or earned by the player through grueling and intentional role-play of the character), it's not as if I am imposing some new, serious burden on the players. On the contrary, I think of it as reward (albeit a sharp-edged one) for certain life-events which are deserving of more recognition than mere experience points. If the paladin has literally gone to Hell and come back, I think that there should be a special reward for that, differentiated from the reward for chopping a goblin in twain; in my game that takes the form of ranks in Knowledge (Forbidden Lore) -- yeah, sure any Summoner can use his spellbook as a telephone directory for the Infernal regions, but is he on a first-name basis with any glabrezu?
I am also concentrating on some of the ancient history of the Realms (as in Lost Empires of Faerun). A player might be able to think up Pandorym, but I don't think any ordinary character ever would. Give a character some ranks of Knowledge (Forbidden Lore) and suddenly there's an explanation (however slender) which allows a way to role-play the character coming to the realization that something like Pandorym can be created. Creating it would be the reward for spending six levels drooling all over himself because the horrors of the magical erotic graffiti of Inupras drove him half-way 'round the twist. (Doesn't that sound more Realmsian than, "Excuse me, Librarian, may I please read the Necronomicon?") Anyone who would create anything like Pandorym is probably mad as a hatter anyway.
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* I have been rather free with that phrase "Knowledge (Forbidden Lore)." For those unfamiliar with the Cthulhu Mythos and Call of Cthulu roleplaying, check out pages 104-206 of the 3E Unearthed Arcana book, with particular attention to the big box on page 198.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 11 Jul 2008 03:24:58 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2008 : 15:51:36
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| Jamallo, if the system you have works for your group, I think that's what's most important. Go with it. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work, and more importantly, it sounds like it does for you all. Whether or not I use the system in my group is irrelevant as each group has a different dynamic. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2008 : 06:18:35
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Thanks. I was reluctant to insert overtly Cthulhoid influences into my game until I read the sanity rules suggestions in the 3E ]i]Unearthed Arcana, wherein WotC effectively said, "We know you've been dying to do this for years, DMs, so do so with our blessings." I did. So far the PCs have only had to deal with demons and devils and the occasional aberration, but once they stumbled upon something burrowing alongside the sewers of Waterdeep which could safely be described as a dhole -- a small one,[/i] because it was only able to swallow one PC and one NPC.
In search of an artful way of having a PC acquire the skills and feats necessary to do battle with what are quaintly called "abominations" in my campaign I monitor each new "weapon quality" which publishers propose and think of how to integrate useful ones into the weapons of NPCs so that the players may know that such things are possible. Some of capital-a Abominations will definitely require Epic arms and armor and/or Epic spells to defeat, so tell us, Tom, would you extend your feat proposals into Epic level by just tacking "Epic" on to them and waiving level caps, or would you do something different to reflect "a whole 'nother level"?
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2008 : 22:34:36
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| I'm not a huge fan of or expert on the 3E epic rules, but my initial thought is to have a craft epic magic items creation feat (perhaps with a prereq of 25 ranks in arcana and spellcraft) and then it automatically applies to every standard non-epic magic creation feat you have. For example, if you had craft arms and armor and craft wondrous items and then got craft epic magic items, you could then craft epic arms, armor, and wondrous items. Thoughts? |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2008 : 23:58:33
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I'm not a huge fan of or expert on the 3E epic rules, but my initial thought is to have a craft epic magic items creation feat (perhaps with a prereq of 25 ranks in arcana and spellcraft) and then it automatically applies to every standard non-epic magic creation feat you have. For example, if you had craft arms and armor and craft wondrous items and then got craft epic magic items, you could then craft epic arms, armor, and wondrous items. Thoughts?
Sounds good to me. I have been looking for ways to cut the cost of crafting things (in feats and other ways). I am thinking about just eliminating the XP cost unless it is an artifact or relic or the spell required already has an XP cost. That is one of the biggest things that keeps me (when am a player) and my players from every crafting anything magical. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 13 Jul 2008 00:01:11 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2008 : 00:19:36
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Tom, here are the epic craft feats, as per the SRD:
Craft Epic Magic Arms And Armor
Craft Epic Rod
Craft Epic Staff
Craft Epic Wondrous Item
Forge Epic Ring
Scribe Epic Scroll
I would hesitate to group these 6 feats under one feat. The ability to craft magic items is a huge asset for a party (my campaign had a crafter at the mid-levels (i.e. 7 to 15), and he saved thousands of gold pieces to the party; crafting takes a lot of time though, and can disrupt fast-paced campaigns).
Moreover, epic magic items are so powerful (much more powerful than minor and major artifacts IMHO) that, as a DM, keeping these feats separate (i.e. as opposed to regrouping them under one feat) is one of the only way to restrict the incoming flow of epic magic items in my campaign (now at APL 24). If they don't have the epic crafting feats and absolutely want a given epic item, they must perform a quest to find it, and depending on the quest, may still need to pay for it in full once they find it! (i.e. they find an old lich in a cave, one vastly more powerful than they, and must negotiate a gold/magic item trade for it...)
Case in point, look at the "Boots of Swiftness," below (a 256,000 gp magic item one of my players, who plays a cleric of Lathander, wanted, and asked me for the permission to "purchase" it in Waterdeep... I informed him that this was a no-no...) Note how powerful this item is, its price, and then go compare the item's power to the major artifacts listed in the DMG. You will see that nothing in the DMG even comes close to this in power (which is why I have decided to price minor artifacts to 125,000 gp and major ones to 225,000 gp, plus or minus a few thousands, depending on the artifact)
Boots of Swiftness
These shoes grant their wearer a +6 enhancement bonus to Dexterity. The wearer’s speed doubles (this does not stack with any magical or supernatural enhancement to speed), he or she gains the evasion ability (as the rogue class feature), and the wearer’s jumping distance is not limited by his or her height. The wearer gains a +20 competence bonus on Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble checks. Three times per day, the wearer can utter a command word to activate the boots’ haste power (as the haste spell, lasts 20 rounds).
Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Epic Wondrous Item, cat’s grace, expeditious retreat, haste, jump; Market Price: 256,000 gp; Weight: 1 lb.
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2008 : 15:13:45
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| Very nice... |
'Everyone dies...I only choose the time and place for a few.' --Eric Destler |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2008 : 00:56:09
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As a player I would be inclined to agree with Tom and Hawkins because it makes it easier for my characters to become ultra-powerful; as a DM and a scholar, I think a better in-game approximation of what "historical" makers of magic items "actually" did is to stick with what we have and require a separate Epic feat for each category of dingus.
I would hesitate to describe Epic items as more powerful than artifacts; rather, I'd consider such an item to be capable of becoming an artifact, as did Fzoul's mace, but the salient divine ability of "Craft Artifact" is required for the "E ticket" items which need to be unmade, as opposed to just destroyed. A non-divine being could make a super-strong rope, but it wouldn't be as indestructible as Gleipnir, which binds the Fenris Wolf, and whose failure is a highlight of the foretold end of the current age. A non-divine being could make a super-strong net, but it wouldn't hold two intermediate deities, as does the net of Hephaestus -- if the net was a "real" thing and not an alchemical allegory (see below). Indeed, it's his very ability to bind demigods which enabled Zagig Yragerne to become the demigod Zagyg.
Famous magic item creators in "history" have tended to be specialists. Wagner has Alberich make The Ring, but little or nothing else (although he possesses much, including the helmet Tarnkappe), while Mime reforges Gran/Nothung but isn't associated with the creation of any non-weapon which I can recall. Arachne was a weaver (but her tapestry is only magical in a gaming context).
Ilmarinen (of Kalevala fame) was among the most versatile of craftsmen, creator of the Sampo, the mill which ground out salt, grain, and money. He also made a golden bride automaton, which lacked life, and a new sun and moon, which lacked the capacity to self-illuminate. The last three would probably count as constructs, but how would the Sampo be classified: a construct or a tool? It's worth noting that his last three works were not functional as intended, which perhaps separates them as Epic creations instead of artifacts.
On the other hand, Norse mythology tells us that the dwarves Dvalin and the Sons of Ivaldi, made "the ship of Freyr (Skidbladnir) and the spear of Odin (Gungnir) as well as the golden hair of Sif" -- a tool, a weapon; Sif's hair might have been a piece of jewelry or clothing, or possibly a graft, which would be a literal interpretation of the sources. Subsequently, Brokkr and his brother Eitri (or Sindri) made "the boar of Freyr (Gullinbursti), the ring of Odin (Draupnir) and the hammer of Thor (Mjolnir)" -- a construct, a piece of jewelry, and a weapon.
"Hephaestus also crafted much of the other magnificent equipment of the gods, and almost any finely-wrought metalwork imbued with powers that appears in Greek myth is said to have been forged by Hephaestus: Hermes's winged helmet and sandals, the Aegis breastplate, Aphrodite's famed girdle, Agamemnon's staff of office, Achilles' armor, Heracles' bronze clappers, Helios' chariot as well as his own due to his lameness, the shoulder of Pelops, Eros' bow and arrows. Hephaestus worked with the help of the chthonic Cyclopes, his assistants in the forge. He also built automatons of metal to work for him." The "bronze clappers" of Heracles were crotali, or castanets, which he used to frighten the Stymphalian birds, which would make them tools according to Tom's list. The shoulder of Pelops was made of ivory and inserted into his body as a prosthetic (with no particular magical power other than functionality); that make it a graft. Hephaestus also famously crafted a net with which he ensnared Aphrodite and Ares, whom he caught cheating on him, flagrante delicto; a modern alchemist has shown that Isaac Newton interpreted that myth as a cryptic chemical formulation and was able to concoct a "net" of crystals (?) after doing some alchemical jiggery-pokery with copper (sacred to Aphrodite) and iron (obviously sacred to Ares); that would suggest that Hephaestus was an alchemist as well as a maker of arms and armor, garments, wands, and grafts. Hephaestus may also have created the bronze construct Talos.
Deities and Demigods sums up all of the magic item creation abilities of Hephaestus with the single salient divine ability "Craft Artifact." which is missing from the chart on page 32, but which is described in the text on page 37. Hephaestus also has the "Divine Creation" salient ability.
Perhaps the two main differences between Epic items created by mortals and artifacts created by the gods are that the gods can work their wills with a single divine salient ability instead of a half-dozen feats, and the gods can impart actuality to their creations: a sun and moon or a being made by a real creator god are truly functional or truly alive, whereas constructs made by a mortal can only imitate the real things upon which they are modeled.
To those who want to study this in more depth, I commend the two volumes of The Facts on File Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, and the two volumes of Fantastic Treasures, a Role-Aids book of "hundreds of enchanted weapons and items from myth and folklore," which I bought for a few bucks each from Amazon.com.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 18:33:13
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PDK, did your crafter unbalance the party? I guess that's really the question. In general, I've found and I think WotC has said several times that 3E parties are generally underpowered in magic items. (Plus the XP penalty at epic levels gets pretty high -- the crafter can't afford to just make everyone magic items and stay on par with the rest of the group, unless the DM provides some avenue for him to do so.) That said, I'm sure it varies by group.
As for epic items being more powerful than non-epic artifacts, again to me it's more of a balance issue. You can always make more powerful artifacts so they keep their luster.
But all of that brings me back to not loving the 3E epic rules for a variety of reasons. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 18:45:01
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
But all of that brings me back to not loving the 3E epic rules for a variety of reasons.
That is why I am hoping that Paizo will eventually get around to making them pretty with the Pathfinder RPG.  |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Reorg of Item Creation Feats
