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coastiemike
Acolyte
18 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 02:34:17
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How all. I am planning a game for my group and need the quick, cliff-note info for the following:
1) What was the initial event that led to the fall of the mythal around Myth Drannor? I thought I had read about a dragon escaping or having something to do with it but just can't find it again.
2) What led to the fall of Netheril? Was it when Karsus died, the magic failed and caused his giant city to fail, creating a domino effect? If not, then what was the initial event that led to the fall of Netheril?
Thanks in advance for any help.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 06:09:23
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quote:
The elves set the binding ritual so that the only key to freeing the infernal trio was when a "red dragon that never knew malice or greed in its heart flies over the Coronal's throne."
Page 13 of The Fall of Myth Drannor, which you can get for free from the Wizards downloads page. 
Netheril fell because Karsus stripped away the power of the goddess of magic, causing all magic to fail. It wasn't a domino effect; all the cities, wherever they were, suddenly tumbled down.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Mar 2008 06:12:35 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 13:39:26
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I always got the impression that the main reason for Myth Drannor's fall was that the different peoples of the city ceased respecting each other and stopped acting as a cohesive unit (which of course, made the city more vunerable).
I've always seen it as a morality tale of sorts (albeit one that's not fictional in the setting). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 13:46:08
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| What did Myth Drannor in were three mightily pissed off demons who got out of imprisonment after a couple of decades because some wizard decided to let is good red dragon fly across a spire in the city and thus create the only circumstances under which said prison would open. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 13:49:56
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I was wondering, why on earth would wardens create circumstances like that to open in the prison in the first place? Seems pointless to me.
I did download that sourcebook, but I'm away from my own computer at the moment. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 14:11:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
What did Myth Drannor in were three mightily pissed off demons who got out of imprisonment after a couple of decades because some wizard decided to let is good red dragon fly across a spire in the city and thus create the only circumstances under which said prison would open.
It had been 1800 years. I doubt Saeval Ammath had a clue that what he was doing would result in the freeing of the Trio Nefarious. It's a pretty safe bet that the triggering conditions for that prison -- or even its existence! -- were known to very few people, if any at all. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 14:22:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I was wondering, why on earth would wardens create circumstances like that to open in the prison in the first place? Seems pointless to me.
I did download that sourcebook, but I'm away from my own computer at the moment.
Magically speaking, creating a prison that can never be opened is pretty tough. It's easier to create one with a triggering mechanism, and then simply set that triggering mechanism to something incredibly unlikely. It's a pretty safe bet that there aren't many red dragons "that never knew malice or greed" in their hearts around to fly around in the Realms, much less over the Coronal's throne. Since red dragons pretty much exemplify malice and greed, finding one that has never known either is slightly less difficult than finding a vegan Malarite or a caring, generous priestess of Lolth. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 17:27:31
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| Thanks for explaining that, Wooly. Although, I think the examples YOU gave (ie. kind priestess of Lolth) would have been better than the one the elves actually used! I take it when the prison was created, no one was busy raising a kindly red dragon? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Mar 2008 17:27:54 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 17:54:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I was wondering, why on earth would wardens create circumstances like that to open in the prison in the first place? Seems pointless to me.
I did download that sourcebook, but I'm away from my own computer at the moment.
Magically speaking, creating a prison that can never be opened is pretty tough. It's easier to create one with a triggering mechanism, and then simply set that triggering mechanism to something incredibly unlikely. It's a pretty safe bet that there aren't many red dragons "that never knew malice or greed" in their hearts around to fly around in the Realms, much less over the Coronal's throne. Since red dragons pretty much exemplify malice and greed, finding one that has never known either is slightly less difficult than finding a vegan Malarite or a caring, generous priestess of Lolth.
It's kinda the same deal about the elves and how they never figured that Alias would be created, thus freeing Moander. When they sealed him away from Realmspace, how did they ever know that the key would be created. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 18:02:59
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I suppose the elves were short-sighted for once, and just winged a goofy trigger that they never thought would come true. Had they been genuinely concerned about making sure the trio's never released, they would have set the trigger as something like: "When a red dragon who has never known malice or greed mates with a silver dragon champion of Tiamat just above the Coronal's throne, causing their riders - a gentle priestess of Lloth and a vegan Malarite - fall from the dragons' backs and sing ancient elven hymns until they are pierced on the branches of two oak trees below."
Simply put, I guess the elves were tossing ideas around, and just picked the one that sounded the funniest. It was unlikely enough not to be analyzed further. The "real" reason, of course, is that it's a good plot hook. |
Edited by - IronAngel on 11 Mar 2008 18:05:07 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 18:05:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Thanks for explaining that, Wooly. Although, I think the examples YOU gave (ie. kind priestess of Lolth) would have been better than the one the elves actually used! I take it when the prison was created, no one was busy raising a kindly red dragon?
Correct. Garnet and Saeval Ammath both came along much later. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 18:07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
I suppose the elves were short-sighted for once, and just winged a goofy trigger that they never thought would come true. Had they been genuinely concerned about making sure the trio's never released, they would have set the trigger as something like: "When a red dragon who has never known malice or greed mates with a silver dragon champion of Tiamat just above the Coronal's throne, causing their riders - a gentle priestess of Lloth and a vegan Malarite - fall from the dragons' backs and sing ancient elven hymns until they are pierced on the branches of two oak trees below."
Simply put, I guess the elves were tossing ideas around, and just picked the one that sounded the funniest. It was unlikely enough not to be analyzed further. The "real" reason, of course, is that it's a good plot hook.
I'd hardly say they weren't concerned about it. They likely thought that if something is already insanely unlkely, it doesn't need to have more conditions (which could create a weakness in the binding) added on to it. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 20:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd hardly say they weren't concerned about it. They likely thought that if something is already insanely unlkely, it doesn't need to have more conditions (which could create a weakness in the binding) added on to it.
And I'd assume the more conditions you put then the harder it is to make the prison. The unlikelyhood of that particular occurrence probably made the spell quite difficult in the first place.
Also, Vegan Malarites is the best thing I've read in days, good job Wooly. |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2008 : 06:09:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I always got the impression that the main reason for Myth Drannor's fall was that the different peoples of the city ceased respecting each other and stopped acting as a cohesive unit (which of course, made the city more vunerable).
I most certainly agree. When the city's spirit of cooperation fell apart, then you had a war in the streets over who was the be the next Coronal, culminating in the Srinshee taking the Crownblade and departing Faerûn with it, the cohesiveness and morale were in the toilet before the trouble with fiends and the Army of Darkness ever began.  |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2008 : 23:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
The elves set the binding ritual so that the only key to freeing the infernal trio was when a "red dragon that never knew malice or greed in its heart flies over the Coronal's throne."
Page 13 of The Fall of Myth Drannor, which you can get for free from the Wizards downloads page.
Netheril fell because Karsus stripped away the power of the goddess of magic, causing all magic to fail. It wasn't a domino effect; all the cities, wherever they were, suddenly tumbled down.
At least two cities didn't fall, though: Shade (which went into the Plane of Shadow) and Opus (which was taken to the moon by a talking penguin). Some mythallars also survived to one degree or another.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 00:15:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
The elves set the binding ritual so that the only key to freeing the infernal trio was when a "red dragon that never knew malice or greed in its heart flies over the Coronal's throne."
Page 13 of The Fall of Myth Drannor, which you can get for free from the Wizards downloads page.
Netheril fell because Karsus stripped away the power of the goddess of magic, causing all magic to fail. It wasn't a domino effect; all the cities, wherever they were, suddenly tumbled down.
At least two cities didn't fall, though: Shade (which went into the Plane of Shadow) and Opus (which was taken to the moon by a talking penguin). Some mythallars also survived to one degree or another.
And three more cities were caught by Mystra 1.0 before they hit the ground. |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 11:13:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
At least two cities didn't fall, though: Shade (which went into the Plane of Shadow) and Opus (which was taken to the moon by a talking penguin). Some mythallars also survived to one degree or another.
...a talking penguin?!?   
Where does that come from? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 11:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
At least two cities didn't fall, though: Shade (which went into the Plane of Shadow) and Opus (which was taken to the moon by a talking penguin). Some mythallars also survived to one degree or another.
...a talking penguin?!?
Where does that come from?
Bloom County. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 13:36:37
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| I know the character you're talking about, but is that actually in canon? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 19:25:21
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I hate those Lunar Penguins, always dancin' around on the Moon, erasing the astronauts footprints...
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 20:18:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I know the character you're talking about, but is that actually in canon?
I know of no references to penguins in the Realms, save for the artifact Moonpenguin of Boof.
I'm assuming his talking penguin comment was a joke; I've seen nothing to indicate that any form of bird was involved in the saving of Selunarra. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 20:46:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I know the character you're talking about, but is that actually in canon?
I know of no references to penguins in the Realms, save for the artifact Moonpenguin of Boof.
Remember though, this is information coming from a Giant Space Hamster, so he may just be misleading to keep his spot atop the D&D critter pile. 
And to think, I actually got a full night of sleep... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2008 : 00:02:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I know the character you're talking about, but is that actually in canon?
I know of no references to penguins in the Realms, save for the artifact Moonpenguin of Boof.
There are penguins in the Realms -- they're referenced in both The Great Glacier and The Savage Frontier tomes. Ed also talked about penguins in his '04 and '05 "Spin a Yarn" tales.
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:16:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I know the character you're talking about, but is that actually in canon?
I know of no references to penguins in the Realms, save for the artifact Moonpenguin of Boof.
I'm assuming his talking penguin comment was a joke; I've seen nothing to indicate that any form of bird was involved in the saving of Selunarra.
Ah, OK. It is a cute joke though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:17:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I know the character you're talking about, but is that actually in canon?
I know of no references to penguins in the Realms, save for the artifact Moonpenguin of Boof.
There are penguins in the Realms -- they're referenced in both The Great Glacier and The Savage Frontier tomes. Ed also talked about penguins in his '04 and '05 "Spin a Yarn" tales.
So on Toril, penguins actually live near the North Pole. I see... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:46:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
There's polar bears too!
Well, that makes sense. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The fall of two empires
