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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2008 : 11:30:59
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Hi gang!
Well, I find myself in an interesting situation after the weeekend game. I'm currently running a western Heartlands campaign with a party of largely Neutral characters. However, thanks to some interesting choices, they've gotten themselves involved on the wrongside of a plot by a Vampire Lord (Westgate spreading it's influence in Iraebor) and I now find that one of the PCs, a cleric of Lathander is in serious danger of going into mega alignment and faith violation and I'm not quite sure of the best way to handle it.
The player assures me that his character is putting loyalty to his friends and companions first and that he may have a crisis of faith. But I'm not entirely certain a player character would so easily go down the path of the darkside as this one has. I won't say he's meta gaming but while I'm intruiged, I'm not convinced by what he wants to do with the character.
This is all the more complicated by the fact that the local Church of Lathander is likely to come into open conflict with the party if they go the route they're on now.
So I'm left with either seeing where he takes it or stepping in as DM and doing something about it, either as plot or just reigning him in.
I'd appreciate your thoughts.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2008 : 18:33:26
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| It'd be easier for me to give my opinion on the situation if you gave more details about it. What, exactly, has this cleric of Lathander done (or what does he plan to do) that you suspect would be an egregious violation of his faith and/or alignment? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2008 : 21:21:24
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Well, the situation at the moment is a guild war. The PCs are working for an Iraeborian merchant Noble, (they know he's a vampire, and has strong ties with Westgate) in exchange for his aid in dealing with an on going feud with a Malaurgrym BBEG. The Vamp has set them the task of weakening the church of Lathander in Iraebor, as word of his guild's nature and activities is slowly getting out and backstory-wise, he's not got pleasant memories of his previous encounters with Lathanderites.
I've got several pokers in the fire as far tasks go. Mainly stealing from the Temple, eliminating certain important clerics, disrupting morning prayers, networking with other churches, including some Velsharoon cultists allied with the Vamp.
Initially the set-up was meant to cause some friction between the NE and the NG characters about how they should handle it but our Lathanderite PC has so far gone with the flow. Basically, I was expecting our cleric to kick-up up an almighty fuss over all this but he hasn't.
I'm a bit stumped.  |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2008 : 21:52:31
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
Well, the situation at the moment is a guild war. The PCs are working for an Iraeborian merchant Noble, (they know he's a vampire, and has strong ties with Westgate) in exchange for his aid in dealing with an on going feud with a Malaurgrym BBEG. The Vamp has set them the task of weakening the church of Lathander in Iraebor, as word of his guild's nature and activities is slowly getting out and backstory-wise, he's not got pleasant memories of his previous encounters with Lathanderites.
I've got several pokers in the fire as far tasks go. Mainly stealing from the Temple, eliminating certain important clerics, disrupting morning prayers, networking with other churches, including some Velsharoon cultists allied with the Vamp.
Initially the set-up was meant to cause some friction between the NE and the NG characters about how they should handle it but our Lathanderite PC has so far gone with the flow. Basically, I was expecting our cleric to kick-up up an almighty fuss over all this but he hasn't.
I'm a bit stumped.
Ok, after read the phrases that I put in bold, I, as DM, will do the following:
This kind of actions goes direct against the creed, the etho, and the integrity of the characterīs church. If he agreed with this actions, the only thing that could happen is the cleric lost all his clerical powers (and, if the part of "eliminate important clerics" is done, to me the lost canīt be attoned).
Murderer is a serious crime. To a priest kill a fellow cleric(or help to kill, or know that someone will kill and do nothing) is something that canot be excused.
Let the player choose another deity to follow, but this will bring problems, too:
1 - the Lathanderites will hunt him as an faith traitor (bounty hunters, temple seekers, and so on).
2 - if his treacherous behavior became public, it will be very dificult to him enter in another faith.  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2008 : 23:21:23
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| I agree, if this cleric truly is going along with such actions, then at the very least he should lose the favor of Lathander. And that doesn't even begin to address the other plausible consequences of his actions (such as punishment for murder, as the above poster pointed out). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Pasta Fzoul
Seeker
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2008 : 04:56:08
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| I agree with the above posts, and I'll add that, concerning the question of whether you should allow the player to follow this course of action depends upon how he has played this character up to this point. Has he portrayed this cleric as being weak in faith, or generally more pragmatic than dogmatic? If so, I think he should be allowed to perpetrate these violations, and face the consequences. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2008 : 09:48:40
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If the Player of the cleric is a newbie to the game you might want to talk with him explaining a few things before it gets any worse and offer him a few ways out off the unfolding dilemma...However, if playing with an experienced roleplayer:
First of all, IMHO, I as a DM would NOT STEP IN in any case. Let the player handle the situations as they arise and than let him feel the consequenses of his actions. After all, it is not entirely clear that he will actually follow through with the actions in the end. And until that point he should be treated as NOT GUILTY. The cleric might deside to step in at the very last point to convince his fellows to plot against the vampire and to destroy him instead. So see how things develope before taking severe actions against the cleric.
Secondly, his actions have to be treated defferenctly. You should look at his role in the plot unfolding - Stealing or killing are actually two entirely different things. Than again stealing assets is less wrong than stealing the churches artefact! What role does the cleric play in the actions againts his church - is he taking part actively or simply a bystander? Does he openly encourage his friends to take actions or his he rather trying to convince them of the 'wrong' in all this? How long does he really stick to his friends? In other words: differnciate when thinking about punishment and how to punish him!
However, if he actually does kill, steal and rob from his church he should be banned from the church (once they know that he was involved, that is!!!) and later stripped of his powers as a cleric of lathander entirely (once Lathander takes notice of the heretic actions against him!!!). However, if Lathander would never allow him return under any circumstances I am not sure. After all, Lathander is the God of Renewal....... 
On a sidenote: If the cleric was banned from the church of Lathander you could try to work in the 'Heresy of the Sun plot' from Power of Faerun and offer the cleric a new chance. Just an idea...
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
2 - if his treacherous behavior became public, it will be very dificult to him enter in another faith.
Some churches wouldn't mind treacherous behavior all that much, but rather encourage those actions like Shar, Cyric or Mask. However, from Lathander to any of those gods is a far stretch indeed.
I'd be interested on how things develope in the end. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 27 Feb 2008 10:05:53 |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2008 : 12:52:04
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Um, just by knowingly collaborating with undead, he is in serious faith violation from Lathander's creed.
The gods don't cast off their servants lightly, however. I think the character should be given signs that the god is not pleased with him - troubling dreams, disturbing and cautionary visions or omens.
Then if he persists, yes, he loses his spells until he can convince another deity of his sincerity, or undertake a suitable atonement.
Don't let a cleric take his powers for granted. They are there because he serves a god. No service, no powers. |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2008 : 18:21:51
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And PHB II sets up a neat precendent with Knight Abilities that can be easily transferred to Paladins and Clerics.
Instead of "You lose your spells" in a blanket defined way, do smaller punishments leading up to it. When he steals, he loses 1 or his highest level spells slots. Minor offenses can be lesser spells or even turn attempts. Or you could even tweak down his caster level. He'll notice when his healing spells start doing 1d8-3 that he's on a dangerous path. |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2008 : 09:30:26
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| A party that is ordered by a vamp to kill Lathanderite priests and steal artifacts/stuff from a temple sounds more like an evil party than a neutral one. the whole situation is a great opportunity for roleplay, however i cant see any turning back, they are more likely to turn to the dark side...! |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2008 : 23:48:49
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| I have to agree with Rhewtani, I would make it slowly evident to him that his god was no longer listening. Small things at first, depending on what he does and just how bad it is. The worse his actions the more he loses. Hopefully he would quickly come to realize that faith is more than just believing. It is serving. So he changes his actions or he changes his diety. |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2008 : 15:41:00
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Some good advice, Thanks.
I think I'll probably take the line that his character is going to start loosing abilties with some severe divine warnings beforehand. I'll try and gauge it to what he actually does I'll discuss it with him again today, throw him some options and see what way he wants to take it. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2008 : 19:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
Some good advice, Thanks.
I think I'll probably take the line that his character is going to start loosing abilties with some severe divine warnings beforehand. I'll try and gauge it to what he actually does I'll discuss it with him again today, throw him some options and see what way he wants to take it.
As i said before already:
I'd be interested on how things develope in the end. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Friendship versus Faith
