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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jun 2003 : 22:15:01
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The 1e bard was an ass-kicker by the time you actually got to be a bard. For those who don't know, the character had to adventure to at least 5th level fighter, then switch to thief and make it to 5th level, then the character actually became a bard. He got druid spells in addition to all his special bard abilities (Legend Lore, singing and so on). He was essentially a fighter/thief/druid, with those extra bard abilities, who could wear (more or less) fighter armor and use (more or less) fighter weapons. For some reason, in the rules, he suffered no penalties to his thief abilities wearing chainmail (the heaviest armor he could wear).
The thing that made him so powerful was how fast he went up in levels once he became a bard. By the time he was a bard, he was essentially about an 8th level character in power. But the bard XP table started at 0 and he only needed 2000 to go up to 2nd level, and so on. Ss you can imagine, an 8th level character gets opportunities to rack up massive amounts of XP very quickly. While the bards companions need many 10s of thousands of XP to go up a level, he needs single-digit thousands.
The 2e bard was a wimpy quasi-mage/thief. Bleech!
The 3e bard is one of the coolest classes in 3e. If I played a game using D&D rules I'd play a bard.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2003 : 23:56:45
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I thouroughly LOVE the 1st edition bard. The 2nd ed bard was a mage with a mandolin. Pretty dumb, but the 3rd edition bard has some of the old first ed feel to it. ANd it was in another thread before, but it is interesting that a BARD can cast ARCANE healing spells.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 09:31:21
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What bard are u talking about? in the 1st, i cannot remember any bard... am i wrong? where did u see a bard there?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 09:40:53
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I agree with you both. I was very disappointed with the Bard class in 2e. It seem to have lost a lot of the appeal it had from the 1e character class. When the Complete Bard's Handbook first appeared, it rectified the poor abilities of the 2e Bard a little, but not enough for me to actively choose this class. The kits detailed in the Handbook were actually the only time I ever placed a PC as a Bard, utilising the Loremaster kit, or the Skald kit. The basic Bard had little to attract those seeking a very different type of spellcaster.
In 3e, the Bard class has once again captured the essence of what it means to play a Bard. The access of only a limited number of specific spells also, in my opinion greatly enhances the class, as the player is able to make use of the other abilities the Bard has, rather than relying on the arcane spells of the 2e class.
Actually with the recent arrival of Unapproachable East, I have been eagerly anticipating the first opportunity that I get to play a Star Elf Bard PC. I think that would be very interesting.
Just a special note for those who may not know about it, but there is a monthly column on the WotC site which details different aspects about the 3e Bard character class. It is actually a very informative resource, and is located here, for those who may be interested.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 22:07:50
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eilinel, the first edition bard was near the back of the Player's Handbook, right before Psionics. It was officially an optional class.
mournblade, I am the only person I ever met who ever played a 1e bard up from 1st level fighter. The class had some pretty tough stat requirements, as I'm sure you recall.
Off on a tangent, I only saw one person in my entire AD&D career roll 18/00 strength legitimately, and I never saw anyone roll psionics. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2003 : 10:54:09
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| Hey, that reminds me. What good was "18/00" over just "18"? What does it actually mean? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2003 : 10:59:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Hey, that reminds me. What good was "18/00" over just "18"? What does it actually mean?
STRength 18/00 was actually the highest exceptional strength score. '00' being 100 rather than zero. Obviously only certain classes were allowed to roll for exceptional Strength. I personally thought it was a nice addition and "reward" for rolling a Strength of 18. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2003 : 11:02:07
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A PC with a strength score of 18 was entitled to a percentile roll to determine exceptional strength (as represented by the 00 in 18/00 - it meant 100%). The exceptional strength improved the PC's chance to hit an enemy, it also incresed the amount of damage he caused, and it increases the weight amount he is allowed to carry, without a penalty for any encumbrance he may suffer, and finally it increases the PC's ability to force and open locked doors.
Hope that helps,
May your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2003 : 00:19:39
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| 18/00 is something like 22 in 3e. I always wondered why they had exceptional strength but not exceptional intelligence, etc. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2003 : 02:35:04
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Ah, thank you Bran. That was actually what I was looking for, something to relate to 3e -- which is the only edition that I have some knowledge of the mechanics of which . . . Um . . . 
Okay, I need some sleep, I haven't written a sentence that confusing in a long time. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2003 : 07:51:30
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branmakmuffin, I always wondered the same thing also. I thought perhaps, it was 2e way of compensating the fighter with increased abilities for the ovewhelmingly powerful wizard class
Still, it is a curious wondering,
May your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2003 : 22:00:17
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Sage of Perth:
I have an old issue of Different Worlds (the best RPG magazine ever published in my opinion) that has rules for adding exceptional strength to old (or perhaps Basic) D&D, but, again, not exceptional intelligence, etc. Possibly the author was influenced by the fact that 1e AD&D also had exceptional strenth only. |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 08 Jun 2003 22:01:44 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 05:28:14
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Interesting. Could I ask you to perhaps, provide an issue number and publishing date. My local gaming store has piles of old issues of gaming magazines including Different Worlds. Also I have a few issues here myself, so perhaps I have the issue, but just can't remember it.
Also, just in case I can't find the magazine issue, if you could please provide a basic write-up working of these rules in a file and email it to me, I would be gladly appreciative.
Thanks,
May your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 15:52:47
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Sage:
I don't mind at all. Others have certainly done more than their share for me. They're all in the same box, so it's just a matter of finding the issue (assuming I haven't lost it).
It used a d12 (as I recall) instead of a d100, but conceptually it was the same as AD&D. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 09:32:51
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Thanks branmakmuffin. I like reading up on the older styles of D&D mechanics to study the way the game rules have evolved to their present state. Plus, sometimes these older rules have some certain aspects that you can tinker with and make usable in present 3e format.
May your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Zacas
Learned Scribe
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 18:08:47
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| Hmm... all i can recall from older versions was my brother saying that Bards were like a human multi-class of a Fighter-Mage-Thief... or so he always told me, he had one bard char that he played... i believe in 2nd Ed... and what he said seemed to fit when i would read the Finder's Stone Trilogy and read about Finder and all he did... as he seemed to have some Mage in him with that stone of his... ah well... |
I am like a superhero, with no powers or motivation.
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, please keep me here.
People like you are the reason people like me are on medication. |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 18:23:18
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Zacas:
Re-read my opening post: 1e bard, fighter/thief/druid; 2e bard, mage/thief (sorta kinda). |
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Zacas
Learned Scribe
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2003 : 00:03:21
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| well i'm just goin from what my bro told me when i was younger... he never mentioned it as a druid or just a mage/thief... he always said it was basically a jack-of-all-trades... where often it was like a fighter-mage-thief :P |
I am like a superhero, with no powers or motivation.
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, please keep me here.
People like you are the reason people like me are on medication. |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2003 : 12:37:12
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Well when u chose a race, u could have 19 in an ability in the end, but not in strength -nor in wisdom and charisma u could tell me...
and i do think it aws to give a strong -in every sens of the term - advantage to the fighters, who had only the weapon speciality for them and the high constitution bonus. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2003 : 17:03:38
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
The 1e bard was an ass-kicker by the time you actually got to be a bard. For those who don't know, the character had to adventure to at least 5th level fighter, then switch to thief and make it to 5th level, then the character actually became a bard.
Not as much an asskicker as first appears. Keep in mind the distinction in 1E between dual-classed characters and multi-class characters. To slip into 3E parlance, the abilities of dual class characters (those who start as one class, and later switch to another) did not stack. In fact, your example character -- a fifth level figher, fifth level thief, fifth level bard -- would still have the Hit Points and THACO of a fifth level fighter, while all of his adventuring companions, presumably, would have substantially more HP's, higher THACO, more spells, etc. As a dual class character, he would get hit points for his "extra classes" only after they surpassed the level of his initial character class, and would get only the "best" THACO from his classes, not a stacked BAB, as in 3E. That made the 1E bard much weaker than it appeared at first blush.
For the record, I didn't care for the 1E bard because you weren't a bard, as such, for some time. It was more like (again, to slip into 3E parlance) a prestige class that you entered late in a campaign. I for one more enjoy a bard who can be a bard right out of the gate.
Of course, I'm partial to thief-assassin types anyway.
Paul |
Edited by - PaulSKemp on 11 Jun 2003 17:06:35 |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2003 : 22:09:18
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PaukSKemp:
When I played a bard in 1e (he was F5/T5/B3 when I quit playing) he was pretty hefty. Sure, he sufferend in hit points, but he could go off by himself and take care of many "normal" threats all alone. It pissed the other players off (the GM gave me all the XP for the monsters and loot, etc. when I did this), so I didn't do it too much.
I also perfer the 3e bard. The 2e bard was extra dopey.
That's a very good point you make comparing the 1e bard to 3e prestige classes. Maybe the 1e bard was the prototype for prestige classes. |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 11 Jun 2003 22:10:52 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2003 : 08:52:43
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Actually PaulSKemp, that's very interesting. I never really thought about the fact that a 1e Bard could be compared to a prestige class now. Though given the benefit of hindsight I can now see exactly what you mean. It did indeed seem as though the benefits of being a Bard PC never really emerged until much later in the characters advancement.
And perhaps, as branmakmuffin suggests, part of the origin of PrC come from this working of the 1e Bard class.
Interesting...
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 12 Jun 2003 08:53:55 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2003 : 12:38:57
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thats a great point - does anyone know if there is a 3E PrC based on the 1ed bard?? I think that this would do justice to some of the iconic bards of the Realms; Storm, Minitiper, Cyliria Dragonbest (sp?) etc
cheers
Damian
quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
Actually PaulSKemp, that's very interesting. I never really thought about the fact that a 1e Bard could be compared to a prestige class now. Though given the benefit of hindsight I can now see exactly what you mean. It did indeed seem as though the benefits of being a Bard PC never really emerged until much later in the characters advancement.
And perhaps, as branmakmuffin suggests, part of the origin of PrC come from this working of the 1e Bard class.
Interesting...
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2003 : 17:14:59
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great :) - but I am not sure how to build PrC - I rememebr reading an article on Monte Cooks site ages ago about the rationale for PrC - can anyone remember it?
so it needs (from memory of the 1ed Bard)
legend lore
charm by music
extra languages
bard schools
bonuses with bardic indtruments
druid spells
class levels F5 & T6
so to qualify how about something like weapon focus in 3 melee weapons, uncanny dodge, skill focus perform, perform 10 ranks, gather info 6 ranks, sense motive 2 ranks, listen 2 ranks, knowledge in 3 subjects 2 ranks
the challenge for me is then building the PrC benefits - I see it as a powerful PrC, like the archmage/master harper etc - difficult to get until you are 10th level plus or so - and yes I haven't min/maxed it to see whether you could get this earlier - these are ideas off the top of my head - any thoughts from the sages as to Realms specific info the flesh this out a little bit?
Cheers
Damian
quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
I do not think that there is one, but then it would be an interesting idea to tinker with.
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2003 : 07:46:02
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| Interesting information, Sage. I've bookmarked the pages for later study. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2003 : 13:08:37
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excellent links - thank you
Damian
p.s. any thoughts on my scribblings on the start of the PrC
quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
They are well worth the study Bookwyrm. Monte Cook's works are amazing.
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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The Bard through the (D&D) ages
