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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 18:22:44
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I remember there was a discussion going on, and we talked about the Shadow Weave, and weather it would survive the destruction of the Weave.
I quoted the Magic of Faerûn source, where it is clearly stated that the Shadow weave does not need Mystra's Weave and can stand on its own.
Others told me this was changed in the new super-modules, and that it is NOW canon that the Shadow weave CAN NOT survive without Mystra's Weave.
Well, yesterday Rich Baker answered some questions, and stated that Shade survives the Spellplague UNHARMED because Shar's Weave was protecting it.
WTF? 
I called him on it (and so did several others immediately followiing my post), and now Rich is asking ME where I got my information....
It appears he only read the parts of the modules that HE worked on... 
This does not bode well for 4e, because now we have a retcon of a re-retcon - when the four guys in charge can't even be bothered with reading each other's lore, it's a sad day for the Realms...
So, whoever proved me wrong in that other thread, I need the exact reference (page number) from the modules to show Rich.
Thanks.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jan 2008 18:23:28
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 19:07:37
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Not exactly what you were looking for but this might help.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20060306a
quote:
Wizards:Is there relation between shadow magic and shadow weave from the Forgotten Realms, or the flying city of shadovar and the race of shades?
Matthew: The book does talk about this. In essence, no. In shadow magic, the shadowcaster is a conduit to the Plane of Shadow. The shadowcaster causes magic to happen by drawing bits of the Plane of Shadow through that connection. The shadow weave represents the negative space in the weave on Toril, using the flipside of traditional magic and spells. Although the shadovar lived on the Plane of Shadow, the two forms of magic are very different. Of course, having lived on the Plane of Shadow, I'm certain many shadowvar employ shadow magic and are probably the means of its introduction to the Forgotten Realms.
"The shadow weave represents the negative space in the weave on Toril, using the flipside of traditional magic and spells." appears to require both, the article is dated some though.
If I find anything better I will post it.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 19:34:05
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I really need the pg. and/or quote from the Super-modules though, to prove a point. Rich Baker appears to be under the impression that the lore in Magic of Faerûn is still valid, but it was ret-conned since then.
Since the Shadow Weave is Rich's baby (love-child from another world?), he is probably quite upset about someone changing it back to the way it used to be, after he made an effort to define it in 3.5 rules.
It appears one hand is unaware of what the other is doing, as it were.
Thanks for your help, though.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jan 2008 19:38:21 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 19:40:13
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Page 12. "The Rite of Unwinding is a Sharran ritual intended to suppress the Weave in an ever-expanding region, slowly creating a dead magical zone to suppress the Weave without actually destroying it (which would cause the Shadow Weave in the area to collapse.)
Oddly, Rich's name IS in the credits for this book. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 19:41:49
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I do not have a super module, however this dated July 25 2007 might be a retcon to his retcon.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070725
The side bar, basically repeats what I already posted. Unless there is something released after 7/25/07 Shadow Weave is still part of the Weave and dependent on the Weave existing. After all last written is canon (even if it is wrong *sighs*)
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 19:44:33
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| Here, Rich Baker himself states that the Shadow Weave was his own bad idea, and that it would be diminished because it was something that they could live without, does that help MT? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 23:39:37
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What amazes me is that it is entirely possible, at this point, that material in the 4e FRCG will contradict itself!
Don't they read what the other guy is doing?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 00:38:28
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Well, he answered it, and apologizes for the confusion.
As of right now, the sidebar in the super-modules is NULL AND VOID, and the older Shadow Weave canon in Magic of Faerûn has been re-instated.
So... expect the Shadow weave in 4e... or some aspect of it...
It seems almost as if this setting is 'morphing' into some other one... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 01:35:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, he answered it, and apologizes for the confusion.
As of right now, the sidebar in the super-modules is NULL AND VOID, and the older Shadow Weave canon in Magic of Faerûn has been re-instated.
So... expect the Shadow weave in 4e... or some aspect of it...
It seems almost as if this setting is 'morphing' into some other one...
Well I am glad that question has been cleared up. *sighs* Always nice to be the decider without explaining why except for this is the way I see/want it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36892 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 01:58:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What amazes me is that it is entirely possible, at this point, that material in the 4e FRCG will contradict itself!
Don't they read what the other guy is doing?
Actually we were told this, that people do not read what is in the same book their names are on. We have had it reported by authors a few times.
The best example I have is Eilistreaee rangers, when the same book included a list of the only deities that sponsored rangers and Eilistraee was not on that list.
We have other examples of not knowing source and I am sure others can provide them as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 02:04:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That is so totally bogus... Do they want to drive all the old fans away?
Hey it will be so kwel and revitilizing that some old fans will stay, snince we gave Ed 50,000 words. Oh we might loose a few but the FR logo sells no matter what is between the cover.
*shrugs*
I have no idea on what market reseach they did, however 4th appears to meet the research for best future income flow. I however believe they should sue their research team for lost profits, this though is my belief. Perhaps EotC will do better without us asking for clarifications and details. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 06:25:43
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This also nullifies the clear statement Ed made here in the Keep that the shadowweave depends absolutely on the weave - if the former is gone, so will the later be destroyed. 
The reference can be found here. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 15 Jan 2008 06:30:23 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 09:01:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
This also nullifies the clear statement Ed made here in the Keep that the shadowweave depends absolutely on the weave - if the former is gone, so will the later be destroyed.
The reference can be found here.
One hopes that this link has been posted on the Rich Baker thread on gleemax? Just so everyone is clear on what has been agreed previously
Damian
ps many thanks for the link |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 17:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
This also nullifies the clear statement Ed made here in the Keep that the shadowweave depends absolutely on the weave - if the former is gone, so will the later be destroyed.
The reference can be found here.
One hopes that this link has been posted on the Rich Baker thread on gleemax? Just so everyone is clear on what has been agreed previously
Damian
ps many thanks for the link
I just posted it on the futuristic Elder Brain that is Gleemax. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 02:13:07
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| Isn't the Shadow Weave the Weave's shadow in a sense? At least that's how I always thought of it. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Edited by - Mazrim_Taim on 17 Jan 2008 02:13:34 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 04:43:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
Isn't the Shadow Weave the Weave's shadow in a sense? At least that's how I always thought of it.
Shadow Weave is what WotC says it is. The simple answer. Ed clearly picture the Shadow Weave as a function of the Weave that Shar tapped into. What Ed says is canon, unless WotC overrides him in print. *shrugs*
So what you thouht was and even what it appears Ed wanted is just a misinterpertation of what Shadow Weave is.
I think they could have dome better with using Shadow Magic, then killing the Weave and Shadow Magic, but that is my thought for the moment.
Perhaps something that I read in next few months I might welcome as an improvement, still have not been told anything I welcome. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 15:51:13
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| Well, the problem with the shadow weave (as has been mentioned before) is how everyone seems to have their own opinion about what it is, and even the canon sources don't seem to agree with each other. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 20:20:05
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Personally, I'm confused about what it is. I've always gone with the description in the FRCS, ie, it takes up the darker spots of the Weave. And then with Ed's comment about how the Shadow Weave cannot exist without the Weave made it in my mind the Weave's shadow, the darker underside of it.
So is Shar the Shadow Weave just as Mystra is the Weave? It seems they destroyed one Goddess of magic and replaced her with another. 
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And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2008 : 21:02:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
So is Shar the Shadow Weave just as Mystra is the Weave? It seems they destroyed one Goddess of magic and replaced her with another.
To be fair, the designers have specifically stated that they aren't trying to do that.
I personally don't see Shar as the embodiment of the Shadow Weave the way Mystra is the Weave. But that's the problem...talk to someone else, and you'll get a different answer. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 19:38:28
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See, I just wish they left it undefined.
"People believe X, Y and Z to be true." type of statements.
This whole "define everything there is about divinity but don't define anything when it comes to the relation of powers, economic forces and a whole host of other, more practical, things" creates more problems than help.
I've gotten to the stage where I tell my players "what you read in any product is your characters best guess, nothing that WotC has produced, and TSR for that matter, is cannon, it's just what you're character thinks is cannon (assuming your character would have access to that knowledge)"
I will not be roped into plots that I find ridiculous. :) |
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Need Help Fast! RB requires Shadoweave info...
