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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5696 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 00:57:07
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One of the things that I noticed in The Thousand Orcs was that RAS can really write some inspirational dwarven speeches and dialogue, and really seem to be able to crawl inside the dwarven brainpan when he does it. While I'm not always thrilled with his dwarven naming conventions, when his dwarves are serious and set their minds to something, they are a very good read.
So, going into this I thought that it would indeed be very interesting to read this story from the perspective of Thibbledorf Pwent. Right off the bat I really liked the idea that he was upset over defying Bruenor, but at the same time, held his own views on what had to be done. It showed both how Thibbledorf is very dwarven, and yet that the battleragers are a breed apart from other dwarves.
Much as I enjoyed the perspective of Thibbledorf, the orc perspective didn't work as well for me. I have to admit, its probably shallow, but I have a hard time with G'nurk as a perspective character.
Still, G'nurk is interesting character. Noble, caring father, honorable warrior. Not portrayed as an average orc, but as an elite orc. What's interesting about this is that, while not portrayed as an average orc, he isn't really portrayed as strange or marginalized by orc culture, almost as if an orc with his particular traits may be rare, but they aren't considered strange or detrimental to orc society. Almost like an orc paragon.
This is what is a bit troublesome to me. This series of stories has, as its current theme, a sort of parable about accepting other cultures and not judging anyone on their ancestry. But in order to drive this point home, it feels like orcs are being redefined.
From what we used to know of orcs, victory at any cost is important, strength is valued, sons are valued, and females are for breeding. But now, the best and brightest among orcs can have personal codes of honor, value their daughters and even risk their position in the tribe to indulge them, and are prone to philosophical musings.
Had G'nurk been portrayed as a bit more at odds with his culture, none of this would have bothered me, but if there is any explanation, its that since he is an elite member of Obould's guard, he can indulge "higher" impulses more than common orcs can.
Not only does this kind of feel like a revision of what we know of orcs, but it also seems like it cheapens Obould a bit. Obould was exceptional because he thought that peace might be a viable course and that diplomacy might serve orcs as a whole, and that perhaps an orc nation is a laudable goal beyond its personal benefits for its leader. But now, not only does Obould hold some of these revolutionary ideas, but apparently there is an undercurrent of these thoughts among orcs that have time and inclination to think about these things.
And again, I don't want to harp on naming conventions, but G'nurk, while distracting, is kind of "orc seeming." His daughter's name just seems . . . unlikely.
The framing "thread" of Drizzt's narrative was an interesting build. I liked the early comments of the commentary, and I liked how it sort of "built up steam" as the story went along. At the end, when Drizzt ties it all together, however, it feels too much to me like Drizzt is proclaiming how much more advanced and clear thinking he is than the orcs and the dwarves, and it comes across a bit arrogant. I had the feeling that Drizzt's commentary was suppose to be moderated by his mention that his people were the "worst" at the faults he levels at dwarves and orcs, but in the end, this doesn't do much to make Drizzt seem less arrogant, but underscores it since he knows better than dwarves, orcs, and drow.
I liked seeing the aftermath of the battles from the Hunter's Blades trilogy, and I enjoyed the look at life in Mithril Hall after the battle and Thibbledorf's perspective, but I also felt like the story tried a bit too hard to make the point that "orcs are people too," by creating an orc that was way too "good" to be representative. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 21:21:45
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It was really good insight into the space between books. I'm wondering where the next Realms story will go.
Errant, would you be interested in Bob writing a trilogy about an original "serious" dwarf character? |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 21:55:37
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Possibly, but only if it avoided the current paradigm of redefining established cultural traits. In other words, if a large part of the series was about the dwarf realizing that goblins, orcs, and such aren't so bad, it wouldn't have much appeal to me.
On the other hand, this does open up an interesting counter point, in that, a story about someone that has grown used to "friendly" orcs and the like going out into the wide world and assuming that orcs are honorable warriors, etc. and then running into a band of them that has no redeeming qualities and seeing how this affects their views might be an interesting twist. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 22:39:26
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I could have done without the Drizzt memoir framing device. It was rather distracting to me and provoked a reaction of "Why can't I see Pwent's story without Drizzt butting in?"
Overall I thought that the story with Pwent and the orc was all right otherwise and gave a nice look at the battlerager when he isn't in battle. I'm really not looking forward to "good" orcs, but I like the idea of neutral orcs and goblinoids or at least ones that do not go looking for trouble. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 20:16:20
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Least favorite of the book by far.
Pwent was fighting an Elf , but for some reason R. A. Gives him an Orc name, but writes him like a moonelf noble.
I have nothing good to say about this story. Would have rather had a story by de Bie, Rosemary Jones or James Davis.
We need more new stories and less being talked down to by an arrogant ranger. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 01:28:45
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I liked seeing the aftermath of the battles from the Hunter's Blades trilogy, and I enjoyed the look at life in Mithril Hall after the battle and Thibbledorf's perspective, but I also felt like the story tried a bit too hard to make the point that "orcs are people too," by creating an orc that was way too "good" to be representative.
Yes, that was one of my problems with this story, although like yourself (and some others here, apparently) I DID enjoy the way the story was told from Pwent's perspective rather than Drizzt's (Drizzt is fine, but using other characters is refreshing). Still, overall I wasn't that impressed with this story, because--once again--it just seemed like there wasn't much to it. "War is hell" is a truism, and a solid lesson, but I've had that lesson driven home to me countless times already, and most people here know that I can do without the heavy-handed "orcs are people too" point.
It *was* a treat though to read about Pwent's feelings and sorrow, since he is usually portrayed as not the deepest of thinkers. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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avaz
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2008 : 19:09:51
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| I enjoyed this story. Nice to see an "elite" Orc fighter as well as hear Pwent's thoughts. Fighting seens are dynamic as we've come to expect from RAS |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 21:56:41
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| I enjoyed reading Pwent's perspective. It's nice to showcase some of the supporting cast. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1076 Posts |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
762 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 07:00:14
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I think I am lucky in that I have never read any of the Drizzt—is it 103 now at last count  —novels, so Pwent was new and fresh to me. Once again I hated the Drizzt monologues, and that always helps to keep me on the straight and narrow whenever I think I might pick up Homeland and start something...
On to the merits of this story. I greatly enjoyed it, and think RAS has a really good take on the dwarven mindset. G'nurk, while interesting, just suffers too much from the "let's work towards establishing Obould's Kingdom of good orcs" I seen too much of lately. I can accept that there are good individuals in every "evil" race, but RAS's work just has too many of them.
While I greatly enjoyed the start of a possible paradigm shift in Pwent, give me my RAS in Jarlaxle and Entreri format—the only RAS novels I do own. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 22:16:10
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| Honestly I didint even read the drizzt monologues I could tell from the beginning they were going to mess up my story so I stuck with me pwent. I don't believe in noble or intelligent orc's and thats a dwarven perspective for you flat out. I'm still sour about the ending of the hunters blade trilogy. Bruenor Delzoun Battlehammer parlay with orcs? |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 09:52:57
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Just finished reading the short story.
Re: Good to read about Pwent's thoughts. Usually portrayed as dumb.
I'm admittedly a Drizzt and dwarf fanboy, so I was predisposed to enjoy this sort of story, anyway.
But I recall a passage in this story that again ridicules Pwent's intelligence, right amidst all the Pwent-centric narrative. As he tries to figure out the logistics of recovering all the fallen dwarves from the battlefield, we're reminded that Pwent gets confused often--especially when he's wearing boots.
A little bit of levity in an otherwise serious story, for sure. But notice that that levity is aimed squarely at Pwent's brainpower.
So IMO this story isn't really all that special because of the fact that it focuses on Pwent.
Re: G'nurk the seemingly noble or non-evil orc warrior. Redefining orc nature/culture.
If we're being preached to, then I'm with a lot of you guys. Who needs that?
But I have to ask, just how do people know with such certainty what orc nature and culture really are? Because we've read it in a sourcebook? Or a novel? Or because our understanding of orcdom derives from the propaganda and agehold traditional views of their sworn enemies? Where did all of that info come from, how was it obtained, and how do we know it's reliable?
I got nauseated with Drizzt and Alustriel's repeated presumption that Obould had ceased his campaign of violence in the novel The Orc King, as this smacked of sickeningly-optimistic-wishful-thinking-cum-religious-faith, instead of responsible protectiveness of the populace. If we are being saccharinely herded to believe that all or most orcs are really good guys with a couple of capital "G"'s--given all that has happened before--then I'm gonna be miffed, too.
But what if the powers-that-be are planning on stopping somewhere short of such a broad-sweeping generalization?
I'm willing to believe that some orcs are alright, while the overall mess of 'em should go to the Nine Hells. Similarly, some of the submariners on the movie Das Boot came off pretty swell too, though I wouldn't exactly wanna go for a cruise with a bunch of Nazis...
OTOH, I am reminded of certain nature videos about dangerous wild animals which ironically capture the creatures in moments of what appears to be tenderness, nurturing, intimacy, etc. Who would expect such from sharp-fanged monsters, or grunting behemoths, or scaled alien lifeforms? Probably not many of us, since very few of us ever get the chance to really observe such animals up-close-and-personal in the normal routine of their daily lives. We just think about the hyped side of their lives--when they show their monstrosity for us all to be mesmerized by. When someone says "alligator", we tend to think of gators in their nasty predatory phase, rather than their more domestic activities. We want action-alligators--not gatorific housewives! ;)
But how much of the negativity that we all hold towards orcs is because we've never really cared to, or been allowed to, see these other sides of their lives? Might we have been snookered by orcophobic propaganda for all these years? Is that really all that difficult of a possibility to concede?
Re: Does featuring this goodly orc cheapen Obould?
Nah. Goodly-seeming orcs still seem relatively rare.
Maybe all this shows us is that Obould seeks out the rare gems in his community for recognition and promotion? That might show that Obould is using is personnel-assignment functions as a leader to wisely push his agenda. That doesn't cheapen his goodness, so much as it exemplifies his leadership and managerial skills. 
Re: Drizzt Diary passages make him sound arrogant. Being talked down to.
I didn't perceive that, this time. Drizzt was simply saying that people ought to take the time to think about the dead, rather than just being wrapped up in the glory and bruhaha of making them dead. It's easy to think about orcs overlooking such an observation, but here, we had a dwarf on the verge of doing so, too.
But thankfully, Drizzt seems to have found a way to telepathically infuse the lines of his diary into the minds, thereby inspiring them to take a moment and consider the fallen, before their carcasses had been completely picked clean, and they had been reduced to mere bones and stones.
Re: Drizzt butting in.
Bah! It was just a (perhaps heavy-handed--perhaps not) way to associate some abstract philosophizing with the action. I'd rather RAS use the familiar voice to do this, than concoct somebody completely new and off the street to bust open a journal for us. 
Re: Trying too hard to make the point that orcs are people too.
I still don't perceive this, here. G'nurk dug his daughter, and missed her in death. That doesn't tell us anything about the rest of the orcan horde outside Mithral Hall. Maybe some of you guys are trying too hard to perceive that such a point is being made, here?
It seems to me that the point here is people ought to remember the sad, dark side of war, rather than just the fun and glorious side. That's not really race-specific at all.
Re: War is hell is overdone truism.
True, but Drizzt goes beyond that in his diaries, here. He asks if there is some higher point to war, beyond the glory-seeking and the boredom-fighting. He asks, but he doesn't get around to answering it. All that really happens in the action of the story is that the two actors take a moment to look beyond their own glory-seeking and boredom-fighting themselves, and to respect their dead, and to respect one another--if for only a moment. Rather than that negative truism--war is bad--I get a positive message--respect for fellow warriors in war is good.
I'd like more exploration of the concept of a just war, though, personally. And that dwarven concept of a good cause to die for. Are there things more valuable than simple continued survival? Are there principles that necessitate the hell of war? Is there a point to this moralizing elf continuing to carry around those razor-sharp blades? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 23:34:50
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Re: Does featuring this goodly orc cheapen Obould?
Nah. Goodly-seeming orcs still seem relatively rare.
Maybe all this shows us is that Obould seeks out the rare gems in his community for recognition and promotion? That might show that Obould is using is personnel-assignment functions as a leader to wisely push his agenda. That doesn't cheapen his goodness, so much as it exemplifies his leadership and managerial skills.
I must point out that Obould is not good. At the very least, we know he's a "wifebeater".
quote:
Maybe some of you guys are trying too hard to perceive that such a point is being made, here?
No, see below.
quote:
It seems to me that the point here is people ought to remember the sad, dark side of war, rather than just the fun and glorious side. That's not really race-specific at all.
No, the concept is not race-specific. But I find it hard to believe that Salvatore wasn't trying to make another, different point by having Pwent come into conflict with an orc, and one of the more tender-hearted orcs at that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Oct 2008 23:39:16 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 09:58:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
No, the concept is not race-specific. But I find it hard to believe that Salvatore wasn't trying to make another, different point by having Pwent come into conflict with an orc, and one of the more tender-hearted orcs at that.
Perhaps. But don't forget that G'nurk also ran into a dwarf, here.
The common antagonist to both characters seems to be, IMO, glory-seeking adventurism which is inconsiderate of the deceased. Giddily grinning as bodies pile up, again, is not race-specific.
Disregard not the dead. Forget not the fallen.
And the breakthrough here is not just that an orc saw the light. So did the dwarf. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 13:54:39
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I still stand by my comments, to me Orcs will always be vermin.
A pet rat is ok for a kid, but when you grow up and see a rat what do you do? Kill it. I have no problem with Dwarves grinning "goofily" as orcs bones are stacked deeper and higher. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 15:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Perhaps. But don't forget that G'nurk also ran into a dwarf, here.
The common antagonist to both characters seems to be, IMO, glory-seeking adventurism which is inconsiderate of the deceased. Giddily grinning as bodies pile up, again, is not race-specific.
I still have to disagree here, and stand by what I said before. For my part, I've never seen orcs as "glory-seeking adventurers". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 17:39:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I still have to disagree here, and stand by what I said before.
Indeed, you could very well turn out to be quite right. RAS already gave us "a goodly goblin", in the story "Dark Mirror". Who's to say that he hasn't just unfurled a scroll on "an optimal orc", as well? Obviously, there is a reason RAS didn't just stop with the passages which I shall quote below. He chose to fill us in on the Norman-Rockwell-ish domestic side of this orc for some reason. Clearly, at least this one particular orc and his daughter are conspicuously "tender", as you said.
I'm just not sure, yet, that that was the priority. It is my continued hope that they're not gonna bash us all on the head with the "All Orcs Are Good Guys" concept. (Visions of a Chucky doll with an orc head roll by in my head...)
At any rate, with this story being included within an anthology entitled Realms of War (italics mine), I cannot help but think that the intended focus was an aspect of war, rather than an aspect of one of the particular races involved therein. Since the representatives of both races present in this story featured comparable attitudes and actions, beginning to end, therefore it seems to me that the primary thrust here is not about race, at all. IMO, the recycled Drizzt Diary entry on a sad side of war (the systematic approach or attitude that allows departed warriors to fade into oblivion), something that RAS cared enough about to share with us for a second time--heck, the very reason for the title of this entire short story--must've been the main point of it all. Pwent and G'nurk were just eye candy, meant to flesh out the Drizzt monologue voice-over.
And I shall stand by that.
quote:
For my part, I've never seen orcs as "glory-seeking adventurers".
I may have misread all the old lore about orcs and their vendetta against the goodly races, but it always sounded to me like they have lusted for glory as they have struck back at their racial enemies, over the millenia. And I may have misread when I thought I saw King Obould promising the orcs all kinds of glory and excitement in order to get them out of their holes and into his ranks as he stomped across the Silver Marches.
But I didn't misread this:
quote:
How glorious had been the charge! The minions of Obould, proud orc warriors, had swept up the rocky slope against the fortified dwarven positions.
G'nurk had been there, in the front lines, one of only a few who had survived that charge. But despite their losses in the forward ranks, G'nurk and his companions had cleared the path, had taken the orc army to the dwarven camp.
Absolute victory hovered before them, within easy reach, so it had seemed. (italics added; "BAS")
There is also this,
quote:
G'nurk could hardly believe his ears, or his eyes, and as the sight registered fully--a lone dwarf rushing down the slope at him--a smile curled on his face.
Gruumsh had delivered this, he knew, as an outlet for his rage[...].
G'nurk shied from no combat. He feared no dwarf, surely, and so while the charge of the heavily armored beast [...] would have weakened the knees of most, for G'nurk it came as a beautiful and welcome sight.
Still grinning, the orc pulled the heavy spear off his back[...]. ("BAS")
I will point out that Pwent's mindset throughout this whole ordeal wasn't much different.
RAS seems to be showing us that the orcs aren't (or at least this orc isn't) that distinguishable from the dwarves in terms of their desire for glory, and more importantly here, I think, in terms of their initial disregard for the accumulation of dead bodies. Both sides were racking up some serious body counts, and both sides were shrugging those bodies off. The bodies were mostly anonymous, and I think that RAS definitely did that for a reason. We're not just dealing with one race of war, or just one race presenting callous disregard for the death of companions. We're dealing with an entire "realm of war", with that characteristic intially manifested by both sides.
And Drizzt rightfully thinks that that sucks. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2008 : 01:20:51
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
But how much of the negativity that we all hold towards orcs is because we've never really cared to, or been allowed to, see these other sides of their lives? Might we have been snookered by orcophobic propaganda for all these years? Is that really all that difficult of a possibility to concede?
Ha, someone should have been playing in my D&D games We usually had orcs that were neutral until riled up by something else ;) Then the phrase "Battle for Gruumsh!!!!" would get bruited about.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Re: Drizzt Diary passages make him sound arrogant. Being talked down to.
I didn't perceive that, this time. Drizzt was simply saying that people ought to take the time to think about the dead, rather than just being wrapped up in the glory and bruhaha of making them dead. It's easy to think about orcs overlooking such an observation, but here, we had a dwarf on the verge of doing so, too.
But thankfully, Drizzt seems to have found a way to telepathically infuse the lines of his diary into the minds, thereby inspiring them to take a moment and consider the fallen, before their carcasses had been completely picked clean, and they had been reduced to mere bones and stones.
Considering one of the things that I look forward to in RAS's short stories is the utter absence of Drizzt's blog Journal entries, I admittedly became somewhat ill tempered when this popped up in front of me.
That being said, I didn't read anything in those journal entries that actually added anything to Pwent's journey at all. It almost seemed as if the author was worried that Pwent could not carry the tale on his own without Drizzt there to tell us poor deluded readers exactly what the imagery of Pwent looking for his fallen friend meant. It fit in like inter-titles in a sound film, except longer and more drawn out. Which was really irritating, because I thought Pwent could have carried the tale on his own, along with his orc counterpart G'nurk.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Re: Drizzt butting in.
Bah! It was just a (perhaps heavy-handed--perhaps not) way to associate some abstract philosophizing with the action. I'd rather RAS use the familiar voice to do this, than concoct somebody completely new and off the street to bust open a journal for us.
Why do I get the feeling that I've just been told that I'm too dumb to interpret literature on my own? I kid, I kid. But back to what I was saying before, the journal entry seems tacked on for reasons other than value to the narrative. It seems an odd framing device with no touchstones for how this would fit into this one little story. If Pwent and Drizzt talked after the battlerager got back or there were a scene with Drizzt watching Pwent pick his way across the field of the fallen, perhaps the journal entry would feel less tacked on. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2008 : 08:44:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
Considering one of the things that I look forward to in RAS's short stories is the utter absence of Drizzt's blog Journal entries, I admittedly became somewhat ill tempered when this popped up in front of me.
Well, we're all certainly free to be annoyed by whatever parts of stories we wish to be annoyed by.
I guess I read the stories to see what the author has to tell, rather than reading them with an expectation that the author should tell me something that I want to hear, or in a manner in which I want to hear it.
I've never been irritated by the presence of the diary entries. Sure, some of the individual entry themes have irked, but not the mere presence of the diary entries, in general. For example, in one of the diary passages here, Drizzt starts going on about how we all bear guilt for forgetting about the dead over time and as we move forward with our daily lives. That just sounded like emo Drizzt looking for a reason to feel guilty again. That entry annoyed me. But the others didn't.
quote:
That being said, I didn't read anything in those journal entries that actually added anything to Pwent's journey at all.
OK.
But I did. Drizzt seemed to be remarking about the sadness of all those nameless bodies out there, in contrast to the way Pwent and G'nurk regarded them, as marks of their respective forces' glorious bravery and martial effectiveness. That's a side of war that Pwent has seldom been shown as bothering with. He's usually about the hype and the smashing. But he belatedly came to realize that those fallen dwarves still matter, just as Drizzt had implied.
quote:
It almost seemed as if the author was worried that Pwent could not carry the tale on his own without Drizzt there to tell us poor deluded readers exactly what the imagery of Pwent looking for his fallen friend meant. It fit in like inter-titles in a sound film, except longer and more drawn out. Which was really irritating, because I thought Pwent could have carried the tale on his own, along with his orc counterpart G'nurk.
It's possible he could've just used dynamic Pwent scenes, without the expositional narrative asides, sure.
But again, I try not to project my wishes onto the stories, so much as I let the author tell me what he wants to say, in the way he wants to say it. The way I took it was that RAS was really proud of that particular diary entry, so he reused it and expanded upon it, here. In past military training, some instructors would make a point to stomp their feet when covering certain points, as a way of hammering home to the troops that those points would likely come up again on a test down the road. Maybe that's what was going on, here. Maybe RAS wanted us to get more out of this story than just that Pwent is a machine on the battlefield.
quote:
Why do I get the feeling that I've just been told that I'm too dumb to interpret literature on my own? I kid, I kid.
 I dunno. After you shared your view, I responded with mine. That's all. I wasn't saying that you couldn't interpret it. I was just joining in with my interpretation, too.
quote:
But back to what I was saying before, the journal entry seems tacked on for reasons other than value to the narrative. It seems an odd framing device with no touchstones for how this would fit into this one little story. If Pwent and Drizzt talked after the battlerager got back or there were a scene with Drizzt watching Pwent pick his way across the field of the fallen, perhaps the journal entry would feel less tacked on.
Agreed that there is a bit of a disconnect between Drizzt communicating with us via the diary entry versus the scene with Pwent and G'nurk converging on the battlefield. While I can see the related themes myself as a reader, how does RAS expect the lessons that Drizzt is sharing to have any positive effect on the other characters in the story?
But this goes back to the point of the Drizzt Diaries in the first place. They are Drizzt's way of telling us how he was feeling at various moments of his life. They're not really meant to tell the other characters that. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 02:34:07
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I may have misread all the old lore about orcs and their vendetta against the goodly races, but it always sounded to me like they have lusted for glory as they have struck back at their racial enemies, over the millenia.
I meant that they weren't really adventurers, at least not as I see it.
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about all this. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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mnb128
Learned Scribe
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 20:14:10
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I haven't read all the comments above, but I'm pretty sure I don't want to get involved in the philosophical debate about the nature of orcs (although I like them better as dwarven chopping blocks).
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
But back to what I was saying before, the journal entry seems tacked on for reasons other than value to the narrative. It seems an odd framing device with no touchstones for how this would fit into this one little story. If Pwent and Drizzt talked after the battlerager got back or there were a scene with Drizzt watching Pwent pick his way across the field of the fallen, perhaps the journal entry would feel less tacked on.
Agreed that there is a bit of a disconnect between Drizzt communicating with us via the diary entry versus the scene with Pwent and G'nurk converging on the battlefield. While I can see the related themes myself as a reader, how does RAS expect the lessons that Drizzt is sharing to have any positive effect on the other characters in the story?
But this goes back to the point of the Drizzt Diaries in the first place. They are Drizzt's way of telling us how he was feeling at various moments of his life. They're not really meant to tell the other characters that.
The journal entry isn't meant to "fit into" Pwent's story. Pwent's story is meant fit into the journal entry. Drizzt's journal entry is a general lament about the desolation and loss left behind by war for everyone involved, even the "bad guys" (G'nurk), and often times the differences between the "good guys" and "bad guys" aren't as dramatic as we would paint them to be. Pwent's story, or more accurately, the losses experienced by Pwent and G'nurk personify the journal entry in a more intimate way.
To Beast's comment about the journal entries being for us (and Drizzt himself) and not for the other characters, I agree. For instance, Drizzt's journal entries appeared in Road of the Patriarch. They certainly weren't meant for Jarlaxle and Entreri to read and learn from. However, the thoughts expressed in those entries were somehow personified by the events and actions of the dinamic duo. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 08:40:51
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Received this blurb about RAS's handling of orcs in his recent works, as well as his intended meaning for the short story "BAS", in a recent e-mail by RAS (posted with permission):
quote:
Originally posted by R.A. Salvatore
You can relay this part of the letter as you see fit:
I make NO DECISIONS on 4e, Realms or otherwise. I'm not asked for my opinion, other than one exchange years ago, and don't give it. There are people at WotC whose jobs depend on this, obviously, and I'm just a freelance author invited to play in THEIR sandbox, however they shape the sand.
When I outline a book, my editor tells me what big 4e events are surrounding the area I'm using and how those events must come out (on a macro level and not regarding, say, the particulars of my characters), and so I try to weave at least some of those events (Luskan in Pirate King) logically into the story I want to tell.
I did NOT define orcs in 4e, nor is Obould TYPICAL of orcs in 4e, at least, not as far as I know. It's possible that WotC will take orcs that way, a la Blizzard, but honestly, I have no idea. What I tried to show with Obould was that, per the ceremony that enhanced his 6 stats, so to speak, he saw a better way for his people to live. He is strong enough to will the orcs that way, some at least and for some small time periods, at least, but the whole point of the hundred year advance in the Orc King prologue and epilogue was to show that, even a century down the road, it's far from resolved. The ambiguity is purposeful so that I do not inpinge upon the turf of those creating the new Realms, and those people DO NOT INCLUDE ME.
By the way, Bones and Stones was not an essay about orcs or dwarves at all. It was about warriors and the inevitable paradox of glory's short ride and the inescapable forgetfulness of the world that moves past the fallen. If it had an inspiration, it would be the Christmas story of WWI, when Germans and British began singing carols to each other across a blood-soaked field in France. (bold & link added)
Not a fluff peace for orcs. Not a deliberate intro into some 4E evolution in orcdom.
Just a look at an interpersonal side of war, while everybody else is reloading... |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36904 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 14:24:56
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Received this blurb about RAS's handling of orcs in his recent works, as well as his intended meaning for the short story "BAS", in a recent e-mail by RAS (posted with permission):
quote:
Originally posted by R.A. Salvatore
You can relay this part of the letter as you see fit:
I make NO DECISIONS on 4e, Realms or otherwise. I'm not asked for my opinion, other than one exchange years ago, and don't give it. There are people at WotC whose jobs depend on this, obviously, and I'm just a freelance author invited to play in THEIR sandbox, however they shape the sand.
When I outline a book, my editor tells me what big 4e events are surrounding the area I'm using and how those events must come out (on a macro level and not regarding, say, the particulars of my characters), and so I try to weave at least some of those events (Luskan in Pirate King) logically into the story I want to tell.
I did NOT define orcs in 4e, nor is Obould TYPICAL of orcs in 4e, at least, not as far as I know. It's possible that WotC will take orcs that way, a la Blizzard, but honestly, I have no idea. What I tried to show with Obould was that, per the ceremony that enhanced his 6 stats, so to speak, he saw a better way for his people to live. He is strong enough to will the orcs that way, some at least and for some small time periods, at least, but the whole point of the hundred year advance in the Orc King prologue and epilogue was to show that, even a century down the road, it's far from resolved. The ambiguity is purposeful so that I do not inpinge upon the turf of those creating the new Realms, and those people DO NOT INCLUDE ME.
By the way, Bones and Stones was not an essay about orcs or dwarves at all. It was about warriors and the inevitable paradox of glory's short ride and the inescapable forgetfulness of the world that moves past the fallen. If it had an inspiration, it would be the Christmas story of WWI, when Germans and British began singing carols to each other across a blood-soaked field in France. (bold & link added)
Not a fluff peace for orcs. Not a deliberate intro into some 4E evolution in orcdom.
Just a look at an interpersonal side of war, while everybody else is reloading...
I've always loved that particular story (the Christmas truce). It's an interesting look at human nature. |
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Realms of War: "Bones and Stones"
