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Keldren
Acolyte
Austria
18 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 17:20:06
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Fellow Scribes,
Our DM is currently running a campaign based in Waterdeep. My character is LN Sun Elf Psion/Cleric of Auppenser (trying to resurrect him by gaining new worshippers) After construction of my new temple (my char being the high pisarch) and gaining a quite a few new converts, I want to focus on erradicating all slave trade in Waterdeep.
Quite an ambitious undertaking, I know. My character is aware of the Xanathar's guild and Shadow Thiefs of Waterdeep. I want try to get these two groups to fight each other, thereby making my job a lot easier.
The question is how? I need to start a full blown guild war to have any chance of success, but where should I start? Any thoughts?
I should perhaps add that our characters are about level 7 right now, so take that into consideration as well.
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"No sane human would try to wash ink beats with ink, or oil beads with oil. Only blood shall always be washed with blood" |
Edited by - Keldren on 20 Oct 2007 14:50:07
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 17:41:10
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First get to know your enemies. Know who are the movers and shakers within the organizations that can actually get enough of their organization to fight the other.
Find out the leader's disposition and relations with the other organization.
Find out what activities these leaders got their hands in.
Find out the relative strengths of both organizations within the city.
Then the hard part..... trying to get them to fight each other....
1. Influence one group into knowingly/unknowingly cutting into the business of the other
2. Maybe join one of the organizations, and as a member of that organization start actions against the other yourself
3. Trick an organization to think your operatives are with the other organization, having your operatives working against them.
Know that killing any underworld organization will create a vaccum. The demand for the services those organizations supplied will likely continue. Who or what is going to fill that vaccum? If you don't plan for this, then you're just jumping around in a puddle of water.
I believe it is described in the waterdeep source book that the leaders of Waterdeep know the actions that are occurring within Skullport and other underworld backstreet deals. They are just concerned with keeping the peace, and things in check.
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Keldren
Acolyte
Austria
18 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 00:15:44
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Thanks for the input Wenin!
Getting information on those two groups is key as you mentioned. That is what my character will be doing for now. City of Splendors mentions a few sages and mercenaries, so I might start there. I already thought about getting permission from Piergon and the Watch to erradicate slave trade, but a full blown guild war they will certainly try to avoid.
I think that tightening laws and keeping a watch will discourage future slave traders from establishing themselves again. And of course after those two factions are weakened enough, finishing them off in a show of force should do the rest I think.
Or maybe I am just being overly optimistic here  Any more ideas? |
"No sane human would try to wash ink beats with ink, or oil beads with oil. Only blood shall always be washed with blood" |
Edited by - Keldren on 20 Oct 2007 00:17:02 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 00:52:48
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If you have any hope of actually eliminating the Slave Trade in Waterdeep you will have to secure Skullport as either your own, or somehow have a greater authority of good take control there.
Without someone in control who is in opposition, you can stab the heart out of the slave trade again and again only to have (as Wenin said) someone else fill the void you have left behind.
You could start a third organization (outside your church) that deals in things hidden as well. Starting a secret organization that deals in "slave trade" would be easy to do...but its hidden agenda isn't actually to capture and sell...but instead to break the strength of the organizations that do by eliminating the demand.
When there is demand for something, there will be someone who will seek to fill the demand. Your organization could initially "sell" your enemies into slavery...you will be filling the need of the slave-buyers by using the former slave-sellers. Once that supply is ended, however, you will be out of options. BUT, you will know who it is that is making the demands for slaves and be able to then cut them out of Waterdeep by either turning them over to the authorities, or by doing it yourself.
No matter who takes on this last stage, you can't simply eliminate the contact person. You have to be sure of who it is that is sending them...and send THEM packing.
What you are undertaking is a huge task! I can't really begin to think of all the options you are going to need to fill in order to cover every contingency in something like this...at least not without taking a few hours to seriously consider it...all this is just off the top of my bald head where my brain sends endless chatter through my teeth.
Again, good luck to you. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 01:02:43
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While not sure you could call it a guild war.
The key components indeed are getting others pledged to your cause. They clearly do not have to take your Character's deity as patron, just your charater needs to reach ot to followers of other anti-slavery groups. Perhaps Harpers as well as temples, remember those in the Realms believe and many know that there are many deities that desrevre horor and respect. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12033 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 19:32:48
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| Another aspect to this could be to make it seem that slave trading in Waterdeep isn't safe.... I'm not saying for the slave trade cartels... I'm saying for the slave buyers. If slave buyers were to suddenly end up getting killed and prominently displayed dead, the market in Waterdeep could start to dry up and move elsewhere. The bonus here is that this puts the traders on the offensive rather than the defensive. It also means that they must seek you out rather than you having to seek them out. If you can play on this by providing false leads that point to rivals, you might be able to wipe some enemies. However, this will only work for a short while before they start suspecting someone else, so be prepared to hide. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 01:55:30
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| If slave trade is your main goal, then taking control of Skullport is key. Without it, you're simply getting your good people killed for nothing better than murder. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Keldren
Acolyte
Austria
18 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 22:36:53
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@sleyvas You are right, at a certain point I will have to take out key members of those organisations to set an example.
@dalor_darden Interesting thoughts... I haven't thought about creating another organisation. Such an undertaking, while helpful, would require a lot of ressources and may draw attention to my church (which I want to avoid at this moment)
Having taken a look at the Waterdeep sourcebook, I feel that the Shadow Thiefs are considerably more powerful than the Xanathar's guild. While they may not have as many active operatives, they have an archmage (in the form of Marune) and the Shadow Council of Athkatla behind them.
I plan on calling several rilmani and have them replace semi-important members of those guilds. They will try to find out more about the inner workings, contacts, vulnerabilities, etc. After that, a staged attack on one the Xanathar's slave caravans (making it look like an Shadow Thief assault) will hopefully have them on their throats.
Skullport is still a big problem though... I do wonder how they actually transport slaves down there. Undermountain? Or portals? These shouldn't be too hard to shut down permanently... |
"No sane human would try to wash ink beats with ink, or oil beads with oil. Only blood shall always be washed with blood" |
Edited by - Keldren on 23 Oct 2007 22:37:35 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 20:43:23
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Skullport has a means of getting ships from the coast into skullport. I don't believe it involves portals. I seem to recall some kind of hoist thing, but I maybe wrong. Either way, ships are able to sail into the cave that leads to Skullport.
Anyhow, the answer is really all of the above. =)
I'm interested in how casual you are taking this planning of yours, and how you are using the sourcebook as your barometer of how powerful the organizations are..... you being a player, I'd think you would have to work with your DM to get all of these questions really answered.
Utimately, if your DM wants you to do this, s/he'll make it easy for you to do, otherwise is should be near impossible/epic.
I'm in a similiar situation where the group I'm in, is wanting to overthrow the council of Menzoberranzan. UGH!! The others are talking like it's just going to happen, or we die.... I'm being a little more pragmatic about it, asking them to consider leaving this as a far flung goal/dream of ours..... We're 13th level.... I'm wanting to wait until we're mid 20s... if not higher in level/power.
Anything done easily, just isn't satisfying for me. =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2007 : 20:45:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
Skullport has a means of getting ships from the coast into skullport. I don't believe it involves portals. I seem to recall some kind of hoist thing, but I maybe wrong. Either way, ships are able to sail into the cave that leads to Skullport.
Ships enter/leave Skullport through a series of magical locks, similar to the locks on the Great Lakes in the USA. |
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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 10:44:13
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
Skullport has a means of getting ships from the coast into skullport. I don't believe it involves portals. I seem to recall some kind of hoist thing, but I maybe wrong. Either way, ships are able to sail into the cave that leads to Skullport.
Ships enter/leave Skullport through a series of magical locks, similar to the locks on the Great Lakes in the USA.
I think I can contribute a little to this post - I've been interested in Skullport since The Ruins of Undermountain and the great article in Dragon 172 covered it 
I think your both correct - the Seacaves contain a magical lock and a hoist - after the ships are moved over the lock by the hoist (organised by the Keepers, who are involved in slavery btw) the ships are magically shrunk and stuck in a magical air bubble and float down into Skullport.
Aside from this the enterprise is extremely ambitious - as far as I understand (and this is from the "olden days") the Skulls rule Skullport and considering that Halaster is now dead (a la Expedition to Undermountain) they would be far less inhibited in dealing with trouble makers - look at what happened to Shradin when Halaster was kidnapped by the Rune. And you've got to take into account that there are other slavers too aside from the 2 groups mentioned.
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 15:15:21
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I thought I heard something about the skulls getting their butts kicked, but again, I have only skimmed material about Skullport.
In the NEW Undermountian, I've heard from a reliable source that the elves have returned to claim a forest that grows within the depths of Undermountain. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 08:30:45
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[quote]Originally posted by Wenin
I thought I heard something about the skulls getting their butts kicked, but again, I have only skimmed material about Skullport.
Do you remember the source for that? It would have to be a pretty significant force to overcome the Skulls? |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2007 : 14:51:26
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I want to say that it was this forum, but I honestly don't remember.
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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slay_4_pay
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 09:22:46
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I've got a couple of questioins. I'm not that familiar with the shady side of Waterdeep so forgive my ignorance. What I want to know is where do the majority of these slaves come from? Are they poor people snatched off the streets, or are they from somewhere else like Sembia or Chult? Also where do the majority of them go? I'm assuming that since slavery is illegal in Waterdeep the majority of them are simply bought and sold there, then transported somewhere else. Am I correct in this assumption? I think I might be able to offer the original poster some advice ff someone can answer these questions for me. Plus now that I'm thinking about it, I'm just curious to know.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36886 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 11:15:13
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| Some of it is people snatched off the streets, but most of the slaves come from other areas. And it doesn't happened in the city itself, but in Skullport. |
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 12:49:36
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I am wondering who actually buys them, if it is officially forbidden to have, buy or sell slaves, you can't make them openly labour very hard (that's what adult male slaves are mostly used for).
Admited, it's easy to imagine an elderly lord/merchant having his secret harem of sex slaves (who doesn't like going to the borthel since not all men like sharing their toys or any other more or less rotten reason), but that would only represent a minor percentage of the trade, because I can't imagine there are so many people in Waterdeep (it's not Calimshan) who are rich and (more important) wicked enough to have such "things" that the actual magnitutde of skullport could be justified. Simpler said in the words of an economist (although it sounds disgusting), where is the demand that comes up for such an important offer? |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36886 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 13:35:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Aureus
I am wondering who actually buys them, if it is officially forbidden to have, buy or sell slaves, you can't make them openly labour very hard (that's what adult male slaves are mostly used for).
Again, it doesn't happen in Waterdeep itself -- it happens under Waterdeep, in Skullport. Skullport is Waterdeep's dark sister city. |
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 14:53:16
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so that means that the "toy slaves" in the beds of certain waterdeep residents themself are just the tip of the iceberg
So why don't the Lords of Waterdeep (who have a rather good reputation in general) take more actions against skullport itself? Is there to much mercantile interest? (after all, slave trade brings monney to a city) Do to many of the most imporant Lords daddle in slavery themselfs and try to block any actions against the said port? And how can an entire city be under another and be run by criminals (who usually don't care about streets or buildings unless they are really concerned) and still function (more or less) smoothly for so many years? Somebody must have build at least a beginning location form where the rest was build and how does it come that such a "drive-in" system was created? Had it become to difficult to smuggle the slaves in or was just it to smoothen the transport in old times when slavery was legal? (if that ever was the case) Or both? (except the legal part) |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36886 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 16:30:52
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Skullport has its own rules; the rule of the Skulls (former Netherese mages with a collective consciousness) is law.
Some Lords have their own interests in Skullport, but the Lords as a whole do not. These interests usually involve keeping an eye on things and helping keep the lawlessness from spreading.
The city is next to Undermountain, and is a former Netherese enclave.
Skullport actually helps keep Waterdeep lawful, because it attracts the lawless elements that would otherwise go up into Waterdeep. And even if the Lords wanted to wipe out Skullport, how would they do so? It's an entire city, ruled by powerful mages (the Skulls) and populated by many powerful and/or monstrous denizens. It would take an alliance of Sword Coast cities to take out Skullport, and that would only serve to send all the bad guys elsewhere.
For more info about Skullport, check out the first Ruins of Undermountain boxed set, or the Skullport sourcebook, both of which are 2E. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Jan 2008 17:00:29 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 18:51:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Aureus
I am wondering who actually buys them, if it is officially forbidden to have, buy or sell slaves, you can't make them openly labour very hard (that's what adult male slaves are mostly used for).
Again, it doesn't happen in Waterdeep itself -- it happens under Waterdeep, in Skullport. Skullport is Waterdeep's dark sister city.
Or it happens where people are really, really good at hiding it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 19:39:30
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Why try to be "really really" good at hiding slave trade within Waterdeep... when you have Skullport available?
With Skullport's close link to the surface, it acts as a gateway to the underdark. So it would be my assumption that most slaves are sold to underdark races, bought from surface slavers. Otherwise the underdark races are left with limited one on one deals with slavers they come to know that live on the surface above their homeland. A place like Skullport would offer a larger market.
What realms allow for slavery along the Sword Coast? |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 23:15:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Aureus
Somebody must have build at least a beginning location form where the rest was build and how does it come that such a "drive-in" system was created? Had it become to difficult to smuggle the slaves in or was just it to smoothen the transport in old times when slavery was legal? (if that ever was the case) Or both? (except the legal part)
The potential for selling or purchasing slaves in Waterdeep is almost impossible thanks to the vigilance of the Watch.
It should also be noted that any and all slaves who enter Waterdeep from other locales are automatically considered "citizens" under Waterdhavian law and thus are "granted" their temporary freedom while within the city's walls.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 23:34:45
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that would be if they ever get "upstairs", right?
Then again I wonder what the favorite slaves are, if most go to the underdark, wouldn't races that see in the dark be preferred as "beast of burden" since they are more usefull/easier to manage? (like orcs and goblins, I could imagine such "material" is bought "by the dozen" or so)Would a capurted surface elf then not be something like a rare "délicatesse"(by lack of another word)? And what would be the value of a male human with an average body and brain and the value of a female human with an average body and brain? (which is not necessarily the same) |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 00:17:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
Why try to be "really really" good at hiding slave trade within Waterdeep... when you have Skullport available?
I meant slavery in general, not necessarily "the slave trade".
My point is that just because slavery is illegal in a particular locale doesn't mean you could never *ever* find any instances of slavery there (and let's face it, it makes for interesting stories). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Jan 2008 00:19:56 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 00:44:28
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| Oh very true. There are instances of slavery within the United States. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2008 : 01:34:26
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| I know we haven't delved too far into the murky waters of real-world examples, but let's just try and keep this type of discussion focused on the Realms. Discussing real-world parallels can be interesting, though they will likely result in extensive bouts of "off-topicness." And I don't really want to see that happen. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Jan 2008 01:35:58 |
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How to erradicate slave trade in Waterdeep?
