hi, i am quite familiar with the Realms, but i don't know much about it back in the days of Netheril. I know it once held great mages and magics, but can someone please give me some more information about this city?
Zaknafein Do'Urden: mentor, teacher, friend....To Zak, the one who inspired my courage. -Drizzt Do'Urden
Firstly, Netheril was not a city, but a magical empire of Humanity.
Second, go here as it will begin a download of a FR campaign expansion called Arcane Age: Netheril - Empire of Magic. This will give you all the information you will need.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
You might also find that the Netheril boxed set was not a particularly brilliant FR product. Adequate would be the kindest description you could give it, but when I consider Slade's FR work I'm very seldom kind ...
When Steven Schend was head of FR design, we often talked about "Arcane Age" stuff as this was an area of interest for all of us ("us" being people who helped research/proofread FR products). The consensus was that when compared to Cormanthyr, Netheril was a poor product. To give Netheril a bit more guts and scope, we always considered the Netheril boxed set to be talking about "Upper" Netheril (i.e. the enclaves). There was also a "Lower" Netheril which was responsible for much of the Netherese magic items seen in the Realms today (blast scepters, et. al.) and did not rely on mythallar magic, but drew on the Weave as had been taught to humans by the elves of Illefarn and Eaerlann.
This concept of upper and lower Netheril finally got sneaked into the FR "official" continuum in Races of Faerun by Eric Boyd (pgs. 107-108)- it's taken us a while, but we got there.
-- George Krashos
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
I'm not sure why George is *so* hard on slade: The North isn't more than the sum of its parts, SJR2 Realmspace isn't great, but Netheril made a mess by not following existing references in detail and intent, not using Ed's unpublished notes, and not being impressive creatively, either. (And it made Ioun a wizard, whereas I suspect Ed would have honoured the origin of IOUN stones in Jack Vance's Rhialto the Marvelous.)
Personally, I tend to ignore that box and I don't think it's worth taking the time to read. But the rest of the lore on Netheril is scattered all over the place...
Indeed. I think with a little work, it would have ended up as a great campaign world. I liked it so much, I actually made some models of some fanciful spelljammer ships.
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own. Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
I also believe, although at the moment I can't find the url, that there is a 3e fan-created gaming supplement to the Netheril campaign expansion. If I remember correctly, it details all the information in 3e format. I believe as well as this it may have some homebrew material related to the Netheril setting also.
I will try and find the address. I'll post it here when I have it.
Just a little off topic - A quick question for both Bookwyrm and Mournblade - What exactly didn't you like about the SpellJammer setting?. Please be brief so as not to irritate the great Alaundo.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
Why am I 'so' hard on Slade? Mainly because he was lead designer on a couple of headline FR products (Netheril and The North boxed set) and didn't do a particularly good job on either. The North is pretty much just a re-hashed FR5 and Volo's Guide to the North (really the only new stuff was on Silverymoon), and Netheril was what I would consider to be a lazy product. Lots of filler, useless stuff like lists of Netherese spells and their modern equivalent, a history that is out of kilter with the previously published Realms, an emphasis on 'overkill' (let's have the first orc horde to hit Netheril number a 100,000 orcs! Good idea, Slade! ...), and a failure to capture Netheril as envisaged by Ed Greenwood (and he has no excuse for this one: I have the Netheril hand-out he sent Slade before he started writing up the boxed set. He practically ignored the whole document!). Essentially, I thinki that Netheril has wonderful potential but was poorly done - and greatly contributed to the demise of the Arcane Age line - one of my favourites thanks to Steven Schend. 'Nuff said.
-- George Krashos
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Why am I 'so' hard on Slade? Mainly because he was lead designer on a couple of headline FR products (Netheril and The North boxed set) and didn't do a particularly good job on either. The North is pretty much just a re-hashed FR5 and Volo's Guide to the North (really the only new stuff was on Silverymoon), and Netheril was what I would consider to be a lazy product. Lots of filler, useless stuff like lists of Netherese spells and their modern equivalent, a history that is out of kilter with the previously published Realms, an emphasis on 'overkill' (let's have the first orc horde to hit Netheril number a 100,000 orcs! Good idea, Slade! ...), and a failure to capture Netheril as envisaged by Ed Greenwood (and he has no excuse for this one: I have the Netheril hand-out he sent Slade before he started writing up the boxed set. He practically ignored the whole document!). Essentially, I thinki that Netheril has wonderful potential but was poorly done - and greatly contributed to the demise of the Arcane Age line - one of my favourites thanks to Steven Schend. 'Nuff said.
-- George Krashos
George you are SOOOO correct. I felt a little ripped off when I was reading the NORTH boxed set and some or excuse me MOST of the towns matched Volos guide WORD FOR WORD on the descriptions, where volos guide did them as well. This was also during the TSR DARK time as I like to call it. That product made me quite sure that TSR did not take the readers seriously, and assumed we were all idiots. If you had Volo's guide there was no reason to buy the north.
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!! I was not sure that anyone else realised this and it was Frustrating.
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
Thanks George, though it's a little dusty in here.
Yes, The North helped to establish the misconception that further books on already described regions were bound to be repetitive and redundant, and Netheril contributed to the end of the Arcane Age line, which didn't make you happy. Remind us which ancient drow city was next on the list? I still think Delzoun was the obvious choice, as it could have shored up the history of the North, given dwarf lore for contemporary campaigns, provided one of those dungeons I want to see, and counterbalanced the infantilist elf bias.
Would you believe I'd like to see that Netheril handout? And does "Dungeon of the Hark" have a map?
The next Arcane Age project that never quite got there was "Telantiwar" - the cavern of the drow that became the Great Rift. Some of the material from that project made it into Empires of the Shining South and Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark.
Eric did tell me way back when that he had a CC2 version of the map but as I don't have that program, I didn't get it off him....
-- George Krashos
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
It's a real shame that all the information that was meant for that Arcane Age product you mentioned George was not reprinted elsewhere. I studied the specific details you mentioned were included in those other sourcebooks, but still I would have like more. The cavern of the Great Rift, is one of my favorite areas of the southern Realms.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
I wholeheartedly agree with you Sage of Perth. The Great Rift .... dawrves in general in fact. FR11 is one of my all time favourite FR products. An update of FR11 with new info on extant clans and holdings of the dwarves would be a brilliant 3E product IMHO.
-- George Krashos
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Dwarves Deep was also one of my favorite FR products too. Ed Greenwood's work on the early products of FR never ceases to amaze me.
I agree that an updated Dwarves Deep tome would be a fantastic sourcebook also. In fact if they did update the material for 3e, Ed would have to be the one to write it. A great addition to his first work.
Is there somewhere that the hand-out you reference here within, is available? I can't think of many things that I would love to see more than that artifact of lore! I imagine you treasure that greatly.
Best regards,
quote:Originally posted by George Krashos
Hey Faraer, great to have you here!
Why am I 'so' hard on Slade? Mainly because he was lead designer on a couple of headline FR products (Netheril and The North boxed set) and didn't do a particularly good job on either. The North is pretty much just a re-hashed FR5 and Volo's Guide to the North (really the only new stuff was on Silverymoon), and Netheril was what I would consider to be a lazy product. Lots of filler, useless stuff like lists of Netherese spells and their modern equivalent, a history that is out of kilter with the previously published Realms, an emphasis on 'overkill' (let's have the first orc horde to hit Netheril number a 100,000 orcs! Good idea, Slade! ...), and a failure to capture Netheril as envisaged by Ed Greenwood (and he has no excuse for this one: I have the Netheril hand-out he sent Slade before he started writing up the boxed set. He practically ignored the whole document!). Essentially, I thinki that Netheril has wonderful potential but was poorly done - and greatly contributed to the demise of the Arcane Age line - one of my favourites thanks to Steven Schend. 'Nuff said.
No, the handout isn't available generally. In a nutshell, Ed noted that the Netherese wizards all formed "enclaves" (i.e holdings) where they did what they wanted (rainbow colored waterfalls, reverse gravity effects, climate anomalies - unmelting snow in a hot desert environment, etc.). Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. Between these enclaves were the forest domains of the "Free Folk" who traded with the wizards, hunted, farmed and generally co-existed, save where they were hunted or persecuted themselves by the wizards. There were no mythallars mentioned in the (short, one page) handout.
-- George Krashos
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
I envy your possession of that! That is so absolutely great.
By the way: thank you for all of the amazing works that you have put together and submitted to this site. They are wonderful.
Best regards,
quote:Originally posted by George Krashos
No, the handout isn't available generally. In a nutshell, Ed noted that the Netherese wizards all formed "enclaves" (i.e holdings) where they did what they wanted (rainbow colored waterfalls, reverse gravity effects, climate anomalies - unmelting snow in a hot desert environment, etc.). Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. Between these enclaves were the forest domains of the "Free Folk" who traded with the wizards, hunted, farmed and generally co-existed, save where they were hunted or persecuted themselves by the wizards. There were no mythallars mentioned in the (short, one page) handout.
Why am I 'so' hard on Slade? Mainly because he was lead designer on a couple of headline FR products (Netheril and The North boxed set) and didn't do a particularly good job on either. The North is pretty much just a re-hashed FR5 and Volo's Guide to the North (really the only new stuff was on Silverymoon), and Netheril was what I would consider to be a lazy product. Lots of filler, useless stuff like lists of Netherese spells and their modern equivalent, a history that is out of kilter with the previously published Realms, an emphasis on 'overkill' (let's have the first orc horde to hit Netheril number a 100,000 orcs! Good idea, Slade! ...), and a failure to capture Netheril as envisaged by Ed Greenwood (and he has no excuse for this one: I have the Netheril hand-out he sent Slade before he started writing up the boxed set. He practically ignored the whole document!). Essentially, I thinki that Netheril has wonderful potential but was poorly done - and greatly contributed to the demise of the Arcane Age line - one of my favourites thanks to Steven Schend. 'Nuff said.
No, the handout isn't available generally. In a nutshell, Ed noted that the Netherese wizards all formed "enclaves" (i.e holdings) where they did what they wanted (rainbow colored waterfalls, reverse gravity effects, climate anomalies - unmelting snow in a hot desert environment, etc.). Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. Between these enclaves were the forest domains of the "Free Folk" who traded with the wizards, hunted, farmed and generally co-existed, save where they were hunted or persecuted themselves by the wizards. There were no mythallars mentioned in the (short, one page) handout.
-- George Krashos
You hit on the one thing there that I would have love to have seen some serious info on... Netherese Mantle Magics.... I remember looking at the "magic of incarnum" book and thinking that conceptually it was a system that might have worked towards a "mantle bearer" concept... granted a baby version in the making... but there's a nice "idea" in there. That's not to say of course that I don't love the concept of using contingent spell affects with mantles like what was done with Lost Empires of Faerun, but I think there should be some mixing of the two concepts.
I concur wholeheartedly! To see something concrete on mantle magic would have been nothing short of epic. The Silver and especially Golden era's of the Netheril Empire are called as much for a very good reason.
Best regards,
quote:Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:Originally posted by George Krashos
No, the handout isn't available generally. In a nutshell, Ed noted that the Netherese wizards all formed "enclaves" (i.e holdings) where they did what they wanted (rainbow colored waterfalls, reverse gravity effects, climate anomalies - unmelting snow in a hot desert environment, etc.). Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. Between these enclaves were the forest domains of the "Free Folk" who traded with the wizards, hunted, farmed and generally co-existed, save where they were hunted or persecuted themselves by the wizards. There were no mythallars mentioned in the (short, one page) handout.
-- George Krashos
You hit on the one thing there that I would have love to have seen some serious info on... Netherese Mantle Magics.... I remember looking at the "magic of incarnum" book and thinking that conceptually it was a system that might have worked towards a "mantle bearer" concept... granted a baby version in the making... but there's a nice "idea" in there. That's not to say of course that I don't love the concept of using contingent spell affects with mantles like what was done with Lost Empires of Faerun, but I think there should be some mixing of the two concepts.
I really appreciate you letting me know that. I will certainly check that out. I've greatly appreciated your other works. Thank you for making me aware of that!
As always, best regards.
quote:Originally posted by George Krashos
I did a write-up of my take on mantle magic using 3E Epic magic and that's in my thread here at the 'Keep.
Doesn't really work in 5E so haven't bothered updating it.
Revitalizing this for another question: any chance you might consider updating it to the older 3.5/PF 1st systems? Some of us are still never-adopters. haha
Those enclaves were not flying upside down mountain tops. He also stressed the importance of "mantle" magic to the Netherese. [..] There were no mythallars mentioned
Indeed, the Netheril book covered enclaves and added mythallars, but Elven roots were a bit of plot hole. I mean, the Netherese were taught by the elves of Eaerlann. Even if they mostly abandoned those traditions after discovering the Scrolls, they'd keep some useful things. And if the Scrolls are supposed to build on the reader's existing understanding, why would this lead to abandoning the old ways completely?
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
Modern medicine, chemistry, and astrophysics have "mostly abandoned [the old] traditions" of witch doctors, medieval alchemy, and occult astrology which came before them. Sometimes the Old Ways still contain useful nuggets of lore (herbal cures, metallurgical methods, observed celestial events, etc) which are still valuable ... but there's good reasons for discarding them in preference of the new paradigms.
Revitalizing this for another question: any chance you might consider updating it to the older 3.5/PF 1st systems? Some of us are still never-adopters. haha
Best regards,
I'm pretty sure my Mantle stuff was already 3.5E compatible. Have you tracked it down?
-- George Krashos
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Netheril
Posted - 24 May 2003 : 04:41:08
