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lycurgus33
Acolyte
13 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 22:07:51
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I've noticed this playing through BG1 and 2 and ToB, and now Neverwinter Nights, and also some of the novels, that there's this trend to bash Helm, or his clerics--always making them the victims of conspiracies or ill fortune and the like. It's pretty brutal.
Why pick on Helm?
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Edited by - Arkhaedun on 12 Oct 2007 06:31:47
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 22:52:10
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| don't forget the problems in Maztica with the Helmites. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 23:26:44
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I'd say a lot of it has to do with people not paying attention to his statistics after they read Lawful neutral in the alignment line.
To be fair, almost every major god should be reviled if having clerics that don't follow your true intent is an indication of the degree to which deities should be shunned. |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 04:06:10
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| because he's named after a hat |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 04:29:46
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| I'm not sure they do. however, even the gods need someone to blame for their troubles and Helm has seemed to fit that mold easily enough over the years. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 05:02:19
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Helm is a God of Duty and Protection, so he doesn't make much sense as a hypocritical bastion of intolerance. Helm is a SERVANT deity that really has nothing aggressive about his portfolio. Frankly, I always felt that Ur-Priests in large numbers would make an excellent addition to the setting though. Just as long as they didn't *know* they were fallen.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 22:22:07
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| I don't think they hate Helm... it's just that the designers needed (apparently because of 4E game mechanics) to "simplify" the Pantheon. I guess that Helm and Tyr had "too similar" portfolios (which is also why Gorm and Haela were killed) and one of them had to be eliminated. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Aewrik
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 23:08:46
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Since after the ToT, I always saw Helm as Ao's little pet, keeping watch on the other deities for him.
I actually liked him for that... the one god Ao didn't think had gotten too arrogant over his divinity. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 01:14:55
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'd say a lot of it has to do with people not paying attention to his statistics after they read Lawful neutral in the alignment line.
To be fair, almost every major god should be reviled if having clerics that don't follow your true intent is an indication of the degree to which deities should be shunned.
Agreed.
And I agree that Helm does seem like he's been picked on an awful lot over the years, even if you forget the recent "big reveal" in the GHotR. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Oct 2007 01:16:09 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 12:54:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Aewrik
Since after the ToT, I always saw Helm as Ao's little pet, keeping watch on the other deities for him.
I actually liked him for that... the one god Ao didn't think had gotten too arrogant over his divinity.
Hmm, maybe this is why Shar and Cyric plotted against him. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 16:28:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I don't think they hate Helm... it's just that the designers needed (apparently because of 4E game mechanics) to "simplify" the Pantheon. I guess that Helm and Tyr had "too similar" portfolios (which is also why Gorm and Haela were killed) and one of them had to be eliminated.
I'm thinking it was more they figured Torm would take Helm's slack. God of duty & defender of the weak & lord of guardians... whereas Tyr sits as more the judge and jury. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 18:45:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Aewrik
Since after the ToT, I always saw Helm as Ao's little pet, keeping watch on the other deities for him.
I actually liked him for that... the one god Ao didn't think had gotten too arrogant over his divinity.
That's one of the reasons Helm is my favorite Power. Out of ALL the deities, only he wasn't stripped of his powers by Ao. Only he hadn't transgressed.
They should have given the loyalty and duty portfolios to him, and not to Torm. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
Edited by - khorne on 11 Oct 2007 18:47:02 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 19:28:27
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That's because Helm had no ambitions.
He never strove to be anything more than a jailer and servant.
And because he never strove to be anything, he became nothing.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 20:47:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
That's because Helm had no ambitions.
He never strove to be anything more than a jailer and servant.
How do we know?
The gods are supposed to be difficult to figure out. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 20:47:05
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You must be thinking of Eberron.
The Gods of the Realms are thankfully very much easy to figure out.
And I just wanted to give a negative view of Helm to look at the glass half-full.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 18:37:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
You must be thinking of Eberron.
The Gods of the Realms are thankfully very much easy to figure out.
Not according to Ed Greenwood.
The gods are not supposed to be easy to figure out. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 19:52:59
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Maybe.
It depends on how you view it.
I prefer the active and interactive gods of the post TOT.
Ed is God on almost everything but I'll keep Kara-Tur and the TOT, thank you very much.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 19:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Maybe.
It depends on how you view it.
I go with Ed's views on this issue. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 21:21:48
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| The problem is that the gods represented in the novels act as gods in mythological stories, witch often show gods in a far more human light than the faith itself holds them to be. I have no problem with the "bowling Bhaal" story, but it is a religious myth, not fact in my book. Why should the gods be easy to figure out and why should their actions be the same? The gods are of an age and intelligence inconceivable to mortals and are heavily tied to certain elements of reality that will make tehir actions follow in directions not necessarily logical to others. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 22:51:15
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| Personally, I think that the gods directly acting in Fearun instead of working through their servants does more to make players feel like their PCs don't matter in the grand scheme of things than any number of Chosen or high level NPCs. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 00:42:45
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That's why you need to have plots where the PCs directly screw with a god. Unfortunately, it means that your PCs will usually have to end up Bhaalspawn or Chosen or something of that nature.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 01:06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
That's why you need to have plots where the PCs directly screw with a god.
No, I can't speak for everyone but *I* certainly don't need plots like that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 01:23:34
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I guess people wanted to tell stories about authoritarianism and misappropriated Helm for the purpose, and the pattern stuck. He's not the only god something like that happened to: look at the focus on 'arrogant' Lathander.
I think the Godswar gains what little dramatic power it has from being never before, never again in this age of the world, and loses it by being endlessly drawn out in dribs and drabs. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 01:27:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I guess people wanted to tell stories about authoritarianism and misappropriated Helm for the purpose, and the pattern stuck. He's not the only god something like that happened to: look at the focus on 'arrogant' Lathander.
You're probably right on that one.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 01:54:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I guess people wanted to tell stories about authoritarianism and misappropriated Helm for the purpose, and the pattern stuck. He's not the only god something like that happened to: look at the focus on 'arrogant' Lathander.
I think the Godswar gains what little dramatic power it has from being never before, never again in this age of the world, and loses it by being endlessly drawn out in dribs and drabs.
I agree on both points (as usual). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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lycurgus33
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 03:39:23
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*spoilers*
In BG1 we have a devotee of Helm given a cursed sword and thus goes crazy and wipes out his kin. In NWN1 Helm's Hold gets wiped out, and Thick as Moss gets hung, and her paladin lover goes crazy... |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 03:45:06
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quote:
Originally posted by lycurgus33
*spoilers*
In BG1 we have a devotee of Helm given a cursed sword and thus goes crazy and wipes out his kin.
But overall I think someone (or maybe a lot of people) who developed the BG series really liked Helm. His followers and temples are pretty common in those games (and they aren't portrayed more negatively than positively), and Watcher's Keep (in ToB) is all about Helm.
quote:
In NWN1 Helm's Hold gets wiped out, and Thick as Moss gets hung, and her paladin lover goes crazy...
Fenthick Moss and Aribeth were Tyrrans. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 04:04:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
That's why you need to have plots where the PCs directly screw with a god.
No, I can't speak for everyone but *I* certainly don't need plots like that.
I'm sorry for your loss.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 04:20:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
That's why you need to have plots where the PCs directly screw with a god.
No, I can't speak for everyone but *I* certainly don't need plots like that.
I'm sorry for your loss.
my loss too. I agree with Rinonalyrna. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Negative Portrayals of Helm?
