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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 00:25:51
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Right. First off, I do feel sad that I feel a thread like this is needed, but it's become obvious to me that it is. There have always been those who simply do not get the Realms, and criticise it for a variety of reasons, most of which have no basis in fact. With the announcement of 4th Edition, these people seem to have gotten very vocal on various gaming websites. It would also appear that WoTC designers have been influenced by these comments, and are changing the Realms to address some of these highly flawed criticisms. Which, sadly, there is not much we can do about. However, we can address those criticisms in a fact based way and show them to be the nonsense that they are.
What I propose is this. We gather together a list of of the usual criticisms levelled at the Realms, and answer them, using sources as often as possible. So, for instance, under the 'Elminster is a Mary-Sue' criticism, we would have Ed Greenwood invented the character when he was Eight, Ed Greenwood has repeatedly said that he's not, Elminster was always intended to be a background character etc etc. A collection of responses to some of the more common flawed criticisms levelled at the Realms may help a great deal.
Good idea? Anyone want to help? 
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Warrax
Learned Scribe
Canada
128 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 04:30:38
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| Sure, why not? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 05:08:36
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| I'll try to help, if I can. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 07:26:54
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| Well, I think scribes such as Faraer and Sage has answered many of these perfectly on earlier occasions and better than I myself could do, but why not? I don't think it will make those people complaining listen though. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 10:30:56
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Well, one thing that should also be kept in mind: those masses out there who are absolutely content with the Realms as they are usually do not post about it. Thus, a large chunk of posts are about what people do not like. Such phenomenon may very well paint a picture that is far more dire than the real state of affairs is though. And IMHO, a lot of this "there are too many gods" or "too many high level NPCs" falls exactly into this category.
BTW, it is a wee bit strange to think that there's an archmage in every second village - as opposed to the Grand Paladin or Elite Fighter in the next village - and thus those wizards need a doing (but the others not?).
I wonder too if these moaners and groaners mind the high priest in the village after next, who is the only chap within 200 miles able to resurrect the just-slain group-member. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 06 Oct 2007 10:33:34 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 16:15:27
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| Your quite right, Jorkens. Many people here, and on the FR boards over at WoTC have quite eloquently answered these criticisms, quite often in fact. The idea is to get all these answers in one place, so it's easy for people to find. Your also correct in saying that it may not convince those who do complain, but it would help to counter a lot of the negative press that the Forgotten Realms is getting at many RPG sites. Think of it as a fight back against ignorance! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 01:45:10
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| I'm starting to wonder, though, if the designers at WotC agree with many of these moaners and groaners, as they seem to be repeating the most common (if mistaken) complaints about the Realms word for word... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 03:40:13
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It isn't new, though. For instance, last time round, Rich Baker said in a piece of 3E promotion "Finally, we’ve decided to shift the spotlight of the game materials toward the player characters by highlighting villains, challenges, and adventure sites. This isn’t Elminster’s world. This is the world where your player characters are engaged in writing the story of their deeds, their defeats, and their triumphs." That equivocates rather elegantly. While it wouldn't have surprised me if some of the Wizards staff bought into some of that, I assumed better of Rich.
So, how do you answer "Elminster, and his cronies, and Drizzt, and his cronies, and all the other people . . . solve all the PC's problems" except to say "No they don't"? |
Edited by - Faraer on 09 Oct 2007 03:49:32 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 04:06:59
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And of course, if 3E supposedly solved this "problem" of Elminster being in the spotlight ( ), then why is it still a "problem" this go-round, for 4E? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Oct 2007 04:07:44 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 04:19:36
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They formalized him as an 'iconic character', redesigned his look to be more active and adventurous, put him at the front of the setting book, kept his face on the Realms homepage and insisted that he introduce it over Alaundo, published two more novels and several short stories starring him and a short-story collection with him in the middle of the cover, led the promotion of an adventure with his tower exploding...
I guess they failed. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 16:59:58
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| I'm almost certain that the WoTC designers are agreeing with the moaners and groaners out there. Which is why it's even more important to prove our position. Show them, with evidence, why they are utterly wrong. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 22:04:12
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If I may chime in on this, and sorry if this is not topic related (I than misunderstood the intent of this thread Uzzy):
The FR capaign setting (of any Ed. BTW) introduces a world for players to experience a game the dungeon master is building for them. Not the game designers as one might think... Ok, the give a certain outline but the rest is up to the DM and his players to do. Now I wonder why people complain about Elminster and his cronies or any other novel protagonists ever save a day for any player characters. After all, they should complain to the DM for being so stupid to actually allow any such thing to happen.
Therefore, I see no reason to get rid of any of the so called "over-powered do-gooders" or the Gods. Its the players and their DMs than need to get more gaming experience to be able to make a game which has the PCs as the heroes and which are brave enough to keep some options that they do't like away from their game. After all, everyone of us is free to use as much (or as little) of the game that the designers have given us.
Ican only reiterate myself: IMHO I have never seen a need for getting rid of anything. It should not be neccissary to reduce the multible options given, just for those who are not able to choose from them in a wise manner. Now the designers have done exactly that, which is a cheap way out of course, but it takes away many an option that was essential to the feel of the Realms.
Of course, you could always keep those options in your game if you so like. I do so most certainly.
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 09 Oct 2007 22:14:05 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 22:13:07
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I volunteer.
So, lets' get a list together of typical complaints.
I'll start us off.
Power Creep Questions
+ With such powerful NPCs, can my starting character make a difference?
+ How come Elminster and the other Chosen don't fix it?
+ If I actually do have a player character thwart bad guys, then why doesn't Manshoon just smite me?
+ Can my Player character be a Mover and Shaker before Level 20?
+ If Shar/Cyric/Bane knows all about my PC's plots, then why don't they stop them?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 09 Oct 2007 22:14:32 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 23:07:57
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That's pretty much why I started this thread, Ergdusch. So it's entirely on topic. :)
Couple of other complaints now.
+ Elminster is a 'Mary-Sue' type character.
+ Too hard to get into the setting. I need to read tons of novels, sourcebooks etc just to get a feel for it.
+ Too many RSE's
+ The Goddess of Magic should be neutral. Mystra meddles too much.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 23:16:59
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+ Cyric is an utterly incompetent God that can't be used in any serious game.
+ There's too many gods! How do I keep track of them all?
Should we address the "Great Skip" controversy?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 23:19:31
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| Well, the idea of this thread was to counter some of the reasons being given for the 'Great Skip'. I honestly don't think we know enough about it to discuss it yet anyway in an authoritative manner. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 23:25:30
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Yes, but we CAN argue against ridiculous assumptions...
+ They're turning FR into Eberron.
+ It will bear no resemblance to the previous FR.
+ It'll be a post-Apocalypse setting
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 23:29:30
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| Just a general warning... It hasn't happened yet, but we do need to make sure we don't bash any of the designers or writers. Criticism is far less effective when it ventures into the realm of personal attacks. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 23:34:43
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Very true Wooly. I've no intention of bashing anyone with this. I too have found that personal attacks, talking down to people and sarcasm never works in arguments. We are, after all, trying to convince people of our position.
And sure, we can do that Charles. Just remember that we need evidence for our arguments. Which is lacking at the moment, which is the major problem. |
Edited by - Uzzy on 09 Oct 2007 23:36:22 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 00:02:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Should we address the "Great Skip" controversy?
No, and we should stick to demonstrable misconceptions without getting into opinion or interpretation. Some thoughts:quote:
+ With such powerful NPCs, can my starting character make a difference?
+ How come Elminster and the other Chosen don't fix it?
+ If I actually do have a player character thwart bad guys, then why doesn't Manshoon just smite me?
+ Can my Player character be a Mover and Shaker before Level 20?
All this is based on a complex of misinformation and interrelating misapplied assumptions. To address it, you have to go into the nature of level inflation in D&D, the intended non-definitiveness of published stats, the ways in which personal might in the Realms is not a moral distinction and is often inferior to teamwork, the publishing history and thus the difference between the Realms and reasonable but wrong inferences from ways it's been presented, the actual nature and motivation of Mystra's Chosen, and, above all, summarize the way high-level intrigue works in the Realms, including politically and magically -- no mean task. We must also acknowledge that it's quite legitimate to prefer a world without the Realms' strata of high-level players, though mistaken to single out the Chosen or Manshoon in particular.quote:
+ There's too many gods! How do I keep track of them all?
I think I have previously answered this one adequately, in a paragraph or two.quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
+ Elminster is a 'Mary-Sue' type character.
Hard to disabuse because of the amorphousness of the 'Mary Sue' concept.quote:
+ Too hard to get into the setting. I need to read tons of novels, sourcebooks etc just to get a feel for it.
This one has a lot of truth in it. What can be done is to help guide newcomers through the lore maze, such as by recommending good sources to start with, explaining a little about their context. And an Ed quote giving moral support for not worrying too much about canon (one of the main real reasons for the use of Elminster!).quote:
+ Too many RSE's
Again, has truth. Some people find them easy to ignore, some don't, just as some insist worldbuilding is easier than rules-crafting and vice versa.quote:
+ The Goddess of Magic should be neutral. Mystra meddles too much.
First is an opinion. Second a factual mistake unless the person prefers absolute inaction, easily answered by listing Mystra's known interventions, etc. |
Edited by - Faraer on 10 Oct 2007 00:26:41 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 00:12:52
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yeah, this is something that should be nakedly Pro-Realms.
There's no need to be unbiased because it's about beating down misconceptions.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 10 Oct 2007 00:17:01 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 00:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
+ The Goddess of Magic should be neutral. Mystra meddles too much.
First is an opinion. Second a factual mistake unless the person prefers absolute inaction, easily answered by listing Mystra's known interventions, etc.
I would add that the question also deliberately ignores all the other gods in the setting who meddle; the focus is solely on Mystra, for no good reason. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 03:06:44
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I like Mystra. I think she was well thought out. Cyric needs a reboot. Read The Gossamer Plain for more info on possible reboot.  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 03:14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
I like Mystra. I think she was well thought out. Cyric needs a reboot. Read The Gossamer Plain for more info on possible reboot.
A potential reboot as alluded to in the GHotR or something different? |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 19:06:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
+ Elminster is a 'Mary-Sue' type character.
Would someone mind explaining the origin of the "Mary-Sue type?" I keep seeing it, and I feel dumb because I do not understand it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2007 : 19:11:49
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
+ Elminster is a 'Mary-Sue' type character.
Would someone mind explaining the origin of the "Mary-Sue type?" I keep seeing it, and I feel dumb because I do not understand it.
A Mary Sue is a character based on the author, usually found in fan fiction. The Mary Sue is usually an idealized version of the author, and is often perfect in just about every way -- intelligent, charming, stunningly attractive, etc.
A lot of people want to call Elminster Ed's Mary Sue character. I think this stems mostly from the fact that El is a crotchety old guy who still somehow gets more attention from beautiful females than the average male rock star. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 00:45:00
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| And for further elaboration on the inaccuracy of the view that Elminster is a "Mary Sue"-type character, see Ed's compiled replies here at Candlekeep. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 23 Oct 2007 00:45:48 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 16:07:21
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| I see many people complaining that Mystra meddles too much but strangely, we don't hear any complain about paladins doing the same thing. The funny thing is Mystra doesn't really meddle much or at least not much in comparison to Lolth, Cyric, Tymora and Tyr and not to mention Tempus. Only difference is that Mystra's chosen are too well known compared to every other gods. In fact I believe the most meddlesome god is probably Cyric and Tyr |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 16:17:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
I see many people complaining that Mystra meddles too much but strangely, we don't hear any complain about paladins doing the same thing. The funny thing is Mystra doesn't really meddle much or at least not much in comparison to Lolth, Cyric, Tymora and Tyr and not to mention Tempus. Only difference is that Mystra's chosen are too well known compared to every other gods. In fact I believe the most meddlesome god is probably Cyric and Tyr
I know I've said repeatedly that most--if not all--of the gods meddle, not just Mystra. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Haman
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2007 : 16:42:16
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Thats weird, as it seems to me that mystra is the most meddlesome of all. Of course, this is probably because she's been written about by Ed so much, that we see her points of view more than any other God. But really, she has more Chosen than anyone else, and said Chosen are always off doing her bidding, or following her instructions. You might say "Yeah, but thats not her, it's her Chosen", but I don't buy that...the Chosen are doing as she bids, affecting the mortal world, WITH slivers of her divine essence to boot. On top of that, you have the Magister whos jumpin' around the Realms under Her and Azuths supervision, doing her exact dictates (ensuring mortals use the weave responsibly and furthering magic proliferation, in a nutshell).
These are Mystran agents meddling about the Realms and with mortal-kind doing her wishes with her power at her direction. Sure, she's got middlemen instead of a huge Goddly hand stretchin' down and rearranging things, but whats the difference?
All the Realmsian Gods do this, I'm sure, but she's been in the spotlight too often it seems, changing the events of the world.
Just my two cents,
Good gaming! |
Some people say we gamers have no lives....I think we have too many. |
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