| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 28 May 2005 : 20:45:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
What is interesting about Zakhara, Kara-Tur and Maztica is that these are immigrant populations of humans that have interloped from other worlds.
Where does it say this? There is no lore that says these humans came from other Primes or worlds. For all we know they could have always existed on Toril, especially for Maztica's humans. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 28 May 2005 20:55:51 |
 |
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 21:20:56
|
The "Four Astrals" phenomenon in the FR cosmology is something that has oft been remarked upon over on the cosmology boards.
I have been thinking about this for some time now, and I have hypothesized 3 different models for how they might work.
MODEL #1 - THE GEOGRAPHIC BORDER MODEL
Under this model, Astral planes are tied to specfic geographic territory. Every geographic point on Toril is tied to one Astral and one Astral only. If you enter the Astral by spell, you go to the Astral for that land.
Under this model, it seems it would be hard for deities from other lands to connect with their followers, I don't know if teleport would work and plane shift might not take you to the plane you want to go to. And if you died in the wrong land your soul would end up in the cosmology tied to that land.
This also means that Ao or somebody has to decide where the geographic borders of the planes stop and start, and it doesn't account for what happens if worshippers or entire populations emigrate across those borders. I find this theory unsatisfactory for several of the above reasons.
MODEL #2 - THE 4 LAYERS THEORY
Under this model, the Astral actually has 4 layers and permeates everywhere. You can get to Kara-Tur's Spirit World from Maztica or Zakhara, and vice versa. The spell you use or the layer you name in the spell determines which layer of the Astral you enter into when you cast the spell. Gods can communicate to any of their followers throughout Realmspace without obstruction, and the souls of different faiths naturally seek the correct afterlife through astral conduits that whisk their spirits to the correct planes.
I like this theory better, it seems to account for the discrepancies better. Natives of each continent would not necessarily have reason to know the other Astrals are there, because the spells they have learned or are granted by their gods are keyed to the correct astral plane. They would have little cause to know the others existed, much less to travel there, however the other layers of the astral are accessible with the right knowledge.
MODEL #3 - THE CELL PHONE THEORY
I am quite enchanted with this model, although I haven't worked out all the details yet. This model is sort of halfway between the above two models.
Under this model, the astrals work a little bit (for lack of an appropriate fantasy metaphor) like cell phone networks. Service areas are regional but may overlap. Accessability depends on your location with respect to the nearest "antenna tower" which in this case would be temples, shrines, dedicated holy places and population centers with sizable numbers of believers.
There is some precedence with the rules in Faiths & Avatars and maybe Deities & Demigods to indicate that gods have special influence within a certain radius of their shrines and temples and holy relics.
Using this theory, access to Kara-Tur's spirit world would be strong within the geographic territory of Kara-Tur, but would be more spotty along the border. But it might still be accessible in those areas where Kara-Turan travelers frequent ports and set up shrines, or along the paths that the Horde took when they invaded the West.
Likewise, Maztica would be fairly inaccessible to the Faerūnian astral, except for those places where the clergy of Helm set up shrines in their recent explorations.
Under this theory, the geographic borders are not set by divine mandate--Ao does not have to do any surveys or draw lines on a map. Rather the geographic borders are fluid and can change with population migration or as new shrines are built or fall out of maintenance.
This theory also allows for geographic overlap so that when worshippers of different faiths cohabit the same territory, they can still access the appropriate astral for their religion.
This third model has a submodel A and a submodel B. Under submodel A, the Faerunian astral is the default astral for the entire universe, and the pocket astrals are accessible only within their respective network areas, while in submodel B, all astrals are accessible only so far as a certain radius from where their shrines, holy sites, relics and poplations of belief or other nodes extend. |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 21:23:56
|
I still can't fully get that commet of Mystra's from Crucible out of my mind, when she was speaking to the Shou prince, that basically inferred that some of the Faerunian deities might be present in different form in Kara-Tur.
If that is true, then the souls of the faithless and false of these regions could easily come to Kelemvor, though they may see the plane differently and Kelemvor may appear differently to them (perhaps in Shou armor or silver and black instead of western, though the skull mask is likely the same).
Since different gods view the Cynosure differently, and Oghma's plane changes its appearance, I don't think this would be too much of a strech. |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 21:27:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gray RichardsonMODEL #1 - THE GEOGRAPHIC BORDER MODEL
Under this model, Astral planes are tied to specfic geographic territory. Every geographic point on Toril is tied to one Astral and one Astral only. If you enter the Astral by spell, you go to the Astral for that land.
Under this model, it seems it would be hard for deities from other lands to connect with their followers, I don't know if teleport would work and plane shift might not take you to the plane you want to go to. And if you died in the wrong land your soul would end up in the cosmology tied to that land.
This also means that Ao or somebody has to decide where the geographic borders of the planes stop and start, and it doesn't account for what happens if worshippers or entire populations emigrate across those borders. I find this theory unsatisfactory for several of the above reasons.
Um? This is how it is according to the Player's Guide, except Zakhara's Astral also connects to the Elemental planes. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 21:33:51
|
Yet Gray's 'cell phone' theory sounds more reasonable due to its dynamics, and it also strengthens the interdepency of deities and their followers.
Under that theory, it is possible for an embassy of the Shou in Waterdeep to still access 'their' astral plane, as long as they have put up a shrine or temple within the embassy...
This theory can also support modes where a deity from one pantheon/'geographic astral' area could absorp a deity from another pantheon/'geographic astral'. |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 21:36:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Where does it say this? There is no lore that says these humans came from other Primes or worlds. For all we know they could have always existed on Toril, especially for Maztica's humans.
Powers & Pantheons p.2: "Much later, goblinkin entered Faerūn, as did humam peoples from other spheres, moving to settle in what we now know as Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara.
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting p.261 "humans from other worlds migrated to places such as Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara." |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 21:47:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Um? This is how it is according to the Player's Guide, except Zakhara's Astral also connects to the Elemental planes.
I am certainly taking into account what it says in the Players Guide to Faerūn. It certainly says these continents have their own special astrals. However the PGtF doesn't say these astral planes are exclusive or that they preempt access to other astrals. It leaves the mechanics of it all rather vague, and I don't think you can make any conclusions about which if any of the three theories above are correct given what was presented in the PGtF.
Model #1 seems to be the least attractive theory because it has ramifications that imply that teleport spells may not function across these arbitrary borders. Gods might have no access to their worshippers and spells could not be granted across borders. A planeshift spell or Astral projection spell might function very differently if you stepped across an invisible line.
And it doesn't really explain how the borders are determined and if they can change over time. Although I am sure such explanations could be figured out if we had to.
I like the other two models much better as they seem to meet the occam's razor test of simplicity and ease of use that makes for a much better fit with the cosmology.  |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 21:56:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gray RichardsonI am certainly taking into account what it says in the Players Guide to Faerūn. It certainly says these continents have their own special astrals. However the PGtF doesn't say these astral planes are exclusive or that they preempt access to other astrals. It leaves the mechanics of it all rather vague, and I don't think you can make any conclusions about which if any of the three theories above are correct given what was presented in the PGtF.
Then you need to read page 164 since each Astral is seperate from the others. It's right there in black and white. "Several different Astral connect to Toril. Ao oversees the seperate astral planes. Characters in the other areas can enter different Astral Planes with links to the Outer Planes inhabited by thier own deities. These Astrals are based on the geographical areas of control held by the different pantheons."
How is this not clear? This is just like your #1. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 22:06:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
[br These Astrals are based on the geographical areas of control held by the different pantheons."
How is this not clear? This is just like your #1.
Granted, semantics, but what are the geographical areas of control ?
I don't see the statement overriding the cell-phone theory... separate astrals, linked to areas whose boundaries are determined by temples, shrines and other holy places that represent the influence of deities of a specific pantheon/faith... I don't see a conflict with the text in PGtF... |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 22:13:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Then you need to read page 164 since each Astral is seperate from the others. It's right there in black and white. "Several different Astral connect to Toril. Ao oversees the seperate astral planes. Characters in the other areas can enter different Astral Planes with links to the Outer Planes inhabited by thier own deities. These Astrals are based on the geographical areas of control held by the different pantheons."
How is this not clear? This is just like your #1.
Obviously the word "separate" means something precise and specific to you Kuje, however I cannot ascribe such scientifc precision to the term as you do. This may just be a point of semantics, indeed, however I see nothing in any of the above 3 theories that conflicts with the language you have quoted above. |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 22:25:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn HuzalGranted, semantics, but what are the geographical areas of control ?
I don't see the statement overriding the cell-phone theory... separate astrals, linked to areas whose boundaries are determined by temples, shrines and other holy places that represent the influence of deities of a specific pantheon/faith... I don't see a conflict with the text in PGtF...
The graphical areas are the continents of Toril, it's clearly detailed. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 23:06:10
|
Actually the only reference of the Pantheon's areas I can think of is the picture in F&A which makes more or less a schematic attempt at drawing these 'black & white' geographical areas, and even that one is not clearly detailed...
Returning to the example of the Shou embassy in Waterdeep. One devout member of the embassy's staff died of food poisoning. Since Waterdeep is in the geographical area of the Faerunian pantheon, the poor Shou is deemed a false?
No, because despite the fact that the Shou physically is within the area of the Faerunian pantheon, the embassy's staff member would still have received his spells etc via the Celestial Bureaucracy's channels. The Shou's soul would still be claimed by the Bureacracy.
And vice-versa also applies. This is very similar to the concept of model#3 presented earlier, wherever a worshipper of a deity goes, that worshipper takes with him/her a portion of his/her deity's influence, regardless in what geographical area. Obviously mass movements of worshippers would raw a definite reaction of the established powers in that area, but other than that, the indvidual would likely be left alone to his/her own divine support. Something which seems to clash with model#1.
Actually an example of model#3 taking place is the expanding influence of the Faerunian and Mulhorandi Pantheon in Unther. The map in F&A actually illsutrates this dynamism. Only because the established religions did no longer have the power - both deific and followers - to resist the encroachment of the other two pantheons.
I can still see the separate Astrals functioning in the theoretical model#3. In fact the silver thread that connects the individual from one area would still be connected even if that individual moves halway across the globe... |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 21:50:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I guess I'm the only one who didn't like Myrkul...
I thought he was kinda boring, as the stereotypical "Ooh, death is scary!" deity. Not that Kelemvor with his "Death is a part of life." attitude is terribly original, but he's a lot more interesting to me.
Ah, Wooly, you really think Kelemvor Lyonsbane in a silver mask is more interesting than Myrkul? It may be that "the mortals feared him greatly", but there is more to Myrkul“s worship than mere "ooh, death is scary!"-type of aspect (as presented with the Crown of Horns and the Mere of the Dead Men-series). Our PCs have encountered many mysteries tied to Myrkul“s faith, gloomy and disturbing, yet not all of them necessary evil. Faiths & Avatars did a great job in presenting the Gray Ones and Myrkul“s worship in detail.
I liked Jergal, Myrkul and Cyric far better than Kelemvor. Maybe because they all had more "depth" than the current Lord Death does. In part because Cyric“s and Myrkul“s cults present a DM with many plot hook opportunities. And certainly because they all were a bit more gloomy and sinister (even Jergal) than Kelemvor.
But this is just my opinion  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 21:55:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I guess I'm the only one who didn't like Myrkul...
I thought he was kinda boring, as the stereotypical "Ooh, death is scary!" deity. Not that Kelemvor with his "Death is a part of life." attitude is terribly original, but he's a lot more interesting to me.
Ah, Wooly, you really think Kelemvor Lyonsbane in a silver mask is more interesting than Myrkul? It may be that "the mortals feared him greatly", but there is more to Myrkul“s worship than mere "ooh, death is scary!"-type of aspect (as presented with the Crown of Horns and the Mere of the Dead Men-series). Our PCs have encountered many mysteries tied to Myrkul“s faith, gloomy and disturbing, yet not all of them necessary evil. Faiths & Avatars did a great job in presenting the Gray Ones and Myrkul“s worship in detail.
I liked Jergal, Myrkul and Cyric far better than Kelemvor. Maybe because they all had more "depth" than the current Lord Death does. In part because Cyric“s and Myrkul“s cults present a DM with many plot hook opportunities. And certainly because they all were a bit more gloomy and sinister (even Jergal) than Kelemvor.
But this is just my opinion
But the thing is, I prefer death to not be gloomy and sinister. And when it comes to depth, when has Myrkul ever been presented with any depth? Kelemvor, at least, has a personality and is someone that you can understand and relate to. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 22:14:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But the thing is, I prefer death to not be gloomy and sinister. And when it comes to depth, when has Myrkul ever been presented with any depth? Kelemvor, at least, has a personality and is someone that you can understand and relate to.
Personally I prefer the deities and their motives not to be understood by mortals. I like when there are unexplained mysteries about them and their clergy. And I do prefer death to be both gloomy and sinister (both as a player and a DM) 
What I meant by saying that Kelemvor lacks depth is that his "Death is just a part of life"/"Thou shall be judged by thy deeds"-type of attitude is... boring? Certainly for a DM, at least. And I guess Kelemvor and his faith won“t play any major role in most campaigns, unless one of the PCs is his cleric or lay follower.
Maybe it“s just me, but I think that both 'Faiths & Avatars' and Eric“s 'Eye of Myrkul'-module gave us a lot of Realmslore about Myrkul and his followers (and also about the Cult of the Dragon, and the history of the North). |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 23:55:51
|
I wonder sometimes if due to the fact that the Avatar Trilogy was not really carried out as well as it should have been, that some of the characters that debuted in that series are given a little harder time, no matter how they are presented later in Realmslore?
|
|
|
|
khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 07:29:05
|
| Why are there so actually so many different Astrals? Wouldn`t it be easier with just one? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 09:45:13
|
Well, the Astral is chanelled anyway, so once you enter it you can only go to the plane you name. The Astral is kind of like an airport hub. The spell to enter the Astral is like your ticket. It only allows you to go to your predesignated destination. But while you are in the Astral, you can hang out with the other people there. And when you leave the Astral you go to the plane you named when you entered.
The "hubs" for the continent of Maztica and for Zakhara appear to be separate from the others. For instance, during your "layover" you can interact with the Maztican passengers, but cannot connect with those in the Zakharan or Faerūnian "airports." And vice versa.
Kara-Tur's "Astral" may not even be an astral plane as such, it operates like the Spirit World featured in the Manual of the Planes.
Ao seems to have allowed the gods that represent the peoples that settled in these territories to set up pocket cosmologies. Attached by their own Astrals to the territories their peoples inhabit.
Sure, one Astral plane might have worked, but Ao (and the FR designers) chose not to go that route. There are 4 Astrals, or at least 3 Astrals and a Spirit plane.
The Maztican cosmology is detailed in the Maztican box-set. It's interesting.
I forget where the Zakharan cosmology is detailed. Maybe the Al-Qadim box-set but I don't recall. There are a few sparse details about it and the Kara-Tur pocket cosmologies in the Players Guide to Faerūn. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
|
|
khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2005 : 18:47:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I forget where the Zakharan cosmology is detailed. Maybe the Al-Qadim box-set but I don't recall. There are a few sparse details about it and the Kara-Tur pocket cosmologies in the Players Guide to Faerūn.
Khorne, I've discussed the Zakharan cosmology, as it pertains to 2e, in this scroll:- http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2349
What would happen if a diety from faerun tried to move in on zakhara?
Ps, are there elves, dwarves, halflings and gnomes in zakhara?
|
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
|
|
|
Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2005 : 22:38:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I forget where the Zakharan cosmology is detailed. Maybe the Al-Qadim box-set but I don't recall. There are a few sparse details about it and the Kara-Tur pocket cosmologies in the Players Guide to Faerūn.
Khorne, I've discussed the Zakharan cosmology, as it pertains to 2e, in this scroll:- http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2349
What would happen if a diety from faerun tried to move in on zakhara?
Ps, are there elves, dwarves, halflings and gnomes in zakhara?
Well met
Hmmmm, let's not get too off topic on this. Mayhaps it would be worthwhile starting another scroll for this, khorne? |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2005 : 02:03:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I forget where the Zakharan cosmology is detailed. Maybe the Al-Qadim box-set but I don't recall. There are a few sparse details about it and the Kara-Tur pocket cosmologies in the Players Guide to Faerūn.
Khorne, I've discussed the Zakharan cosmology, as it pertains to 2e, in this scroll:- http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2349
What would happen if a diety from faerun tried to move in on zakhara?
Ps, are there elves, dwarves, halflings and gnomes in zakhara?
Well met
Hmmmm, let's not get too off topic on this. Mayhaps it would be worthwhile starting another scroll for this, khorne?
Khorne, under Alaundo's advice, I answered part of your query here in this scroll.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Songrimm
Acolyte
Germany
38 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 03:45:09
|
so after reading through the whole thread it seems to me that the problem is that kel is human.
so what would you say if the character that became the new master over the fugue plane was an elf or halfling or whatever. so then there would be a non-human hold judgment over the faf. i see no problem with that as this person is the boss here.
and the problem with giving lip service to the gods. now these people belive in the gods but not very strongly but they acknowledge their existence. this is not faithless to me so they get to their respective deity.
a false imo is someone who rejected all the gods of all the pantheons. these people have per se no god. and as was mentioned before this people are for the master of the fugue plane to judge. if one of the other gods is willing to take this soul s/he can allways ask for it or make a deal with the master.
now for the false. they betrayed their god and deserve a punishment. and here i have to agree with kuje. i dont understand why kel has to do it and not the god who was betrayed?
as for the uselessness of the other death gods. as i said before there is more to a death gods duties than just the faf. there are rites and memorial days this gods have to overlook. judging is not all they do. but again i agree with kuje that the mulhorand pantheons death god is an exception here. |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 03:50:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Songrimm
so after reading through the whole thread it seems to me that the problem is that kel is human.
so what would you say if the character that became the new master over the fugue plane was an elf or halfling or whatever. so then there would be a non-human hold judgment over the faf. i see no problem with that as this person is the boss here.
Well as I said earlier, I'd still have a problem with this if any of the other deities of the dead/death had that much power over souls that have nothing to do with them.
So each pantheon should judge thier own souls if those souls are faithless and false. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 02 Jun 2005 03:51:40 |
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 05:55:29
|
I agree with that last statement Kuje, and something I had tried to say earlier in this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
I tend to agree with Gray's POV in the discussion, and don't see why the other deities cannot play a role in the game. The whole discussion so far seems to portay Kelemvor (and his tasks) and the other death deities as not compatible...
I could see the Fugue as a large area where all the dead go, and Kelemvor happens to be its caretaker, as well as the one that maintains the wall and the city.
All the other dieties of death actually have a say in judging who goes where. It is them that decide for the followers of their respective pantheons, where they go:
"Clangeddin you say, let me check my liist... Hmmm, I always thought you'd be more of Dumathoin's man... allright, of you go, that way. And you, you forsake the Mordinsamman... sorry, line up over there, towards that wall yonder, next please."
Kelemvor, in addition to being the Fugue's main-man, also happens to be the death deity for the Faerunian pantheon, so in addition to his tasks of overseeing the wall and such, he gets his say on those souls.
He takes care of those that the other death deities have judged as not compatible with their afterlives and it is Kelemvor who eventually makes the final judgement on wether it is the wall, the city, or in exceptional circumstances sends the soul with a missive to another death deity than the souls orginial one...
This scenario, where the various gods of the dead initially judge, is not mutually exclusive with what Gray initially mentioned with his 2nd and 3rd model. |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 06:34:04
|
What if long ago, the death gods of the various pantheons met at Cynosure to hammer out a concord about the disposition of souls.
Perhaps there was a problem with gods stealing the souls of worshippers of other pantheons. Or claiming the faithless as their own in order to augment their power and divine rank.
Perhaps there was a problem with some gods punishing the souls of worshippers that had converted to the faiths of other patron deities.
Maybe they all agreed that Jergal would preside over the Fugue Plane and hold it in stewardship on behalf of all pantheons to maintain its neutrality.
Maybe they also set up rules about which god could claim which souls under what circumstances.
Lastly, perhaps they gave Jergal the office of impartially judging the Faithless and False and providing appropriate and fair punishment so that all gods might feel appeased.
This treaty would have been signed into law by agreement of all concerned parties and entrusted the position to Jergal (or his predecessor) which in turn passed down to Myrkul, then Cyric and most recently Kelemvor.
If this was a compact that all the pantheons or death gods agreed to, would you still have a problem with the current system? |
|
|
|
Songrimm
Acolyte
Germany
38 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 02:12:04
|
Finally, finally, i found my old faith and pantheons book. you know the 2nd edition one about gods.
here s what s bugging me all the time.
in the story "knucklebones", the rise of bane, bhaal and myrkul, jergal is called the master over the end of all things.
the story procedes .. la la.. mighty man this three .. la la.. find jergal ..la la..
finally they decide that everyone of the three should get one portefolio. it goes a little like this.
bane : " i choose tyranny to be master of the world"
myrkul : " i choose the dead and as everything must die i will become more powerful then you "
bhaal : " i choose death (as in the transition from live to death)
so i can decide who of you will be more powerful. i can stay my hand and starve you, myrkul; or i can kill all and take power from you, bane"
this seems to imply that in ancient times all the dead were judged by the god of the dead and there was no fugue plane. any comments? |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 02:24:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Songrimm
Finally, finally, i found my old faith and pantheons book. you know the 2nd edition one about gods.
here s what s bugging me all the time.
in the story "knucklebones", the rise of bane, bhaal and myrkul, jergal is called the master over the end of all things.
the story procedes .. la la.. mighty man this three .. la la.. find jergal ..la la..
finally they decide that everyone of the three should get one portefolio. it goes a little like this.
bane : " i choose tyranny to be master of the world"
myrkul : " i choose the dead and as everything must die i will become more powerful then you "
bhaal : " i choose death (as in the transition from live to death)
so i can decide who of you will be more powerful. i can stay my hand and starve you, myrkul; or i can kill all and take power from you, bane"
this seems to imply that in ancient times all the dead were judged by the god of the dead and there was no fugue plane. any comments?
It doesn't really imply anything... Deities draw power from the execution of their portfolios, as well as worship. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2005 : 19:11:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Songrimm
Finally, finally, i found my old faith and pantheons book. you know the 2nd edition one about gods.
here s what s bugging me all the time.
in the story "knucklebones", the rise of bane, bhaal and myrkul, jergal is called the master over the end of all things.
the story procedes .. la la.. mighty man this three .. la la.. find jergal ..la la..
finally they decide that everyone of the three should get one portefolio. it goes a little like this.
bane : " i choose tyranny to be master of the world"
myrkul : " i choose the dead and as everything must die i will become more powerful then you "
bhaal : " i choose death (as in the transition from live to death)
so i can decide who of you will be more powerful. i can stay my hand and starve you, myrkul; or i can kill all and take power from you, bane"
this seems to imply that in ancient times all the dead were judged by the god of the dead and there was no fugue plane. any comments?
It doesn't really imply anything... Deities draw power from the execution of their portfolios, as well as worship.
Besides, it“s a myth. As Ed himself has many times said, mortals can never be certain about "godly matters". There are many myths such as this one, with countless variants... no one knows which ones are true, or even partially true. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Antareana
Seeker
Germany
59 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2005 : 22:26:52
|
well... and are dragons (with which the whole topic started) not natives to Toril? Then why do they worship dragon deities?(if they worship at all ;) )
It would be interresting to know what kind of creation myth the old draconic ones tell their youth. Or maybe what the sarrukh told...
and... hm... what would happen, if someone from a different prime material died in Faerun? I hope the astral connections work well in those cases ;)
In our Planescape/Faerunish Campaign it is pretty easy... all souls of the dead from Faerun go to the Fugue where not only Kel(oops, we still have Cyric ^^), but all gods of death reside (at least with an avatar) to judge the dead of their Pantheon-worshippers.
As for the wall.. that is really tough(since faithless do not worship anybody), but my players want to get rid of the wall anyway |
It is all just a past and future secret
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Dragon Souls and the Fugue Plane
