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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 24 May 2005 : 21:02:24
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Some of the discussion on the Cormyr Campaign forums made me wonder. I know that according to the Avatar Trilogy of books that halfling souls go to the fugue plane was well. This would lead me to assume that all souls go there, at least long enough for the proper god to "collect" them.
What I was thinking was . . . I have a hard time picturing a dragon soul just laguishing on the Fugue Plane . . . or a beholder . . . and what about Phaerimm? Maybe there is a "back door" to the Fugue Plane, and not all of the souls of the dead approach the Crystal Spire from the same route?
Just wondering . . . and the irony is that the initial soul that made me wonder would actually have been elvish, not draconic, lol.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 21:21:10
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If we are using FR's new planes, then every being with a soul/spirit goes to the Fugue. No if and or buts about it.
Also remember that Kel gets to judge the Faithless and False even if those souls never worshipped him in life. :) Yes, I'm still bitter about this and it screws the other deities of death/dead. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 21:29:16
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I always kind of wondered though . . . if they are all drawn to the Fugue Plane, but then the god of the dead of the native pantheon collects them and then distributes/judges them.
For example, Osiris gathers up all the Mulhorandi dead before Kel has to make any judgements, Urogalan picks up the dead halflings, etc.
I know, Kel is suppose to get ALL of the faithless and false, but how huge would that fricking wall be when you throw some dragons into it? |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 21:40:49
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I always kind of wondered though . . . if they are all drawn to the Fugue Plane, but then the god of the dead of the native pantheon collects them and then distributes/judges them.
For example, Osiris gathers up all the Mulhorandi dead before Kel has to make any judgements, Urogalan picks up the dead halflings, etc.
I know, Kel is suppose to get ALL of the faithless and false, but how huge would that fricking wall be when you throw some dragons into it?
I don“t have any of my sourcebooks at hand right now, but I would assume that Kel has only power of judgement over humans... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 21:46:15
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| Technically I think Kel gets anyone that isn't claimed by their native deities . . . which is why you can't raise or ressurect them if they don't have a god, since if you wait too long he has already put them in the wall or pronounced final judgement on them. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 22:06:05
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Technically I think Kel gets anyone that isn't claimed by their native deities . . . which is why you can't raise or ressurect them if they don't have a god, since if you wait too long he has already put them in the wall or pronounced final judgement on them.
Hmm... I would still argue with this. Why would a human god hold power over elven souls, for instance? It may be stated so in canon lore, but I just have to disagree.
I can still understand if Myrkul did a bit "soul stealing/poaching", but not that Kel would have rightful authority over the souls of non-humans or worshippers of other pantheons (such as Mulhorandi). |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 22:19:04
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quote:
Originally posted by AsgetrionHmm... I would still argue with this. Why would a human god hold power over elven souls, for instance? It may be stated so in canon lore, but I just have to disagree.
I can still understand if Myrkul did a bit "soul stealing/poaching", but not that Kel would have rightful authority over the souls of non-humans or worshippers of other pantheons (such as Mulhorandi).
Kel has judgement over all faithless and false. Hence my bitter comment above. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 22:41:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
[quote] Kel has judgement over all faithless and false. Hence my bitter comment above. :)
Yes, maybe officially...  I think I will ignore that. What makes human deities so superior that this can be properly justified? I don“t think either Prince of Lies or Crucible describes any non-human souls judged by either Cyric or Kelemvor...
Kuje, forgive me my loack of knowledge on this subject, but what accessory actually says so? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 22:44:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Kuje, forgive me my loack of knowledge on this subject, but what accessory actually says so?
All 3/3.5e FR lore on the subject. :) SKR has said so also within the last week on his boards. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 23:01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Kuje, forgive me my loack of knowledge on this subject, but what accessory actually says so?
All 3/3.5e FR lore on the subject. :) SKR has said so also within the last week on his boards.
(I really need to get my eyesight checked ;)  I must have suffered from temporary blindness every time I have come across any sentence saying so... incredible how I have completely missed it - or perhaps I subconsciously just refused to see it?
Embarassing, to say the least  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 00:41:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Hmm... I would still argue with this. Why would a human god hold power over elven souls, for instance? It may be stated so in canon lore, but I just have to disagree.
I can still understand if Myrkul did a bit "soul stealing/poaching", but not that Kel would have rightful authority over the souls of non-humans or worshippers of other pantheons (such as Mulhorandi).
It makes sense if you consider that Kelemvor is not the human god of death. Kelemvor is THE god of Death for Realmspace (the universe of Abeir-Toril).
He currently happens to be an ascended human. But the god does not have to be racially human to hold the office. Jergal for instance held the office for many millenia, and he was not human.
The office of God of Death goes back to shortly after the creation of the universe and predates humanity. The office is appointed by Ao, or at least Ao has to approve the choice. Although humans may worship him, he is not as such a human god.
The rules governing Death appear to have been set up at the begining of time. Most of the non-human pantheons are interlopers and came from other universes. The laws governing Death were already well established before they arrived and set up shop in Realmspace. Those gods have to live with the rules as Ao has mandated. If they want different rules they can go off and create their own universe.
Even so, Kelemvor has no jurisdiction at all over believers of other faiths. Believers go to the Fugue Plane when they die and their gods pick them up. Kelemvor is not involved with that process.
Kelemvor is only responsible for non-believers: aheists, agnostics and those who have effectively renounced their faith in word or deed by an act of betrayal against their deity.
Null is the draconic god of death. He has to pick up his dragon worshippers from the Fugue Plane same as all the other pantheons.
Please note that if a dragon worshipped the elven gods, Null would have no jurisdiction over that soul. The dragon soul would be picked up by a representative from Arvandor upon its death, and interestingly would appear as an elf in its afterlife, as do all the petitioners of Arvandor, regardless of whether they were elves or dwarves or humans or dire squids in life. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 01:10:18
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| Ironically, the particular soul that orginally made me think of this was actually Nalavara, who was an elf and yet I am almost certain the Seldarine didn't trip over themselves to claim her . . . |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 01:18:15
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You have some good points there, Gray... I guess it is a matter of perspective - how beings perceive the gods themselves. Still I would argue that this is a bit different in the Realms, where all the races (and even some cultures) have separate pantheons with separate deities, whom not just separate aspects of the same divinities (such as in Krynn).
I understand that it was Lord AO whom has given the authority to Kelemvor to act as THE God of Death, but this undermines the power of the other Death gods, if KelemvorĀ“s jurisdiction is supreme to theirs. It is a relevant point that Jergal was not a human deity, and there are other inhuman deities as well whom humans worship.
I guess the same goes for Mystra, too. As the caretaker of the Weave, she is the supreme divinity of Magic, and far superior in this aspect to Corellon, for example.
My point is that do other races and cultures acknowledge the fact that Kelemvor is THE God of Death? If they do, why would other Death gods have a significant following? ("Okay, our Osiris is mighty, BUT not as mighty as Kelemvor. It is indeed Kelemvor who weighs our souls before Lord Osiris does..."). And is this even "general" knowledge among the mortals of Faerun? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Songrimm
Acolyte
Germany
38 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 01:58:00
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| i dont think death gods are by there nature responsible for the false and the faithless. a death god of any pantheon concerns him-/herself with the dead of the worshipers of this pantheon. with death rites and memorials to be precise. good ol` Kel is the one for all those poor souls who never believed in a pantheon/god or who rejected the one god they believed in. so why should an elf god of the death hold judgment over some elf who is not believing in this god? same for other races. as these souls have nowhere to go great ao in his wisdom created THE one god of the dead. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 02:03:42
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Ironically, the particular soul that orginally made me think of this was actually Nalavara, who was an elf and yet I am almost certain the Seldarine didn't trip over themselves to claim her . . .
So itĀ“s the Wall for her |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 02:08:39
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| Unless of course she cut a deal with a devil, so to speak . . . |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 02:38:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Songrimm
i dont think death gods are by there nature responsible for the false and the faithless. a death god of any pantheon concerns him-/herself with the dead of the worshipers of this pantheon. with death rites and memorials to be precise. good ol` Kel is the one for all those poor souls who never believed in a pantheon/god or who rejected the one god they believed in. so why should an elf god of the death hold judgment over some elf who is not believing in this god? same for other races. as these souls have nowhere to go great ao in his wisdom created THE one god of the dead.
And why shouldn't the elven deity of death/dead judge that elf? It is still an "elven" soul. So then Sehanine is worthless if the elf was False or Faithless. That doesn't work in a polytheism world that FR is supposed to be represent. Why wouldn't the Mulhorandi god of death/dead judge that soul if its Faithless and False?
Also I don't buy the Mystra example because that is a whole different set of rules. The souls should not be controlled by one deity. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Songrimm
Acolyte
Germany
38 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 03:26:22
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well, kuje, good point.
i must addmit i dont know why. perhaps the other gods dont want to judge those souls or if they would do they need a place like the city of the dead to put the faf in and dont like those places.
image something like this. you are in your well deserved afterlife in arvandor and mind only the business of your patron god when suddenly you encounter this strange disruptive soul that makes fun of your god and your belives. now, wouldnt you go  => => .
and this happens more often if all the faf go to there respective planes.
perhaps someone should ask those souls that never believed or betrayed there gods in which paradies they want to live after they die. now thats a punishment! 
i say if they never cared for any god or betrayed the one they worshiped, the city of the dead it must be. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 03:33:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Songrimm
well, kuje, good point.
i must addmit i dont know why. perhaps the other gods dont want to judge those souls or if they would do they need a place like the city of the dead to put the faf in and dont like those places.
image something like this. you are in your well deserved afterlife in arvandor and mind only the business of your patron god when suddenly you encounter this strange disruptive soul that makes fun of your god and your belives. now, wouldnt you go =>=>.
and this happens more often if all the faf go to there respective planes.
perhaps someone should ask those souls that never believed or betrayed there gods in which paradies they want to live after they die. now thats a punishment!
i say if they never cared for any god or betrayed the one they worshiped, the city of the dead it must be.
But we do know, from the lore, that the Mulhorandi deity of the dead/death does judge souls. So those that worship that pantheon and are Faithless and False should go to him but they don't, they go do Kel.
It just doesn't make sense and it makes the other deities of dead/death basically worthless. :)
Let's take a Real Life example that I've used before. I'm a worshipper of the Celtic pantheon, who has it's own deity of dead/death. Now if I die and I was either a Faithless or False then Hades, of the greek pantheon, would get to judge my soul if he was the god of the dead/death of the Faerun pantheon. So the Celtic deity would be worthless. This is the same deal with the other deities of dead/death of the other pantheons that exist in FR.
Do you see how messed up this sounds? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 May 2005 03:34:43 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 03:34:20
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One of the ideas that I toyed with on a similar thread was that souls are sort of blank slates. When a creature is conceived, the soul flows into it from . . . elsewhere . . . and when a creature dies, unless that soul is tied to a deity, it starts to loose what it was in life, and thus the wall really just helps to degrade them more quickly.
The point being that a soul is a soul, not a "dragon" soul or an "elf" soul, except to the degree that the soul still associates with the life that it once had. Without the gods to "bind" the mortal experiences to the soul, it starts to "blank" and thus it is no longer an "elf" soul or what have you.
This almost seems kind of supported by the fact that anything that worships an elven deity, for example, becomes elven in appearance when entering Arvandor. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 05:27:09
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I think the mistake here is to assume that the Faerūnian pantheon is the human racial pantheon. It is not. It is the original or default pantheon of the universe. The fact that humans choose to worship them is irrelevant. Humans are native to Faerūn. Of course they worship the original pantheon.
Elves are from another universe. When they moved in they brought their gods with them (or vice versa ) but it is Ao's sandbox and so they must play by Ao's rules. They are lucky Ao lets them play at all.
Likewise dwarves are interlopers and so are their gods. Same with orcs, goblins, and halflings I believe, and gnomes? Maybe not gnomes, I don't have a take on their story yet. They may or may not be native.
Giants are weird in that they are native born but worship interloper gods. Long story.
The Mulhorandi and Untheric gods are human racial pantheons for instance that are interloper gods. They must follow the same rules as the Seldarine, the Morndinsaman and the other interloper racial pantheons, etc.
It is of course more complicated than I am presenting it, sure there are some uniquely human deities that have become a part of the Faerūnian pantheon, but Selūne, Shar, Chauntea, Tempus, Talos, Talona and the office of the Death God (though perhaps not the current occupant of that office) have been around since the creation of the universe. They preexist humanity, they are the native pantheon so they are not human racial deities. Humans just happen to worship them.
So my take on this is not that human gods trump the gods of other races. Rather, it is that Ao's rules trump all, and the native gods have certain advantages and privileges over interloper/immigrant gods only because of seniority, not because of any racism or humanocentrism. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 06:27:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I think the mistake here is to assume that the Faerūnian pantheon is the human racial pantheon. It is not. It is the original or default pantheon of the universe. The fact that humans choose to worship them is irrelevant. Humans are native to Faerūn. Of course they worship the original pantheon.
Nope this isn't the mistake because this doesn't hold up with the afterlife. No demihumans or any other races that don't worship that pantheon should be judged by the Faerun deity of dead/death.
It just doesn't make any sense in a polytheism world that is FR. Anyone that understands how those faiths work would realize this.
Hi, I don't worship you and I'm a dragon soul. What do you mean that since I only gave lip service to my dragon deity you are the one to judge me? Why can't my dragon deity of the dead/death do that? Oh because you have that job, right I see. Your just so darn special, I get it. The other deities of the dead/death are not important enough to judge the souls of the races that they are racial deities of, right gotcha. Well then you better stick me in your pretty wall then since you snubbed your nose at all the rest of the deities of the dead/death that might have judged me or anyone else that didn't worship your oh so great pantheon.
Again don't bring the Mystra thing into this because that is a whole different set of rules but no deity of the dead/death should rule the afterlife the way the Faerun deities of the dead/death do. It's just idiotic. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 May 2005 06:35:18 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 07:08:55
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Well, according to that logic, since Kelemvor is not a human racial deity, then he shouldn't judge anyone?
Your assumptions don't follow. Religion has actually little to do with race in Faerūn. A dwarf can believe in the Seldarine in FR, and if he does, then upon his death he goes to the Fugue and he is picked up by agents of the Seldarine and his soul goes to Arvandor. Kelemvor never judges him.
An elf can worship Selūne if she likes and when she dies she goes to the Fugue and agents of Selūne pick her up and take her soul to the Gates of the Moon, and she is never judged by Kelemvor or Sehanine.
A dragon can worship Bane and his soul goes to Bane upon death. Null has no say in the matter, nor Kelemvor.
The only thing that Kelemvor gets to judge is those who don't believe or those who have turned their back on the gods they believed in.
He does this because Ao has appointed him steward of the Fugue plane. All souls go there upon death. The Fugue is just a way station, a stopover on their journey to their final destination. In this sense, Kel is just the station keeper. He is in charge of maintaining the premises and keeping order.
The only reason Kel gets to judge anyone is that a) Ao wants people to believe in gods (any god apparently, just so long as they believe in someone) and b) the souls of unbelievers must be disposed of--they get no afterlife so Ao makes Kel put them in the wall, and c) Ao mandates that those who have betrayed their gods be punished.
Kel gets the job of punishing them because Ao wants a fair and impartial judge to do the job. Ao apparently feels that gods who have been betrayed cannot be fair and impartial. And anyway, if a soul has renounced or betrayed their god, then that god has no claim on them anyway as you cannot say the soul really worships them as such.
Again, Kel is not a racial god of death. He holds an office established at the begining of time that predates the existence of races and any interloper gods coming into the cosmology later in history.
But Kel doesn't make racial death gods worthless, they get to judge the dead of their faiths same as always. They still have to pick up the dead from the Fugue and get to judge those souls at the time they arrive at their respective afterlives. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 08:04:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Well, according to that logic, since Kelemvor is not a human racial deity, then he shouldn't judge anyone?
Your assumptions don't follow. Religion has actually little to do with race in Faerūn. A dwarf can believe in the Seldarine in FR, and if he does, then upon his death he goes to the Fugue and he is picked up by agents of the Seldarine and his soul goes to Arvandor. Kelemvor never judges him.
The only thing that Kelemvor gets to judge is those who don't believe or those who have turned their back on the gods they believed in.
He does this because Ao has appointed him steward of the Fugue plane. All souls go there upon death. The Fugue is just a way station, a stopover on their journey to their final destination. In this sense, Kel is just the station keeper. He is in charge of maintaining the premises and keeping order.
The only reason Kel gets to judge anyone is that a) Ao wants people to believe in gods (any god apparently, just so long as they believe in someone) and b) the souls of unbelievers must be disposed of--they get no afterlife so Ao makes Kel put them in the wall, and c) Ao mandates that those who have betrayed their gods be punished.
Kel gets the job of punishing them because Ao wants a fair and impartial judge to do the job. Ao apparently feels that gods who have been betrayed cannot be fair and impartial. And anyway, if a soul has renounced or betrayed their god, then that god has no claim on them anyway as you cannot say the soul really worships them as such.
Again, Kel is not a racial god of death. He holds an office established at the begining of time that predates the existence of races and any interloper gods coming into the cosmology later in history.
But Kel doesn't make racial death gods worthless, they get to judge the dead of their faiths same as always. They still have to pick up the dead from the Fugue and get to judge those souls at the time they arrive at their respective afterlives.
Horse manure. The afterlife has everything to do with religion, faith, unfaithful, and the deities.
You are truely not reading my replies here. Notice I never said a darn thing about those that are faithful. I've said repeatedly that it's just idiotic that he can judge those souls that DO NOT worship the Faerun pantheon if they are Faithless and of False.
Kel should ONLY judge those that are Faithless or False if they worship the Faerun pantheon.
And I beg to differ with you that the Faerun pantheon isn't a human pantheon because the 1e and 2e box sets say human deities and has a part that says nonhuman deities. Faiths & Avatars says the same. Even Faiths & Pantheons says that the four human pantheons blended together to make the Faerun pantheon and thus it's a human racial pantheon.
Because of this there are other deities of the dead/death that are perfectly capable of doing the same for thier racial pantheon of worshippers. This really isn't that hard to understand and this is how a polytheism world should work.
So none of the other deities of dead/death are fair or impartial? Why don't I buy that.
He does make the other deities of the dead/death worthless because they can't even judge thier own followers if those souls are Faithless and False. Some of your comments above make no sense either. So Kel get's to judge souls that turned thier back on thier deities since he's supposely fair and impartial? Then lets think about this and use this as an example: Sehanine should be able to judge the humans of the Faerun pantheon since she would be a fair and impartial judge of those Faithless and False since those mortals turned thier back on the Faerun deities or any of the other deities of the dead/death should be able to do that. Turn about is fair play.
Since this doesn't happen and like I said, welcome to the monotheistic Faerun pantheon. The rest the deities of the dead/death aren't needed because Kel is more important and he can judge the souls of the other races even though they never once worshipped him or any of the Faerun deities.
Yes this is idiotic and for a world that has thousands of deities and many pantheons, it makes no sense. And the only reason he got that job is because TSR/WOTC doesn't understand how a world like FR should work and how polytheism and pantheism works. It has nothing to do with AO or any of the other reasons you stated. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 May 2005 09:09:13 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 11:34:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
He does make the other deities of the dead/death worthless because they can't even judge thier own followers if those souls are Faithless and False.
I hate to argue with you, my friend, but I must point out something:
If someone is False or Faithless, then they are by definition not followers of any pantheon... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 14:02:28
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Kuje, my approach is to take Realmslore at face value and assume that it must be true and that there are consistent, sensible reasons to explain away any apparent inconsistencies or contradictions.
Some lore may appear at first blush to be nonsensical but with a little thought I believe all such errors or paradoxes can be worked out in a way that rings true and has a deep resonance for us the fans.
I use the scientific method in my approach. I know this is a fantasy universe, but by this I just mean that when you are presented with observable evidence that contradicts your theory, then you throw out the theory, not the evidence. What you observe in the universe is assumed to be true, and the theory should explain the workings of that universe. The universe should not be made to conform to a pet theory.
It is in that spirit that I have laid out what I believe to be a coherent theory that explains the working of Death in the Realms universe and conforms to the lore as revealed to us so far.
If you don't like my theory, that's cool. I am willing to agree to disagree. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 16:37:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Horse manure. The afterlife has everything to do with religion, faith, unfaithful, and the deities.
You are truely not reading my replies here. Notice I never said a darn thing about those that are faithful. I've said repeatedly that it's just idiotic that he can judge those souls that DO NOT worship the Faerun pantheon if they are Faithless and of False.
Well met
Ahem, try to be a little more polite, Kuje. Thank ye 
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Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 18:35:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I hate to argue with you, my friend, but I must point out something:
If someone is False or Faithless, then they are by definition not followers of any pantheon...
I know this. But lets use another real life example: Christians who give lip service to God. How would they feel if they died and found out that a pagan deity, they never worshipped, get's to judge them instead? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 18:38:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Kuje, my approach is to take Realmslore at face value and assume that it must be true and that there are consistent, sensible reasons to explain away any apparent inconsistencies or contradictions.
Some lore may appear at first blush to be nonsensical but with a little thought I believe all such errors or paradoxes can be worked out in a way that rings true and has a deep resonance for us the fans.
I use the scientific method in my approach. I know this is a fantasy universe, but by this I just mean that when you are presented with observable evidence that contradicts your theory, then you throw out the theory, not the evidence. What you observe in the universe is assumed to be true, and the theory should explain the workings of that universe. The universe should not be made to conform to a pet theory.
It is in that spirit that I have laid out what I believe to be a coherent theory that explains the working of Death in the Realms universe and conforms to the lore as revealed to us so far.
If you don't like my theory, that's cool. I am willing to agree to disagree.
It's not your theory I don't like it's TSR/WOTC's silly afterlife. The whole thing just stinks. TSR/WOTC did make the afterlife conform to a pet theory in that they pushed the other deities of the dead/death into a corner and said now stay there, you don't get to judge your own Faithless and False.
There is plenty of evidence that anyone who understands how polytheism works would realize that FR's afterlife is messed up. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 May 2005 18:42:39 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 00:15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Also I don't buy the Mystra example because that is a whole different set of rules.
Yes, it is a different set of rules. Still, it was never Ed“s decision to thrust that role on her, as shown in the next two quotes (actually, from those marvelous files of yours )
"Originally, Lurue WAS magic-before Julia Martin added the name Weave to my GenCon explanations of the great web of magic thats everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril, Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave."
"The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways."
So saith Ed of the Greenwood |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Dragon Souls and the Fugue Plane
