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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Mar 2005 : 06:59:12
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Interesting in that the two people I consider the best players I have ever gamed with were both raised in homes with strong traditional relgions. But, by the time I met and gamed with them, both were into non-traditional (not my phrase, so no offense intended) religions. And they are also two of the most open minded people I have ever met in my life.
Was raised that way as well but then broke from my parents religion when I was in HS, so almost 10 years ago. And I consider myself open minded as well unless someone's annoying me. :) But this isn't the place to discuss this and Big Al is going to yell at us. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 20:42:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
 Yes, I remember very clearly you and I being on the same side in a certain ongoing debate: we both felt that clerics should be allowed to serve more than one deity, and there are plenty of clerics in official FR lore who *do* serve more than one deity. However, the new 3E rule states that a cleric may only be a servant of his patron deity, and a character can have only one patron deity. The argument I've seen in favor of the "one god only" rule is basically what I mentioned before: "A cleric can only truly be faithful to one god above all the rest". Those who made such statements have never explained why characters must be semi-monotheistic--I wonder if it has to do with the fact that most of us posters come from and/or have been influenced by monotheistic (especially Christian) culture.
I think the requirement of clerics to choose one deity is more of a system issue than anything overly influenced by real world philosophy. There would need to be a set of rules to support multi-deity clerics. Of course, one could use the 'cleric with no deity, just a philosophy' idea to represent that also.
As far as patron deities; wouldn't most people, no matter how many deities they worship, still feel an affinity to one at least a little more than the others? It's not necessarily that a character thinks his patron is better, or more holy than the others, just closer in ideals and lifestyle. There's the possibility that a character doesn't really know who his patron is, too. Maybe one of the deities he worships has chosen him for a greater purpose, or maybe he's just not that in touch with his own philosophies--hasn't done all that much soul searching perhaps. But, Kelemvor would know. It's his job after all, to pick an appropriate destination for the soul.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 01:28:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
I think the requirement of clerics to choose one deity is more of a system issue than anything overly influenced by real world philosophy. There would need to be a set of rules to support multi-deity clerics. Of course, one could use the 'cleric with no deity, just a philosophy' idea to represent that also.
True enough, but 2E allowed clerics of more than one god, so why can't 3E?
quote:
As far as patron deities; wouldn't most people, no matter how many deities they worship, still feel an affinity to one at least a little more than the others?
If I said "yes" to your question, would that mean that my answer is a universal feeling, or would it be more of a cultural thing, as I was not only raised by monotheists, but also grew up surrounded by modern, Western, mostly-monotheistic civilization? After all, the New Testament teaches that "one cannot be the servant of two masters" (and I think Jesus himself might have spoken those words). Whether or not one is Christian, there is no denying that most if not all of Western civilization is very much monotheistic. This monotheistic culture would not apply to the Realms, so I don't see why modern, Western religious inclinations should also apply.
quote:
There's the possibility that a character doesn't really know who his patron is, too. Maybe one of the deities he worships has chosen him for a greater purpose, or maybe he's just not that in touch with his own philosophies--hasn't done all that much soul searching perhaps. But, Kelemvor would know. It's his job after all, to pick an appropriate destination for the soul.
This explanation has some merit. Still wouldn't agree that one should be punished for being "faithless" though (whoever made up that concept also probably never heard of pantheism). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 21:57:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
True enough, but 2E allowed clerics of more than one god, so why can't 3E?
There are a lot of things about 2E that I liked better than 3E. There's been a few times when I've wanted to throw all the 3E books off the balcony and go back to 2E. (The combat system is particularly frustrating me right now.)
quote:
If I said "yes" to your question, would that mean that my answer is a universal feeling, or would it be more of a cultural thing, as I was not only raised by monotheists, but also grew up surrounded by modern, Western, mostly-monotheistic civilization? After all, the New Testament teaches that "one cannot be the servant of two masters" (and I think Jesus himself might have spoken those words). Whether or not one is Christian, there is no denying that most if not all of Western civilization is very much monotheistic. This monotheistic culture would not apply to the Realms, so I don't see why modern, Western religious inclinations should also apply.
I think the affinity a character might feel for a patron is more akin to the choosing of a totem or a muse. A musician who lives and breaths his passion for music is going to identify more strongly with Millil than he would for Tempus, for example. As far as I can tell, there isn't any repurcussions for a lay follower to change his patron, either. So if said musician experienced some life changing events that altered how he saw the world, he could choose a new patron to reflect this. Monotheistic culture definately influences how alignments are interpreted, and that in turn influences which deities are evil/good. But when a character chooses a patron he isn't expected to honor that deity above all others. Clerics are expected to do so, but I still feel this is a system issue, and they wrote in the 'philosophy worshipping' option to compensate for settings where that wouldn't be entirely appropriate.
quote:
This explanation has some merit. Still wouldn't agree that one should be punished for being "faithless" though (whoever made up that concept also probably never heard of pantheism).
Agreed! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 01:31:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
I think the affinity a character might feel for a patron is more akin to the choosing of a totem or a muse. A musician who lives and breaths his passion for music is going to identify more strongly with Millil than he would for Tempus, for example.
I like your way of looking at it. However, what if said musician worships not only Milil, but also Oghma and Deneir, as well? Why does he have to choose between the three of them and decide which one he likes better? It is possible for him to worship all three equally?
quote:
As far as I can tell, there isn't any repurcussions for a lay follower to change his patron, either. So if said musician experienced some life changing events that altered how he saw the world, he could choose a new patron to reflect this. Monotheistic culture definately influences how alignments are interpreted, and that in turn influences which deities are evil/good. But when a character chooses a patron he isn't expected to honor that deity above all others. Clerics are expected to do so, but I still feel this is a system issue, and they wrote in the 'philosophy worshipping' option to compensate for settings where that wouldn't be entirely appropriate.
You see, I still don't believe clerics should have to stick to only one deity--if it's a system issue, I'd say the system is wrong. As long as the cleric doesn't worship extra deities to try to get extra benefits at no costs, it should be all right (in other words, you still can't take more than two domains).
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 01:39:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
[bI like your way of looking at it. However, what if said musician worships not only Milil, but also Oghma and Deneir, as well? Why does he have to choose between the three of them and decide which one he likes better? It is possible for him to worship all three equally?
You see, I still don't believe clerics should have to stick to only one deity--if it's a system issue, I'd say the system is wrong. As long as the cleric doesn't worship extra deities to try to get extra benefits at no costs, it should be all right (in other words, you still can't take more than two domains).
Don't forget poor Finder. :)
And you and I agreed before on the 2nd part of this as well and we got yelled at for doing so when this came up on the WOTC boards a few times.
I believe we both said pick domains that fit the char concept and we referenced the half-elf from the Sembia novels. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 16 Mar 2005 02:15:55 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 01:56:13
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Don't forget poor Finder. :)
Oops, I'm always forgetting Finder...
quote:
And you and I agreed before on the 2nd part of this as well and we got yelled at for doing so when this came up on the WOTC boards a few times.
I believe we both said pick a domains that fit the char concept and we referenced the half-elf from the Sembia novels. :)
Yes to both. Even with the new, 3E rules, there is a 3E character (Larajin) who is a cleric of both Sune and Hanali--I read the Sembia novels, and there was nothing to suggest that Larajin prefered one goddess over the other. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 21:58:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I like your way of looking at it. However, what if said musician worships not only Milil, but also Oghma and Deneir, as well? Why does he have to choose between the three of them and decide which one he likes better? It is possible for him to worship all three equally?
Yes, I see your point. In that case he could choose the entire House of Knowledge as his patron. But what about if the character's chosen deities don't all reside on the same plane (according to the 'new' cosmology) and he doesn't match any of their alignments? A CN barbarian from Rashemen who worships Mielikki, Chauntea, and Mystra, for example. Where does he go when he dies?
quote:
You see, I still don't believe clerics should have to stick to only one deity--if it's a system issue, I'd say the system is wrong. As long as the cleric doesn't worship extra deities to try to get extra benefits at no costs, it should be all right (in other words, you still can't take more than two domains).
Well, if the character concept demands it, than it should be done, regardless of rules. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 23:06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
Yes, I see your point. In that case he could choose the entire House of Knowledge as his patron. But what about if the character's chosen deities don't all reside on the same plane (according to the 'new' cosmology) and he doesn't match any of their alignments? A CN barbarian from Rashemen who worships Mielikki, Chauntea, and Mystra, for example. Where does he go when he dies?
This is one of the many problems with the new planes. :) Which is why some of us don't agree with WOTC's changes to the planes until they explain this retcon. The same deal can be said on the divine casters who worship more then 1 deity. And yes that was a issue in the old planes as well actually. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 02:59:52
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Again I'm going to agree with Kuje--I don't really care for the new arrangement of the planes, but you still asked a good question, Mareka.
I remember that choosing deities from two different planes wasn't forbidden back in 2E though, back when D&D acknowledged that it was allowed. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 19:14:01
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I don't see why you couldn't take multiple patron gods in 3E.
Which patron god you have selected is really only important to the mechanics of divine spellcasting. For most regular people it wouldn't matter how many gods you considered your patron. Some gods might not care for the idea. I think Bane would definitely have a problem with it.
I am sure a rule or two could be created to handle a cleric with two or more patrons. Perhaps a special feat? "Additional Patron Deity" perhaps? You might have to take the feat again for each additional patron god you wanted to take. There ought to be some benefit associated with the feat, but off the top of my head I can't think of what. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 19:16:09
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As for the disposition of mortal souls, taking the feat might require you to specify which god gets your soul when you die (like in a will).
For those who take more than one patron and do not specify a preference for who gets their soul when they croak, well, gods are supposed to be extremely wise, right? Let them figure it out. I am sure they have compacts and handshake agreements among themselves to adjudicate such problems.
I still like the idea that Sune and Sharess must have a Jello wrestling match to determine who gets the soul. The best 4 out of Seven rounds.  |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 19:17:27
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Now that I think about it, a god really just has to send a representative to the fugue plane to pick up the soul. If one shows up before the other, that's probably the one the soul goes with. If they both show up at the same time, then I guess the soul gets to choose.
As long as you are not false or faithless, I suppose Kelemvor allows you freedom to go off with anybody who wants to pick you up on the Fugue plane. He even lets you go off with devils if you choose it (even if you are tricked but go willingly). |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 02:39:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
As for the disposition of mortal souls, taking the feat might require you to specify which god gets your soul when you die (like in a will).
For those who take more than one patron and do not specify a preference for who gets their soul when they croak, well, gods are supposed to be extremely wise, right? Let them figure it out. I am sure they have compacts and handshake agreements among themselves to adjudicate such problems.
Let me say that I really like both those ideas. I'm not sure about having to take another feat to get a second patron deity (since I find the "patron deity" concept dubious to begin with), but you have a lot of great ideas on this matter, thanks for your comments (and I appreciate the comments of everyone else too).
I still cannot accept the Faithless thing though, for moral reasons. I just cannot accept that in a supposedly "morally enlightened" world like the FR, it is deemed acceptable for non-religious people to be punished simply because they don't worship any god. The very word "Faithless" is rather tricky to begin with--it can be argued that faith as we know it would be different in a world where everyone knows of the gods, has a fairly good idea of what they want, the gods can die, and the gods will even walk Toril in the form of Avatars. It's true that your "average" person in the Realms wouldn't be privy to this information, but what about someone who is? I think it's plausible that if someone knew enough about the gods, they might choose not to worship them. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 18 Mar 2005 02:40:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 03:22:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Let me say that I really like both those ideas. I'm not sure about having to take another feat to get a second patron deity (since I find the "patron deity" concept dubious to begin with), but you have a lot of great ideas on this matter, thanks for your comments (and I appreciate the comments of everyone else too).
I still cannot accept the Faithless thing though, for moral reasons. I just cannot accept that in a supposedly "morally enlightened" world like the FR, it is deemed acceptable for non-religious people to be punished simply because they don't worship any god. The very word "Faithless" is rather tricky to begin with--it can be argued that faith as we know it would be different in a world where everyone knows of the gods, has a fairly good idea of what they want, the gods can die, and the gods will even walk Toril in the form of Avatars. It's true that your "average" person in the Realms wouldn't be privy to this information, but what about someone who is? I think it's plausible that if someone knew enough about the gods, they might choose not to worship them.
Maybe that's what the punishment is about... The Faithless, while they were alive, lived in a world where the gods had a noticable impact on the world. Many deities actually get involved in the lives of their followers. So in a world where you know gods exist, and where they are responsible for everything, why shouldn't you worship them? To not worship those who gave you everything in existence is kind of a slap to the face for them -- so they slap back. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 03:36:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe that's what the punishment is about... The Faithless, while they were alive, lived in a world where the gods had a noticable impact on the world. Many deities actually get involved in the lives of their followers. So in a world where you know gods exist, and where they are responsible for everything, why shouldn't you worship them? To not worship those who gave you everything in existence is kind of a slap to the face for them -- so they slap back.
Well, my argument to that would be: any god worth worshiping wouldn't require worship. In other words, do the gods (the good gods, anyway) give for the sake of giving, or just to get something back in return? Is religion about faith, or just about quid pro quo?
That's a philosophy of mine, but perhaps it wouldn't apply to the Realms. However, the whole Faithless concept comes a little too close to real world sentiments to me, though--the gods get angry at you and punish you just because you didn't stroke their egos back when you were alive. Just because you don't worship the gods doesn't mean you are trying to insult them. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 05:43:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe that's what the punishment is about... The Faithless, while they were alive, lived in a world where the gods had a noticable impact on the world. Many deities actually get involved in the lives of their followers. So in a world where you know gods exist, and where they are responsible for everything, why shouldn't you worship them? To not worship those who gave you everything in existence is kind of a slap to the face for them -- so they slap back.
Well, my argument to that would be: any god worth worshiping wouldn't require worship. In other words, do the gods (the good gods, anyway) give for the sake of giving, or just to get something back in return? Is religion about faith, or just about quid pro quo?
That's a philosophy of mine, but perhaps it wouldn't apply to the Realms. However, the whole Faithless concept comes a little too close to real world sentiments to me, though--the gods get angry at you and punish you just because you didn't stroke their egos back when you were alive. Just because you don't worship the gods doesn't mean you are trying to insult them.
Yeah, but this is the Realms: the gods literally need to be worshipped.
And Realms deities, like those in some real-world mythologies, have a habit of acting all too human sometimes. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 06:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, but this is the Realms: the gods literally need to be worshipped.
True, but I still don't think punishment for disbelief is moral behavior.
quote:
And Realms deities, like those in some real-world mythologies, have a habit of acting all too human sometimes.
So I've noticed... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 09:40:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I still cannot accept the Faithless thing though, for moral reasons. I just cannot accept that in a supposedly "morally enlightened" world like the FR, it is deemed acceptable for non-religious people to be punished simply because they don't worship any god.
Well, two thoughts on that. The wall is not really a punishment. I don't know that the bricks are all that unhappy. The mortar eventually disolves the soul so that it merges with the Fugue Plane anyway, so it is not an eternal sentence by any means. It's a better fate than some of the evil petitioners have to endure. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 09:46:24
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Oh, and the second point is that Ao really wants people to worship gods. His universe, his rules.
When he created the universe he seems to have put a lot of effort into creating a divine infrastructure that supports and allows for a lot of deities. He made sure that everyone has at least one acceptable god they can worship, and he created incentives for people to worship them.
Ao is pretty keen on the whole god concept, so it makes sense to me that he would not reward faithlessness. He is not punishing them, just not rewarding them for their failure to choose a god. I guess it is a fine line to draw, but not providing a reward (an afterlife) is not the same thing as punishment. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 23:46:10
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Interesting points, all. Yes, it's true that we don't know for a fact that the bricks are all unhappy, but my personal perspective is being stuck in a wall until you dissolve is a type of punishment. Would it really kill AO, Kelemvor, or whoever to just let an "atheist" go to the plane of their alignment? Yes, it's probably better than some of the fates that evil people would end up with (though if an evil person worshiped a neutral god, wouldn't they end up on a place that was nice, or at least not unpleasant?).
Then there is the question: "Are you better off being a hypocrite (False), than being an honest non-believer (Faithless?)." Some of the people here said no, but I'm still not sure.
Again, it's purely a personal bias of mine--my beliefs about the subject definitely influence how I see religion in the Realms, for better or for worse. I appreciate the comments though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Sigonan
Acolyte
Greece
19 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2005 : 11:06:22
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I side with Fathomlin.
The fact that Gods DO positively exist, does not mean that everyone in Faerun has actually seen an Avatar-or anything that verifies their existence. Thus, I also believe that there should be atheists, what with all the wizards (ahem) and others roaming the Realms and producing miracles...Why should a farmer believe that a higher being can perform better ones?
So, since there is no solid proof (at least proof given freely to anyone) why must the faithless be punished to nothingness?
I would also like to refer to the "fateful coin"; the known story about Tymora and Beshaba who spin a coin for the Fate of a newborn child. Should any of the two win, the baby has good or bad luck. But sometimes, the coin lands sideways and balances there... The baby has unpredictable luck and ultimate freedom upon its Fate. Why should the child believe in anyone, since it needs no help for the shaping of its destiny? Are these children condemned?
Oh, yeah, to Wooly: I strongly disagree that the Deities of Faerun have a strong impact upon the world. The only ones that have a say about it are its inhabitants. The fact that they are involved in intrigues and "let's save the world" cases does not mean that every single person has been "touched by a Power"...Despite the fact that they are used in epic stories, it doesn't mean that they should be (according to "Faiths&Avatars")used frequently! They are gods after all.
Besides, (quoting a player of mine who plays an assassin) "just how many freaking times will the world be saved?"...and I add "how many times will the world be found in such a desperate need, that only a divine Power can save it?" |
Sigonan Darkpeeble-the multifaceted wizard |
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Sigonan
Acolyte
Greece
19 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2005 : 11:15:29
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Senbar, please excuse me for mubling for so long without answering your question
*blushes in shame*
I do not know about later products, but as far as I know, the dead go to the Gates of Kelemvor, where they receive judgement by the Even Hand. Thus death is not to be feared.
I also have questions about the "Plane of the character's alignment". Anyone cares to fill me in? |
Sigonan Darkpeeble-the multifaceted wizard |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2005 : 11:31:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Sigonan
Oh, yeah, to Wooly: I strongly disagree that the Deities of Faerun have a strong impact upon the world. The only ones that have a say about it are its inhabitants. The fact that they are involved in intrigues and "let's save the world" cases does not mean that every single person has been "touched by a Power"...Despite the fact that they are used in epic stories, it doesn't mean that they should be (according to "Faiths&Avatars")used frequently! They are gods after all.
The gods interact with their followers in many ways, both minor and major, on a daily basis. Sometimes they even drop in on their followers in person... These are entities who, with a wave of their hand, have total control over a particular concept or ideal. And you say they have no impact? How can you possibly say that?
And no, the inhabitants of the world do not have a say about it. They have no control over their world, except for minor, physical things. The gods are the ones that control the world, not the mortals. If Mystra, for example, decides to cut a mage off from the Weave, he can't do a thing about that. He's not the one who decides who has access to the Weave, it's her.
I'll agree that the gods should not be involved in every aspect of everything that goes on. But, according to the books, they are greatly involved in the world, even down to the day to day happenings. Sure, their impact might be no more than a minor sign letting a follower know he's doing the right thing, or a little pointer aiming him in the right direction, but that is still impact. Multiple that minor impact by several thousand followers, and it becomes major impact.
Something like that may not happen to everyone who worships a god, but it happens to enough people to say that yes, the gods have an impact. |
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Sigonan
Acolyte
Greece
19 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2005 : 11:56:19
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To Wooly (again!I apologize, dear Senbar):I can produce several examples (along with justifications) in which the gods have power (I mentioned that, out of character this is undeniable) but may choose not to show it and thus, some people may have not witnessed it.
I would like to open a new subject over this Wooly, in order to discuss this interesting subject. |
Sigonan Darkpeeble-the multifaceted wizard |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2005 : 16:48:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Sigonan
To Wooly (again!I apologize, dear Senbar):I can produce several examples (along with justifications) in which the gods have power (I mentioned that, out of character this is undeniable) but may choose not to show it and thus, some people may have not witnessed it.
I would like to open a new subject over this Wooly, in order to discuss this interesting subject.
Well, sure, the gods may not always exercise their power... But they have it, and they have exercised it at times in the past. I don't see how anyone can say the gods don't have an impact on the setting.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 05:57:51
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Glad to see someone agrees with me. :) Not that I mind when people disagree.
Anyway, whether the gods have a huge impact on the world or not, it is my belief that gods who are powerful and worth worshipping wouldn't be so miffed when someone chooses not to worship any of them. Not so miffed, anyway, that they would punish a person in such a cruel manner (and I do believe that the Wall is "cruel and unusual punishment"). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Apr 2005 05:58:15 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 09:19:55
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I see where you are coming from, but I just don't get why you are so offended by the Wall. The lack of a reward is not the same as a punishment.
If a father told his daughter: "If you clean up your room, I will take you to go get ice cream." And then his daughter doesn't clean her room but still demands to have ice cream, her father would be right to point out that she didn't meet the requirement and was sadly not entitled to ice cream. This is not a punishment, it is the lack of a reward which the child did not earn.
The child might cry to the heavens about how unfair and mean the daddy was, but this just makes her sound like a petulant child--which she would be if she failed to recognize that her action (or lack of it) had consequences and it was ultimately her choice whether she got ice cream or not. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 09:42:48
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In the Realms, only people who choose a god may go to that deity's afterlife. People who do not adopt a faith simply are not entitled to any kind of afterlife at all. Nor are their souls entitled to any special protection from predation by malefic forces--protection that would be gladly offered by any god in exchange for the simple act of worship.
The Faithless just have no right to complain. When offered this startling array of gods from which to choose, knowing full well the consequences of not adopting a patron, anyone who refuses the choice is just being reckless with the disposition of their own eternal soul. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 09:45:01
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And again I will say that the Wall is a better fate in the afterlife than some of the faithful endure.
The Wall is neither cruel nor unusual in that:
1) it is a very common punishment so it is not unusual, and
2) it is not cruel because, aside from possible boredom, it is not especially tortuous, as many of the Faithful who choose evil gods suffer far, far worse fates and tortures in the lower realms. |
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Beyond Death
