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Originally posted by questing gm

On annual property taxes and prices in Waterdeep and why Volo gave up Trollskull Manor

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1437251124378185734
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1437279686061699078
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1437285368278265857

Sep 13 2021

@frank_oni_oni

I just wrote an epic Reddit post on Waterdeep real estate prices and why Volo gave away Trollskull Manor away in Dragonheist.

I'd love to hear your thoughts, especially if your name is @ChrisPerkinsDnD or @TheEdVerse

https://www.reddit.com/r/WaterdeepDragonHeist/comments/pn1xyw/waterdeep_real_estate_prices_why_volo_gave/


@TheEdVerse

Great thread!

Yes, Waterdeep has annual realty taxes.

See my Twitter answers for Feb 20/20: “The nobles ignored that, so the Lords paid out of city coffers, and added it to the taxes of the two noble houses (which is, sadly, standard procedure in the city; nobles, like anyone else, who don't pay taxes in full get property seized in lieu).”

And for Apr 25/20, re. 1375 DR: “Buildings in Waterdeep didn't have numerical addresses then. (They did have "roll numbers" in the Palace tax records and floorplan registry.)”

And for Apr 29/90: “The city provides a subsidy in the form of a per-head daily ‘credit’ against temple taxes (temples are buildings, and attract a realty tax like all other city properties) that in almost all cases wipes out annual taxes and leaves most temples in the black (yes, in such situations they do receive coins or more often trade-bars from the Palace coffers).”

And (same reply thread, Apr 29/20): “The city also licenses (approves of) construction work, wines and other consumables, and the operating fitnesses of coaches, wagons, and carriages (not handcarts) to maintain public safety. It also steps in to pay for emergency repairs when roof deterioration or some other cause threatens to result in the collapse of a private building (seizing the property if the owner won’t pay or can’t be found, and working out a slow-repayment-over-time deal, otherwise).”

And on May 8/20: “a selection of scribes to quickly copy something, draw up a contract or trade agreement in quadruplicate (a copy to each party, plus a temple copy for the temple holding the money, plus a tax-record-remittance copy for the Palace).”

And on August 9/20, re. privileges of noble houses of Waterdeep: “certain tax deferrals in return for specific investments in civic works programs.”

Your construction costs for Waterdhavian buildings (twice the average base of most other places) are spot-on. Plus building permit costs, which rise substantially if a street has to be blocked off for any length of time (you’re inconveniencing not just neighbours, but traffic flow and therefore commerce in the city).

(The same inflated prices also apply in cities where space is at a premium due to lack of room for expansion [or expansion within the city walls], or where guilds are strong and therefore rates are high, and in cities that have always been expensive, like Athkatla.)

Your taxes for North Ward are too low: it’s equal to Castle Ward, not 5 percent less, and rises above that “equal” in the first two rows of city blocks (heading east) immediately adjacent to Sea Ward.

And back taxes owed is EXACTLY why Volo gave Trollskull Manor away.

@RpgMatch

Can you confirm that the property tax rate in Waterdeep is ~1% of the property price per year? It's .88% in NYC, but 2.5% in the Flemish region of Brussels.

@TheEdVerse

Nope. You're applying a flat formula across a city that, like all real-world cities, has grown over the years. Most real-world cities have the same disparities that exist in Waterdeep: taxes vary from place to place within a city, and rates also vary with social class (political clout); i.e. the nobles, AND temples, AND guilds get themselves tax breaks, and wheeler-dealer wealthy individuals broker deals with the Palace (just as in real life): I give you this land for civic purposes if you'll give me a low rate on yon property over there. In Waterdeep, the annual realty tax ("property tax") rate tends to be lower than 1 percent of the property price; Waterdeep doesn't have "mill rates," it has set taxes per property that get reviewed by the Palace (and always raised) on about a twenty-year cycle. (And the above brokering comes into play to win yourself delays in reassessment.) Waterdeep has always had a "flee south to warmer climes for the winter" problem that it has attempted to soften by keeping realty taxes low (as it has other sources of revenue like the gate taxes, docking fees, permit fees, etc.).

You can use a percentage of purchase price rate as a VERY rough guide to estimating probable taxes, but don't make the mistake of thinking the city calculates taxes that way.

It's always perilous to apply modern real-world ways of doing things to the Realms. And just a brief glance at real-world cities of any longevity (London, Paris, Rome) will reveal that as years pass, their taxation systems change radically (and are inconsistent).

For years, I've worked in public libraries, and run D&D mini-campaigns as library programs. Once I ran for five middle-aged, conservative female librarians who wanted NO bloodshed, no monsters, and no magic.

So I gave them a Waterdeep campaign that was Jane Austen-like "social whirl" on one level (daughters of ambitious guildmasters trying to break into the nobility, or at least become social equals with the weakest, poorest nobles), and on the other: turn Daddy's guild money, not quite keeping pace with his ambitions, into large fortunes by shrewd property investments (buy, sell, flip, reno, rent out, etc.), and impress Daddy so much that he lets you behave like a full guild member or more, because you understand finance and social nuance better than he does. They loved it, and as a result, we delved into (and I detailed) the byzantine property valuations, tax system, and tax dodges of Waterdeep.

And I inspired two of them to try becoming real estate magnates in real life. One had a disastrous time, but the other left her library job behind for wealth and a big mansion in Woodbridge and a trophy husband.

Ah, they grow up so fast... ;}

@VentureSatchel

Truly inspiring! I love a good bit of socioeconomics in my RPGs. Perhaps why I'm looking to play the Spreadsheet Simulator that is Traveller5.

@TheEdVerse

Just as it's possible to play LORDS OF WATERDEEP as an entirely "builder" game, outcompeting each other without open conflict (just don't use the mandatory quests cards), playing merchants competing in a law-and-order environment that prevents knifings can make for a fascinating game without PC combat. That has just as much tension and competition, and far more CHARACTER acting and bluffing, and players using their wits, than rolling of dice to decide one's fate. :}

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Originally posted by Firestorm

If I ever had a curiosity question, this is it.

Are jorunhast and Vangerdahast the same person? When azoun asked vangey "whatever happened to jorunhast" vangey dodged the question and didn't answer.

Vangey was also the first "old" royal mage when he started his position training azoun, looking 80 years old or so.

Jorunhast was a young man just out of his teens when he began apprenticing to thanderahast in 1018 till his dismissal in 1286.

I noticed Baerauble was youngish in-75 when he met the first Obaskyr and was mage royal for centuries before taking a very young Amedahast in 376 as a pupil to replace him. Amedahast was also ancient by the time she was training a young Thanedahast in 629 till 1018 when he was acid burned fighting the purple dragon.

If not, why did vangey dodged the question? Lol

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Originally posted by questing gm

On Glorindel of Waterdeep

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1442494612078096385

Sep 27 2021

@DarkElfDesigns

@TheEdVerse I see two references to characters in Waterdeep one a painter (Bard?) named Glorindel and another name Glorfindel are thes the same character and which is the correct name?

@TheEdVerse

In an article in DRAGON 179, Nigel Findley introduced the wizard-bard Glorindel of Waterdeep, maker of magical paintings.

I’ve no idea how he came up with the name, and Nigel is too dead to ask, but apparently the Tolkien estate’s lawyers were VERY quick, at the time, to make sure it wasn’t derived from the Middle-Earth elf prince Glorfindel.

For the same reason, there’s no one named “Glorfindel” in official published Realmslore. As a DM, anyone can make use of planar gates and the multiverse concept to have almost any fictional character show up in the Realms—at their gaming table.

The closest I’ve come to “Glorfindel” in Waterdeep is the halfling cook Glorarra Summermantle at Castle Waterdeep, and Glormae Indranth of the Watchful Order of Magists & Protectors, a fair-haired, rail-thin mage who goes on many Watch patrols because she gets to see stores and streets in the city she’d otherwise never visit.

Oh, and there’s a merchant named Iylas Phindrel (human, from Scornubel), who deals in blown glass window panes and glass door handles, in Trades Ward.

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Originally posted by sleyvas


Really? This is one of those things that I can see happening because of the whole using of Melnibone and Cthulhu stuff so freely at the time (that they quickly quit doing). I'd wonder nowadays if someone like J.K. Rowling would be mad if a Harold Potter appeared in Waterdeep or something. I would think the fanbase would be more mad than her.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by sleyvas


Really? This is one of those things that I can see happening because of the whole using of Melnibone and Cthulhu stuff so freely at the time (that they quickly quit doing). I'd wonder nowadays if someone like J.K. Rowling would be mad if a Harold Potter appeared in Waterdeep or something. I would think the fanbase would be more mad than her.

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I'm not sure where you're going with the Melnibone and Cthulhu stuff; James Ward has addressed that one and it was entirely above-board. And that was for one core product.

Anyway, if it was something like Harald the potter, then no one would be able to say anything. Now, a young mage with glasses and a scar on his forehead, with a similar name? That's where it gets legally ugly.

Weis & Hickman came close to reusing one of their characters in another property, but didn't *quite* go there. In the Death's Gate Cycle, a character starts to introduce himself, but then stops. I don't recall the exact line, but it was something like "My name is Fiz -- no, wait, already used that one... Zifnab! My name is Zifnab."

The character had a lot in common with Fizban, but was just different enough to avoid legal trouble. Zifnab did mention Tanis Half-Elven, but it was only a passing mention of Tanis taking a shower, whilst in Berlin in 1948. (Zifnab also mentions Gandalf, the Millennium Falcon, a certain rather NSFW movie about a young Texan woman named Debbie, and nuclear weapons - stuff Fizban certainly wouldn't have known about)

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Originally posted by sleyvas


Read what I responded to... Tolkien's people were coming at D&D in the beginning according to Ed for using the name Glorfindel. That's why I wondered if people nowadays would actually consider this something like praise. For instance, would the people who wrote the Hunt for Red October be upset over the use of "The Scarlet Marpenoth"... or would the fanbase. I'd imagine the writers couldn't give 2 farts and it might even make them smile.

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