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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1870 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 01:14:09
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I've got a throw-away reference to a valley in the Earthspur Mountains just south of the Glacier of the White Worm that is filled with fearsome predators endlessly tearing each other apart, in the absence of any other prey, as they are unable to escape the valley.
The valley is stocked by a Deepspawn, of course.
What would be good monsters to feature as the fearsome beasts?
They need to be:
1) Preferably native to the Earthspur Mountains or surrounding environments, though it's not an absolute deal-breaker if they aren't. Still, it would be more elegant if the monsters in question were suitable for the Moonsea North and the Vast.
2) Small enough to be spawned by a deepspawn (which can be of Advanced size, if needed), but large enough for humans, orcs and dwarves to find them terrifying beasts. Also, large enough not to be able to escape through a tunnel passable by a nimble dwarven scout (and, ideally, courageous human spelunkers).
3) Not intelligent enough to figure out a way out of the endless cycle of violence. Preferably of animal intelligence, but would accept cunning hunters, provided they are acceptably bestial, brutish and violent.
4) Unable to fly, climb or burrow out of a high mountain valley with sheer cliffsides, or at the very least extremely challenging mountain paths and climbs.
5) Cool-looking and suitable for a rousing tall tale of huge fierce beasts rending each other.
6) Carnivorous predators. Obviously.
Please suggest some beasts, fellow scribes!
All suggestions welcome.
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Monsters I've been mulling about include:
Remorhazes vs. frost worms
Grizzly bears vs. snow tigers
Athach vs. ettins
Digesters vs. cave trolls
Owlbears vs. hook horrors
Worgs vs. trolls
I've also considered having three types of fearsome beasts tearing at each other in the valley.
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Edited by - Icelander on 17 Aug 2018 01:18:19
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1870 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 18:32:04
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Related to 'looking cool', D&D trolls weigh famously little for their height. At 9' tall and 500 lbs., they have the approximate build of someone 5'6", 120 lbs., i.e. a gymnast or a ballet dancer. In fact, Summer Glau was around that height and weight in Fiirefly. Of course, human muscle is a lot heavier than the softer, smoother and more delightful parts of Ms. Glau's anatomy, so the proper comparison is probably a very slender athlete of 5'6" who's been starved and dehydrated to make weight at 120 lbs., being little more than bones, sinews and a thin layer of ropy, veiny muscle tissue.
Fair enough, D&D trolls are skinny, wiry, stringy beasts.
The MM picture of 'Trolls, Cave' shows them as having thicker limbs than normal trolls, decent width of shoulder, some horns and even a paunch. All in all, probably a 'normal' build compared to the very skinny regular trolls, which would make them about 30-40% heavier for their height. Unfortunately, however, cave trolls, despite being described as stronger than regular trolls and the statistics certainly bearing them out as tougher and more massive, stand 10' tall even while hunched and weigh only 800 lbs.
Now, assuming we treat both regular trolls and cave trolls as hunched, cave trolls are a foot taller. This means that adjusting for height, cave trolls are exactly as bulky as normal trolls. If we assume that normal trolls are 9' at full extension while cave trolls are more hunched over, it doesn't help. It would simply make the real height of cave trolls greater and the ratio of their height to weight thus even skinnier than normal trolls.
Now, we have three potential solutions available:
A) Troll flesh and bones are much less dense than human flesh and bones and the cave troll is even less dense than other trolls, so much so that they cannot sink in water and can in fact float with a man in full armour on top of them. I don't like this one.
B) The MM picture and description of cave trolls is wrong and they ought to be every bit as emaciated as other trolls. Nor do I like this one, as that makes cave trolls pretty much just "slightly taller trolls with much better stats, but dumb as a doornail"' instead of them appearing as something of a debased hybrid between giantkin, ogres and trolls.
C) The weight listed in the MM is a consequence of D&D writers having no sense of scale and editors rarely doing basic math to make the numbers fit the descriptions (or common sense). The weight was supposed to be something like 1,000-1,200 lbs. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1870 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 18:50:19
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Hook horrors, of course, at 9' tall and 350 lbs. (2e Monster Manual) to 400 lbs. (3e/3.5), judging by numerous pictures of them, apparently have a density of less than half that of water, superstrong exoskeleton, long limbs with claws capable of piercing stone and cleaving steel, and all.
I wonder if it's a desirable feature or not. It leads to properly treated exoskeletons being superb boats, their chitin being far better and lighter armour than steel and their claws being awesome glaives or axes, as they are much lighter than wood, much stronger, much harder and obviously hold an edge better than steel.
I'm not against monster parts being cool treasure, but I wonder if hook horror stuff really needs to be this light? Shouldn't at least their exoskeleton and claws be infused with heavy minerals or metals, to give some kind of explanation for the hardness and toughness? |
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Edited by - Icelander on 17 Aug 2018 18:51:13 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12221 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 23:50:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Related to 'looking cool', D&D trolls weigh famously little for their height. At 9' tall and 500 lbs., they have the approximate build of someone 5'6", 120 lbs., i.e. a gymnast or a ballet dancer. In fact, Summer Glau was around that height and weight in Fiirefly. Of course, human muscle is a lot heavier than the softer, smoother and more delightful parts of Ms. Glau's anatomy, so the proper comparison is probably a very slender athlete of 5'6" who's been starved and dehydrated to make weight at 120 lbs., being little more than bones, sinews and a thin layer of ropy, veiny muscle tissue.
Fair enough, D&D trolls are skinny, wiry, stringy beasts.
The MM picture of 'Trolls, Cave' shows them as having thicker limbs than normal trolls, decent width of shoulder, some horns and even a paunch. All in all, probably a 'normal' build compared to the very skinny regular trolls, which would make them about 30-40% heavier for their height. Unfortunately, however, cave trolls, despite being described as stronger than regular trolls and the statistics certainly bearing them out as tougher and more massive, stand 10' tall even while hunched and weigh only 800 lbs.
Now, assuming we treat both regular trolls and cave trolls as hunched, cave trolls are a foot taller. This means that adjusting for height, cave trolls are exactly as bulky as normal trolls. If we assume that normal trolls are 9' at full extension while cave trolls are more hunched over, it doesn't help. It would simply make the real height of cave trolls greater and the ratio of their height to weight thus even skinnier than normal trolls.
Now, we have three potential solutions available:
A) Troll flesh and bones are much less dense than human flesh and bones and the cave troll is even less dense than other trolls, so much so that they cannot sink in water and can in fact float with a man in full armour on top of them. I don't like this one.
B) The MM picture and description of cave trolls is wrong and they ought to be every bit as emaciated as other trolls. Nor do I like this one, as that makes cave trolls pretty much just "slightly taller trolls with much better stats, but dumb as a doornail"' instead of them appearing as something of a debased hybrid between giantkin, ogres and trolls.
C) The weight listed in the MM is a consequence of D&D writers having no sense of scale and editors rarely doing basic math to make the numbers fit the descriptions (or common sense). The weight was supposed to be something like 1,000-1,200 lbs.
C |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12221 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2018 : 23:51:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Hook horrors, of course, at 9' tall and 350 lbs. (2e Monster Manual) to 400 lbs. (3e/3.5), judging by numerous pictures of them, apparently have a density of less than half that of water, superstrong exoskeleton, long limbs with claws capable of piercing stone and cleaving steel, and all.
I wonder if it's a desirable feature or not. It leads to properly treated exoskeletons being superb boats, their chitin being far better and lighter armour than steel and their claws being awesome glaives or axes, as they are much lighter than wood, much stronger, much harder and obviously hold an edge better than steel.
I'm not against monster parts being cool treasure, but I wonder if hook horror stuff really needs to be this light? Shouldn't at least their exoskeleton and claws be infused with heavy minerals or metals, to give some kind of explanation for the hardness and toughness?
Just to note, some earlier dragon articles dealt with using hook horror exoskeletons to make armor. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2018 : 00:26:42
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Bearhound (MM3)
winter wolves
Mastodon (MM3)
quaraphon (MM3)
tusk terrors (MM5)
cave dinosaurs (miniatures handbook)
throw the half-troll template on something relatively normal just to make it weird.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 18 Aug 2018 01:15:03 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1870 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2018 : 16:03:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to note, some earlier dragon articles dealt with using hook horror exoskeletons to make armor.
And I certainly want to encourage the use of exoskeleton armour.
But I wonder whether such armour should be five times less dense than leather and therefore only 20% the weight of leather armour, assuming the same thickness.
Personally, I'd prefer it be much harder and tougher than leather, but it doesn't have to be less dense as well. If it has a specific density of less than half that of water, it's probably infinitely stronger than steel by weight, as the Hook Horror has equivalent protection to steel Full Plate harness from his exoskeleton, which cannot be all that thick on his limbs and other flexible locations. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2522 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 11:24:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Related to 'looking cool', D&D trolls weigh famously little for their height. At 9' tall and 500 lbs.
BTW, source on weight?
quote:
Fair enough, D&D trolls are skinny, wiry, stringy beasts.
[...]
Now, we have three potential solutions available:
A) Troll flesh and bones are much less dense than human flesh and bones and the cave troll is even less dense than other trolls,
Trolls need to be fairly light for any narrations where trolls get knocked away by anything less than a minotaur or very big orc.
What they partially consist of plant or fungal tissue? 
quote:
so much so that they cannot sink in water and can in fact float with a man in full armour on top of them. I don't like this one.
Only as long as it doesn't drown. Trolls have lungs. Probably.
quote:
C) The weight listed in the MM is a consequence of D&D writers having no sense of scale and editors rarely doing basic math to make the numbers fit the descriptions (or common sense). The weight was supposed to be something like 1,000-1,200 lbs.
That, too. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1870 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2018 : 17:20:10
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Sources for troll weights include the 3.5 Monster Manual (2003) p. 247. No doubt it's in other MM books featuring trolls as well, but that's the one that was handy.
In any case, trolls have been described as 'skinny', 'thin', 'frail' and with similar descriptive terms ever since their first appearance in (A)D&D. This, of course, goes back to their inspiration in the fictional archetype found in Poul Anderson's 'Three Hearts and Three Lions (trolls exist in mythological sources, but rubber-skinned, emaciated, long-nosed regenerating trolls came to D&D through Anderson's work). |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2522 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2018 : 10:56:55
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BTW, yes, this regeneration thing. It needs extra material.
So a troll needs to be that weird plus something like a living protomatter collector. Do they still regenerate if Ethereal is inaccessible? !!SCIENCE!! is required. Also, do they quickly wither and "dry up" when killed? Because if not, that would make them far too good as a food source (for dragons, oozes, etc).
This function could be also provided by a symbiotic plant, something like infinity vine. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1870 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2018 : 17:29:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Bearhound (MM3)
winter wolves
Mastodon (MM3)
quaraphon (MM3)
tusk terrors (MM5)
cave dinosaurs (miniatures handbook)
throw the half-troll template on something relatively normal just to make it weird.
Thanks for that.
I'm definitely using the Cave Dinosaurs for something else. Tusk Terrors and Quraphons are really freaky.
The Miniatures Handbooks contains a bunch of interesting monsters. I hadn't remembered about that. Thanks a lot for pointing me toward it.
Displacer Serpents are totally going in my subterranean Unthalass setting. I'll find a way to use Shadow Beasts somehow, mainly because the Girrash are cool.
And the Kruthik and Mad Slashers seem like suitable fearsome beasts to tear apart Cave Trolls and/or Digesters in my Valley of Frenzied Beasts. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12221 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2018 : 23:44:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Bearhound (MM3)
winter wolves
Mastodon (MM3)
quaraphon (MM3)
tusk terrors (MM5)
cave dinosaurs (miniatures handbook)
throw the half-troll template on something relatively normal just to make it weird.
Thanks for that.
I'm definitely using the Cave Dinosaurs for something else. Tusk Terrors and Quraphons are really freaky.
The Miniatures Handbooks contains a bunch of interesting monsters. I hadn't remembered about that. Thanks a lot for pointing me toward it.
Displacer Serpents are totally going in my subterranean Unthalass setting. I'll find a way to use Shadow Beasts somehow, mainly because the Girrash are cool.
And the Kruthik and Mad Slashers seem like suitable fearsome beasts to tear apart Cave Trolls and/or Digesters in my Valley of Frenzied Beasts.
Yeah, I like the Ghirrash visual so much that I was putting some "native" versions over in Katashaka without ties to shadow, basically because displacer beasts, kamadans, and kamatlans are pretty common and these "humanoids" are like a variation of them possibly created by possibly one of the creator races long ago.
These red wizards however also face much more determined and dangerous foes, many of whom possess powerful magics themselves. Latoombe, City of Tricksters, is a city ruled by a council of rakshasa which also possesses many shapeshifting cat folk including many lyncanthropes (such as weretigers, werepanthers, werejaguars, and wereleopards) whose humanoid form is often that of a gnoll or tabaxi. The common folk of this city are the Paka, an anthropomorphic cat folk of all colors normally found amongst cats great and small, many of whom are warlocks or priests beholden to powers of the nine hells. The Paka are shapechangers which can take on human form, but which also have the ability to see and hear through the eyes of nearby cats and other feline creatures, as well as the ability to dominate such creatures to their will. There is also a type of catfolk that the red wizards call the Ghirrash, a black-furred, sometimes tiger striped (both white and orange), and sometimes leopard spotted breed of humanoid cat folk who some believe to be related to the displacer beasts due to their four arms and natural displacement ability. Whether these cat folk are truly related to the shadowbeasts known as the Ghirrash is debatable, as these Ghirrash lack many of the traits common to creatures of the shadowfell, and they actually call themselves the Pumaji. There is also a race of catfolk similar to the Pumaji in coloration, but rather than 4 arms, they have two arms and 4 snake-headed tentacles that grow from their shoulders, and their tails sometimes end in rattles. This race is known as the Kamadji, and many notice an obvious similarity between them and the kamatlan cat. Also, unlike the Pumaji, they lack the displacement effect. The numbers of humans being sacrificed upon the altars of this city has risen markedly since they began to leave the safety of the Katashakan Priador, and this city's owlcat mounted cavalry has even been known to raid the Katashakan Priador in the middle of the night.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1870 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2026 : 21:16:15
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For my Valley of the Frenzied Beasts, as well as for any scenario where a closed ecology, like a dungeon, is 'kept stocked by deepspawn', what are those deepspawn themselves eating to produce all those monsters?
Can they derive subsistence from underground magical radiance, faerzress?
Do they have a connection to some far Outer Realms, from whence they draw not only energy, but also primordial ooze they can shape into creatures which they have eaten? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4704 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2026 : 21:42:58
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quote:
If the deepspawn could claim resources from the dead and dying on a battlefield, it could produce a new spawn every three days. Typically, it gathered materials from the wild and could only produce offspring at a much slower rate.
Appears to depend on what and how much there is to eat. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1081 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2026 : 09:40:03
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Keep in mind a deepspawn is not going to produce a creature mighty enough to maul and devour deepspawn. Also consider entities that would love to raid this valley for specimens. 1. Followers of Malar. 2. The Beast Lord (alhoon mage) of the Dekanther Mountains.3. Halaster Blackcloak - who of course will snag a few to stock Undermountain, gist them with fly and burrow capabilities, reasonable intellect and "accidentally" set them loose in the surface world of Waterdeep.
Do you have a way to conceal this valley from potent scryings? |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1870 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2026 : 11:51:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
If the deepspawn could claim resources from the dead and dying on a battlefield, it could produce a new spawn every three days. Typically, it gathered materials from the wild and could only produce offspring at a much slower rate.
Appears to depend on what and how much there is to eat.
Indeed, so in a case where deepspawn are the explanation for how there can be a glut of creatures appearing in a closed ecosystem, like a sealed dungeon, what do they use to fuel their creation of new monsters?
So often, deepspawn mainly serve the purpose of explaining how there are far more living creatures somewhere than could be justified with the available calories. In order to do that, they have to be able to produce calories from nothing or eat something that ordinary living creatures cannot eat.
From the fact that they can Heal themselves 1/day, they appear to be able to produce their own living tissue from nothing, magically. They also regenerate their eyestalks and other limbs as noted in 2e materials, though more slowly than the instant Heal they can perform for their central body.
It's not surprising that they should be able to do that, as they are not natural creatures in any way, and while they do eat, from most of their appearances in fiction and published adventures, they can produce their spawn even if there is not much to eat, and deepspawn appear rarely, if ever, to starve to death, despite the Underdark not having a lot of food.
In fact, the Valley of Frenzied Beasts, where three trapped deepspawn produce hook horrors, digesters and cave trolls, locked in an eternal struggle with each other, might have been set up to provide amusement or some esoteric purpose by the original makers, but for the clan of frost giants who control it now, it's an ever-restocking meat locker.
Sure, the only things less appetizing than cave troll meat might be hook horror flesh or the acidic carcasses of digesters, but during winter, when even the hinterlands below the snowline are not producing any fodder and few animals are even available to hunt, the giants can supplement their stored rations with those three disgusting sources of protein.
The original makers sealed the three deepspawn in their own individual caves or cubbies, with no passage out wide enough to admit the central body of the deepspawn, but exactly large enough to let them spawn their type of creature into the cliff-enclosed floor of the valley. They also thought about eternal food sources for the deepspawn, because otherwise, the valley couldn't exist, at least, not with constantly respawning monsters in it.
The original creator of the trapped ecosystem of three deepspawn eternally competing for an insignificant valley might have been a rogue wizard, but is much more likely to have been one of the experiment-happy beast cultists of Ironfang Keep, or even some of the priests serving Haask, while the minotaur kingdom of Grong-Haap still stood.
The surrounding mountains are above the snowline and arms of the Glacier of the White Worm extend past it on both sides. In fact, either some magical effect prevented the glacier from extending into the valley itself or maybe the valley was under ice until the 11th century Dale Reckoning, with the deepspawn trapped in the ice, but not dying, as normal beasts would have.
If deepspawn can derive nutrition from something natural creatures cannot and convert this to spawn, this fits much better with scenarios where deepspawn are the explanation of how there are more animals or monsters in a given ecosystem than the food sources would justify.
And it would help explain how the giants survive despite holding less farmland below the snowline than should be able to feed so many, as they can always eat the disgusting monsters spawned by the three deepspawn. The giants have even installed a pulley system of blocks and tackles in several locations around the Valley of Frenzied Beasts, so that they can pull up the carcasses of the beasts they harpoon.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1870 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2026 : 12:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Keep in mind a deepspawn is not going to produce a creature mighty enough to maul and devour deepspawn.
Uh... okay?
What does that have to do with anything?
There are three deepspawn, all trapped in their individual way. Each of them started out spawning different creatures, one hook horrors, one digesters, and one cave trolls, but as their 'war' ebbed and flowed, their spawned servitors were able to bring defeated monsters of the two other types to them and they ate of them, all three becoming able to spawn all three types.
The hook horrors are the only ones able to get out of the valley, if they simply scale the walls. Their light sensitivity means that they are only likely to do so at night, but as getting up there only means being out on a glacier, there is little advantage for the deepspawn in having them get up there, except maybe to annoy the giants. To the giants, in fact, it's not even very annoying, as it lets them hunt a hook horror up there, without having to haul it up afterwards.
All three deepspawn, while genius-level intellects, are obsessed with beating the other two, and the only apparent way to do so is getting their controlled creatures to take and hold enough of the valley so that they can seize the passageway that lies down to one of the other deepspawn, and kill them.
The fact that the deepspawn are easily able to defend themselves from such attack might be one reason why their 'war' is eternal, but it is not like the trapped deepspawn have anything better to do. All three of them were placed in their prisons newly hatched and fed on just the one monster of the type they originally produced, so while they might have the potential for genius, they've only been able to apply their wits to the 'war' with the other two. They know nothing of the rest of the world, except some glimpses of surface thoughts they've gleaned from giants who've actually climbed down to the valley and happened to pass by an exact spot there where there is not enough intervening rock to block ESP. Giants who harpoon the beasts from above and haul them up with block and tackle are behind rock from the perspective of the trapped deepspawn, so the deepspawn can't detect their thoughts.
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Also consider entities that would love to raid this valley for specimens. 1. Followers of Malar. 2. The Beast Lord (alhoon mage) of the Dekanther Mountains.3. Halaster Blackcloak - who of course will snag a few to stock Undermountain, gist them with fly and burrow capabilities, reasonable intellect and "accidentally" set them loose in the surface world of Waterdeep.
I don't think that hook horrors, digesters or cave trolls are so scarce in the rest of the Realms that Halaster Blackcloak has to look for them in a valley which is as far from Waterdeep as Maztica is. The Mines of Dekanter, in the Greypeak Mountains, are at least slightly closer than that, but just because scrying and teleportation exists doesn't mean that magical creatures are equally likely to be concerned with things half a continent away as they are with events in nearby lands.
The most valuable creatures in the valley would be the three deepspawn, of course, but it is harder to reach them than the cave trolls, digesters and hook horrors in the open. And evidently, no one has stolen them yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Do you have a way to conceal this valley from potent scryings?
No, none. Those who know the mountains well know about it. The only mystery about it is who bound and trapped three deepspawn for what appears to be a simple game, but most sages guess that the answer has something to do with Ironfang Keep, which is only the length of the glacier away. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 06 Jan 2026 09:08:16 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1870 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2026 : 09:11:48
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If we work from the assumption that these things have something to do with Grong-Haap, the kingdom of Haast, the greathorn minotaur (who was really an elder doppleganger), it's possible that Elemental Earth energy of some kind is feeding the deepspawn.
How might that work? What kind of nutrients are the deepspawn getting from a connection to the Elemental Earth? Are deepspawn capable of drawing nutrition from the ground, as plants do? Sifting through water to nourish themselves from various biological stuff in it, like fish or huge aquatic mammals?
Maybe. Does anyone have other ideas? |
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Deepspawn-spawned Fearsome Beasts in Earthspurs
