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Ozreth
Learned Scribe
229 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Oct 2025 : 23:26:08
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I've seen mention that spelljamming and/or travel to other worlds was affected by the changes to cosmology in the 3e realms. How so?
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2025 : 23:33:00
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| I think it had more to do with the fact that there was no 3.0/3.5 book sold concerning Spelljammer...so it was mostly overlooked/ignored. Perhaps there were no "Crystal Spheres" at all. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2025 : 06:12:26
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| -During the 3e era, there were a handful of mentions of Spelljammer-related stuff in A Grand History of the Realms, and most specifically that I can recall, there were characters from another planet and an actual crashed spelljammer in one of the LRPG Malatra: The Living Jungle adventures. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Scots Dragon
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
117 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2025 : 13:34:23
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| It helps that most of the actual novel and supplement writers seemed to quietly ignore the new cosmology and pretend it wasn't a thing whenever they could get away with doing so. |
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Ozreth
Learned Scribe
229 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2025 : 16:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
It helps that most of the actual novel and supplement writers seemed to quietly ignore the new cosmology and pretend it wasn't a thing whenever they could get away with doing so.
What was the issue they needed to ignore, did it affeect Spelljamming? |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
1022 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2025 : 18:30:03
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Are you sure you're not thinking of the changes 5E just made to Spelljamming. the 3E FRCS alludes to spelljamming on p 230-231, but there's nothing there that invalidates 2e Spelljammer lore.
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Scots Dragon
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
117 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2025 : 20:28:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
It helps that most of the actual novel and supplement writers seemed to quietly ignore the new cosmology and pretend it wasn't a thing whenever they could get away with doing so.
What was the issue they needed to ignore, did it affeect Spelljamming?
Generally nothing, because they ignored it.
But also we saw Spelljamming references in the novel Blackstaff. |
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Ozreth
Learned Scribe
229 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2025 : 00:15:05
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Are you sure you're not thinking of the changes 5E just made to Spelljamming. the 3E FRCS alludes to spelljamming on p 230-231, but there's nothing there that invalidates 2e Spelljammer lore.
It certainly could be that. I wish I could recall where I read what I did. |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
301 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2025 : 09:43:52
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| Well, fast interstellar flight/transport may be largely ignored by some aspects of D&D Lore, but it's certainly used in the video games. BG2 and BG3 definitely had it. BG2 even had a Spelljammer ship in the game. BG3 had the Githyankee using Portals for fast, distant travel, but the game did NOT show a Spelljammer wooden ship. |
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Scots Dragon
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
117 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2025 : 11:45:41
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quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
Well, fast interstellar flight/transport may be largely ignored by some aspects of D&D Lore, but it's certainly used in the video games. BG2 and BG3 definitely had it. BG2 even had a Spelljammer ship in the game. BG3 had the Githyankee using Portals for fast, distant travel, but the game did NOT show a Spelljammer wooden ship.
Mostly because the Spelljamming ship we saw was a mind flayer Nautiloid. Notably plenty of people seemed to generally know what it was as an object, though. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2025 : 11:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-During the 3e era, there were a handful of mentions of Spelljammer-related stuff in A Grand History of the Realms,
GHotR contains no mechanics, of course, but it covers Spellplague. Thus not a 3e era source.
quote:
and most specifically that I can recall, there were characters from another planet and an actual crashed spelljammer in one of the LRPG Malatra: The Living Jungle adventures.
The Oscray, that is Scro who transparently renamed themselves once more.
Living Jungle (RPGA campaign, published in Polyhedron) was made in AD&D2 era, however (first published in Polyhedron #102, December 1994). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Scots Dragon
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
117 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2025 : 23:07:48
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-During the 3e era, there were a handful of mentions of Spelljammer-related stuff in A Grand History of the Realms,
GHotR contains no mechanics, of course, but it covers Spellplague. Thus not a 3e era source.
I think it's the official 'last 3e sourcebook' and thus features a mention of the Spellplague as setup for 4e. Certainly it doesn't feature much else past 1385 DR, so it's easily ignorable for the most part. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8032 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2025 : 04:16:50
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Spelljammer was creative and interesting, a fine setting filled with grandly romantic imagery. I liked it.
But Spelljammer was also a complete flop.
It was too weird. Too inconsistent. Too filled up with long drawn-out dull and dreary travel times which players and their characters despise.
And worst of all, the published Spelljammer products were sadly a consistently poor quality, they seemed rather confusing and amateurish, almost like half-assed magazine article stuff. Not TSR's finest products.
The entire Spelljammer setting was basically a teething pain which got reworked and evolved/recycled into the basis of the Planescape setting. That's why they're so thematically similar.
The 1990s were a period of then-new experimental and edgy "out there" RPG settings which dared to pull away from yet another generic olde pseudo-medieval pseudo-Middle-Earth ripoff. D&D without the generic elves and dwarves and fantasy kingdoms which had always been the core of the D&D genre was then a wild and exciting novelty. But Spelljammer just wasn't able to deliver on its grand ambitions, at least in part because of the bewildering and janky way it was presented.
Then the 2000s weren't really ready for such "out there" settings either. Spelljammer and Planescape still each have small, dedicated followings - but neither of them really gained enough traction to develop forward when their ideas were timely. Some D&D sourcebooks, adventures, and novels still have small callbacks to Spelljammer and Planescape (mainly because individual authors were fans of certain old lore) but for the most part these old settings have just been swept under the rug and forgotten. D&D 3E's new cosmology was basically the metaphorical equivalent of putting a big heavy chunk of furniture on top of that rug in an extra effort to forever bury all the old dirt that was swept underneath it.
The answer to the OP's question is that, overall, 3E's new cosmology "affected" spelljamming by tacitly pretending it never really existed. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Oct 2025 04:33:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2025 : 20:35:02
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In my opinion, I think Spelljammer suffered as a setting from a lack of coordination, and from an inability to suspend disbelief enough.
I remain a fan of the 2E Spelljammer -- my username comes from there -- but there was an apparent lack of coordination between those working on the setting, and a definite lack of coordination between those integrating it with other D&D settings. Look at things like how Realmspace has lore about Toril not backed up in any FR product, or how Krynnspace contradicts a considerable amount of Dragonlance lore about Krynn's moons.
I've also seen people that simply couldn't accept space travel where explosive decompression and zero gravity weren't factors. Tell them you've got a wooden ship with people casually standing on the open deck, with no protection, in orbit around a planet, and those people are immediately asking about the next setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Oct 2025 00:47:00 |
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Ozreth
Learned Scribe
229 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2025 : 22:55:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've also seen people that simply couldn't accept space travel where explosive decompression and zero gravity weren't factors. Tell them you've got a wooden ship with people casually standing on the open deck, with no protection, in orbit around a planet, and those people are immediately asking about the next setting.
Meanwhile I am currently reading through Under Illefarn Anew and am reminded that this module has the Duke of Daggerford ask level 1 characters to travel down to The Way Inn just to check if the road is safe for some caravans to come through and later asks the party and some soliders to split up and follow some paths to find his abducted daughter, when the Duke has several high level wizards under his command who could complete both tasks basically instantaneously.
Kinda just the way the Realms goes, and the best thing Eberron took care of, IMO. |
Edited by - Ozreth on 11 Oct 2025 22:57:37 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8032 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2025 : 01:08:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've also seen people that simply couldn't accept space travel where explosive decompression and zero gravity weren't factors. Tell them you've got a wooden ship with people casually standing on the open deck, with no protection, in orbit around a planet, and those people are immediately asking about the next setting.
D&D is a game where a scrawny nerd with a pointy hat can use secret words to throw fireballs and lightning bolts at dragons. Where one heroic warrior can singlehandedly slaughter an entire army in hand-to-hand combat. Where prayers can bring dead disbelievers back to life. Where orcs and giants and zombies and gods walk the world.
There's already so much unrealism and implausibility baked into the fabric of the genre that sailing a wooden ship to the moon without wearing a spacesuit seems pretty ordinary and tame. (And people unable to accept this impossibility seem equally ordinary and tame.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Oct 2025 01:14:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2025 : 02:40:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've also seen people that simply couldn't accept space travel where explosive decompression and zero gravity weren't factors. Tell them you've got a wooden ship with people casually standing on the open deck, with no protection, in orbit around a planet, and those people are immediately asking about the next setting.
D&D is a game where a scrawny nerd with a pointy hat can use secret words to throw fireballs and lightning bolts at dragons. Where one heroic warrior can singlehandedly slaughter an entire army in hand-to-hand combat. Where prayers can bring dead disbelievers back to life. Where orcs and giants and zombies and gods walk the world.
There's already so much unrealism and implausibility baked into the fabric of the genre that sailing a wooden ship to the moon without wearing a spacesuit seems pretty ordinary and tame. (And people unable to accept this impossibility seem equally ordinary and tame.)
Pretty much any game has odd things that are ignored and other odd things that seriously bother people. I used to play BattleTech, a game set in the future where we have FTL technology but forgot how to make heat-seeking missiles. One of the elements of gameplay is that even laser weapons have ridiculously short ranges, to the point that I joke about shooting further with a Super Soaker. Yet some people accept that without question and then turn around and write freaking essays on how a fusion engine couldn't possibly explode. I once had a guy harassing me because I said it didn't make sense that a weapon could hit a target and do full damage if the target was within the weapon's range, but if the target was even one centimeter outside that range, it couldn't possibly be hit, even if the target was immobilized. Dude simply would not stop throwing walls of numbers at me, which he claimed would prove his point, and when I tried to get out of the conversation, he sent several PMs on it.
Yeah, none of that behavior makes sense. But even here, we've had people argue about things like how a D&D economy wouldn't actually work, or how two particular types of sailing ship couldn't possibly exist concurrently because they didn't in the real world, etc.
We all have some point where we are unable to suspend disbelief. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12191 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2025 : 13:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've also seen people that simply couldn't accept space travel where explosive decompression and zero gravity weren't factors. Tell them you've got a wooden ship with people casually standing on the open deck, with no protection, in orbit around a planet, and those people are immediately asking about the next setting.
D&D is a game where a scrawny nerd with a pointy hat can use secret words to throw fireballs and lightning bolts at dragons. Where one heroic warrior can singlehandedly slaughter an entire army in hand-to-hand combat. Where prayers can bring dead disbelievers back to life. Where orcs and giants and zombies and gods walk the world.
There's already so much unrealism and implausibility baked into the fabric of the genre that sailing a wooden ship to the moon without wearing a spacesuit seems pretty ordinary and tame. (And people unable to accept this impossibility seem equally ordinary and tame.)
Pretty much any game has odd things that are ignored and other odd things that seriously bother people. I used to play BattleTech, a game set in the future where we have FTL technology but forgot how to make heat-seeking missiles. One of the elements of gameplay is that even laser weapons have ridiculously short ranges, to the point that I joke about shooting further with a Super Soaker. Yet some people accept that without question and then turn around and write freaking essays on how a fusion engine couldn't possibly explode. I once had a guy harassing me because I said it didn't make sense that a weapon could hit a target and do full damage if the target was within the weapon's range, but if the target was even one centimeter outside that range, it couldn't possibly be hit, even if the target was immobilized. Dude simply would not stop throwing walls of numbers at me, which he claimed would prove his point, and when I tried to get out of the conversation, he sent several PMs on it.
Yeah, none of that behavior makes sense. But even here, we've had people argue about things like how a D&D economy wouldn't actually work, or how two particular types of sailing ship couldn't possibly exist concurrently because they didn't in the real world, etc.
We all have some point where we are unable to suspend disbelief.
well put. Everyone (myself included) has their weird idiosyncracies.
For instance, I have zero problem with the idea that the artificers of Mulhorand used to basically have something resembling "nuclear plants" without producing electricity... but more of the cogwork/spinning wheel type of steam engine type technology of the 18th century.... until they had some kind of issues (meltdowns?). I know other folk would hate this idea. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ozreth
Learned Scribe
229 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2025 : 07:17:33
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Turns out it was Planescape that I had seen something mentioned about in this regard. And here is a quote from Wooly on an old thread:
“ Before 3E, several of TSR's campaign settings, particular the Realms and Greyhawk, shared a common planar structure. Among other things, this made it easy to step across the planes to go from one campaign setting to another.
The planar structure described in Planescape was the planar structure of the Realms. The connections were in a lot of material, mostly in the form of portals to the planes or planar travelers. Planescape and the Realms were linked, but knowledge of one was not required for playing in the other. Depending on the campaign, you could venture all across the Realms and retire comfortably, never having left the Realms. Or you could start in the Realms, bop back and forth into the planes, and settle elsewhere...
So whether or not Planescape had a place in the Realms was up to the individual campaign. The connection was officially there, but nothing required using that connection.
Of course, then 3E came along and retconned it all... There is, in 3E, a canon connection to Sigil, which was in Planescape, but the Realms of 3E and later had a different planar structure and were disconnected from Planescape.” |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8032 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2025 : 15:50:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozreth
Of course, then 3E came along and retconned it all... There is, in 3E, a canon connection to Sigil, which was in Planescape, but the Realms of 3E and later had a different planar structure and were disconnected from Planescape.”
Spelljammer and Planescape were also retcons, strictly speaking.
Because they changed the rules and the explanations behind them.
Although they imposed these changes in an organic fashion, they were closely integrated and intercompatible with existing lore. They added new things without taking anything old away.
You could use Spelljammer/Planescape to enrich or shift focus of your campaign - or you could continue moving forward without them as you always did before - neither approach was required or exclusive or "wrong".
3E (and 4E, and 5E, etc) added new things to the realms and the world and the cosmology by literally deleting incompatible old things off the map.
You had to take these new things as a package deal - along with understanding that the old package was entirely destroyed/gone or with the "things were always this way" pretense that the old package had never even existed/happened. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Oct 2025 16:03:30 |
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How was spelljamming affected by the 3e realms?
