| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
1neuro11
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Oct 2025 : 21:32:10
|
So, working on some story beats for my campaign and I came to the part where the BBEG dies. I know that mortal souls are sent to the Fugue Plane where they can wait up to a tenday before a divine servant came to collect them for whatever god claimed their soul. Or they could strike up a bargain and serve in the Nine Hells or no one could claim them and they would just kind of fade away unless the Lord of Death judged them first.
This is all great and straightforward for the most part, but my BBEG isn't ever so easy to pin an answer too. Manshoon. What happens when one of the clones of Manshoon that survived the Manshoon War's dies? Are all of the different Manshoon's just fragmented pieces of the OG Manshoon? Or do they get their own soul and afterlife, independent of the Mainshoon?
My players have unfortunately made a life long enemy of Manshoon (the one from the Waterdeep: Dragon Heist module) and they have thought they killed him a few times, but oops, just a simulacrum. The big end of the campaign will be a final showdown with the full powered Manshoon clone. But will he show up on the Fugue Plane ready to be claimed by Bane? Or try and bargain a deal out of the Nine Hells? Or does his fragment return to Mainshoon, HighLander style?
I'm cool with having to make my own lore, but wanted to see what the minds of Candlekeep thought and if there was ever an answer to a similar question on Manshoon or other clone shenanigans. Thanks!
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4255 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2025 : 22:40:14
|
IF the very last clone of Manshoon were to ever be destroyed...then you would have to worry about him going to judgement.
Until all of the Manshoons are gone, he is safe in my book. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
 |
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2025 : 03:48:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
IF the very last clone of Manshoon were to ever be destroyed...then you would have to worry about him going to judgement.
Until all of the Manshoons are gone, he is safe in my book.
Kill and destroy *every* clone? Successfully completing a task that Elminster has repeatedly failed to do is no small order.
The Cloneshoons all have linked minds and essences, they're all fully aware of each other, that's why they've each gone insane.
Just like the old-rules spell description for clone said would happen.
(Manshoon's excessive villainy and paranoia, and his obsessive drive to magically avoid getting killed seem to suggest he was already irredeemably insane, anyhow. And Vampshoon, along with clones of Vampshoons, sort of put an extra twist on that dagger of the mind into irrevocable insanity.)
So it seems fair to assume the cloneshoons all share the same eternal soul (or whatever), as well.
Just like any other character wouldn't ever truly face an eternal afterlife as long as any of his clones still existed. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2025 : 04:37:42
|
| It wasn't an issue if the multiple clones stayed away from each other, or if a clone became something other than a living Manshoon clone -- which is why Vampshoon didn't have any issues. A Manshoon that became an elf or a dragonborn or Womanshoon or something wouldn't have an issue, either. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
tomholland
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2025 : 08:52:17
|
| I’ve always interpreted Manshoon’s situation as a kind of magical paradox. Each clone is a true duplicate—not just of body, but of soul essence at the moment of creation. So in a way, they’re all fragments of the same spiritual whole. |
https://iogames.onl/ |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8030 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2025 : 13:29:13
|
I can think of four examples from Realmslore which involve somehow manipulating a soul. Somehow anchoring it in place, preventing it from drifting away to an eternal afterlife somewhere on other planes.
The first is reincarnation magics. Traditionally the domain of druids although clerics and priests of many types can also have access to the spell. So can certain wizards, although their version is slightly different.
The second is the magic jar spell or magical items/things which involve it. Stuff like a lich's phylactery or the infamous Donjon card found in a Deck of Many Things.
The third is possibly a variation of the second. Dragonbait and Alias. They share a soul, more specifically one was formed from a piece of the other. Dark magics and rituals were involved, along with the direct intervention of a dark god, although they may or may not have functionally just being a variant of reincarnation.
Finally, there are Shades and Shadovar. Details are vague but it seems like they've somehow given or merged part of their soul to the Shadowfell, and perhaps the "void" within them was then replaced by shadowstuff. They aren't truly alive anymore, their souls are likely removed from the usual cycle of things and forced to endure near immortality before fading forever into shadows. Again this is possibly a variation of the magic jar theme, holding or anchoring a soul (or part of a soul) within a physical or metaphysical vessel.
I'm sure WotC doesn't want to anger religious or philosophical folks with heavyhanded attempts to define the indefinable, as they have done before. And I'm sure Wizbro doesn't want to step on the toes of authors who came before or limit the paths of authors who will follow next, sometimes leaving things rhetorical and mysterious is the best way because nothing you can put to paper will ever exceed what readers can put to their imaginations.
And I'm sure none of The Powers That Be want to actually answer questions about what happens when Manshoon dies. That's like putting stats onto an unkillable creature, it just encourages players to accomplish the deed. Manshoon is always a brand-name moneymaker in WotC's back pocket so they're incentivized to keep him far away from any kind of eternal rest. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Athreeren
Learned Scribe
190 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2025 : 15:49:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by tomholland
I’ve always interpreted Manshoon’s situation as a kind of magical paradox. Each clone is a true duplicate—not just of body, but of soul essence at the moment of creation. So in a way, they’re all fragments of the same spiritual whole.
It's cute when bots are talking of soul essence. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
On the topic of death and the afterlife
