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Demzer
Senior Scribe
883 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Aug 2025 : 14:56:00
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I tried not to get into this argument again because in the end we just run around in circles.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
... because it does something that no other being in D&D can do. It does something no pantheon, power, god, deity, celestial, fiend, or proxy can do.
But this is just not true.
Plenty of things in D&D can trap, destroy or warp the souls of mortals with no going back (except plot armour or DM fiat). Demiliches devour souls, and that's the end. Devils, demons, yugoloths and their lot, they all torture souls until they are not recognizable anymore and then build up effed up evil outsiders from them. Some form of undeath make souls completely unfit for a "normal" afterlife. Souls could even be trapped for eternity by mortal spellcasters on a whim. And that's without getting into higher powers shenanigans (which are most of the time just plot devices and comparable to DM fiat).
The other point that people are forgetting is that in Faerun a deity is her portfolio and her portfolio is the deity. You don't see nature collapsing or rivers drying up because Chauntea and Eldath are too smart to get offed every 5 seconds like Mystr*. But in the offchance it happened, the consequences would be catastrophic, without a suitable replacement ready. This means that "refusing the gods" for real would mean not interacting with the world at all. Because every wave of the sea is Umberlee, every storm is Talos, every rock is Grumbar, every gust of wind is Akadi, every glint of the morning light is Lathander, and so on.
There is a surprisingly insightful passage about this I think in one book of the post-ToT serie (pardon my faulty memory here) when the protagonists go to a monastery of Cyricists during the spat between Cyric and the rest of the pantheon and the monks of the monastery are being actively denied the action of all other mayor gods. They have no magic, they cannot die, they can't grow food, can't appreciate the beauty of anything, can't stand the sun, and so on.
While I admire the sense of justice that drives some against the idea of the Wall of the Faithless, I must say that these discussions drive home just how much people cannot let go of their own worldviews even when immersing themselves into a fictional world. Which is not bad if your table is all on the same page (the most important thing for any D&D campaign) but is hardly something that applies in general to the whole population of people appreciating the Forgotten Realms. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6430 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
883 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2025 : 13:57:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
snip
I would have to doublecheck all instances you cite but going from memory in all of those cases there were other deities taking up the spot almost immediately. All the strife between regional pantheons that produced the final Faerunian pantheon was deities expanding their territories, so to speak, and taking up the mantle and duties of other deities.
For the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons, even if you check the original Old Empires you see that the two pantheons merged with deities from one side taking up an alias and filling the gap of their equivalent in the other pantheon when they disappeared. If I'm not mistaken, there was also something about an eclipse when Re was killed? And Horus was there to take on the mantle immediately.
So yeah, of course when you get to divine things everythings is muddy, but we can still see the patterns, I think.
EDIT: or maybe I just dislike special snowflake Mystr* and don't want her to be that unique, who knows |
Edited by - Demzer on 26 Aug 2025 13:59:16 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6430 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2025 : 14:49:10
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Nobody likes the mary sue's, but she is unique because she is the only god that can essentially inhabit the material plane on a permanent basis.
Gods inhabit the outer planes because they need souls and belief which travels to them via the ethereal or astral (i forget which), but also because their divine realm essentially makes them indestructible - a massive geographic / planar location filled with loyal servants that the deity completely controls and can submerge themselves into so the entire realm has to be destroyed to kill the deity.
But Mystra can merge with the Weave in the same way as a deity merges with their divine realm. The weave funnels all the power of magic to her and it covers pretty much the entire planet, with multiple anchors to protect it from destruction. Thus in theory Mystra should be entirely safe while merged with it, and she can do anything other gods can do while they are on the outer planes (she can send spells to her worshippers, manifest miracles, etc).
She is special and different because she actually is special and different.
I will have to look up the eclipse thing for Ra's death, that could prove problematic. The deaths and mergers of gods and other pantheons was not immediate in any of the instances that i'm aware of (the Netherese, Illuskan, and Calishite / Jhaamdath pantheon mergers took centuries.
More importantly regional pantheons, if the gods were literally their portfolios and said portfolios had power and control over existence, would end up causing localised problems with the destruction of certain gods. How would one explain an eclipse occuring only in Mulhorand / Unther?
It makes far more sense if (following Ed's advice) the portfolios represent a mission statement for the clergy. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4227 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2025 : 15:13:56
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| Local pantheons have control over local things. An eclipse can happen in one area because "god magic" and not in other areas. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6430 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4227 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2025 : 22:12:30
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Why can't there be an eclipse in just one area?
What rules of divine magic say that?
Imagination rules games...not laws of physics from our world.
Yes, the Sun can be eclipsed for just one dang town if magic is afoot.
When the "nature of divinity" in a fantasy setting is at play, then I imagine an entire area of their divine influence can be eclipsed.
It is a fantasy game...not a "Rules of Physics/Natural Universe" game. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 26 Aug 2025 22:15:15 |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
92 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2025 : 22:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
EDIT: or maybe I just dislike special snowflake Mystr* and don't want her to be that unique, who knows
Do you want Spellplagues? 'Cause that's how you get Spellplagues. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
238 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2025 : 23:17:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Why can't there be an eclipse in just one area?
What rules of divine magic say that?
Imagination rules games...not laws of physics from our world.
Yes, the Sun can be eclipsed for just one dang town if magic is afoot.
When the "nature of divinity" in a fantasy setting is at play, then I imagine an entire area of their divine influence can be eclipsed.
It is a fantasy game...not a "Rules of Physics/Natural Universe" game.
Indeed. This seems like Fantasy 101 to me. |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
177 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2025 : 07:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Why can't there be an eclipse in just one area?
What rules of divine magic say that?
Imagination rules games...not laws of physics from our world.
Yes, the Sun can be eclipsed for just one dang town if magic is afoot.
When the "nature of divinity" in a fantasy setting is at play, then I imagine an entire area of their divine influence can be eclipsed.
It is a fantasy game...not a "Rules of Physics/Natural Universe" game.
From the Shadowdale novel: "However, the thief soon noticed a wealth of heat soaking his neck. He turned, and found a second sunrise that mimicked the first to total perfection. Off to the north and the south, other suns were rising with visible speed. Illusions or no, the effects were disconcerting. The sweltering heat from the blinding orbs caused the tiny pockets of mud in the road to dry and harden, and the earth itself began to smoke with a foul odor"
Later: "At times the sun appeared to be in the wrong position"
It could be wild magic causing an illusion (nobody is casting it anyway), but the novel is clearly presenting this as Lathander not being able to control the sun's cycle, so it simply decides to appear at different phases at once.
Similarly, at the end of the trilogy, Midnight's ascension prompts new stars to appear in the sky to represent her symbol. Then in the second book of the Cloakmaster series, space travellers remark upon how the Time of Troubles has prompted new stars to appear in Realmspace (as in, those are not lights in the sky but actual pathways through the phlogiston). Astronomy is simply more chaotic than in our world: the stars sometimes do weird things, especially if the gods are not there to make them behave. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1370 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2025 : 08:30:44
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| Amaunator's priests could "borrow" sunlight from one area. It is magic. Do not invest more thought than is necessary. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12153 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2025 : 13:08:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
By that I mean... picture it like a government where the "supreme court" is a council of greater powers. At one point, this council of greater powers convened, were asked by Myrkul if he could take the souls of the faithless and make a wall of punishment. Maybe he paraded a bunch of Imaskari souls in front of these greater powers, and they judged "yeah, that seems a good deterrent and justified for what those guys have done to us" (which again, not saying that's good). So, time passes and that council of greater powers changes to new people. The rulings of their predecessors are now precedent and Ao "has them recorded" as such. If the current lord of the dead wants to maintain the wall, would Ao even allow the council of greater powers to convene and override the prior ruling? At some point, it may become that they can't "undo" the ruling, and making it occur without becoming the lord of the dead themselves won't allow it to be taken down.
The thing with this theory is that in no official source Ao has said something about the Wall of the Faithless. Even in 3e,the Wall was there because Kelemvor wanted it to be there, not because Ao enforced it.
So, Ao has never "not allowed the gods to do something about". The gods just don't want to do something about it by themselves. It was Oghma who stopped Torm when he was complaining about it in Crucible, not Ao.
Well, we don't get crap about what Ao's role is. From the description of Ao however, he is acting as something LIKE a counterpoint to "hold the gods to their jobs". If there's a "council of greater powers" that passes judgments, it would seem that when they make a judgment, it becomes something like a precedent. I can see Ao as the kind that might not want them backing out on these precedents lightly (i.e. you make a judgment, you make sure its right... because you and the mortals under you are living with it until you convince me why I should let you back out on it).
Now, I can totally get someone saying "that's not how the gods work", because we don't have jack on how their mechanics work, but at least this concept works towards some kind of mechanics. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12153 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2025 : 13:17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
The worst thing about the Wall of the Faithless is seeing people trying to give it some sort of "noble goal" like this one to try to make it seem like a good thing. No, you don't need to justify cruelty, evil can be its own justification if you are an evil god trying to do evil deeds. And a god that prefers the eternal damnation of even a single soul just because they are afraid of someone else is not good by any standard.
I personally see the Wall as a cruelty - and an unacceptable, unfair, unjust one - because it does something that no other being in D&D can do. It does something no pantheon, power, god, deity, celestial, fiend, or proxy can do.
It entirely disregards the religion, faith, belief of the soul. It entirely disregards the thoughts and choices made by that soul. It entirely disregards the alignment and deeds of that soul.
Even the Lords of the Nine Hells, the hungry hags of Hades, and the screaming hordes of the Infinite Abyss cannot claim a soul which absolutely refuses to submit. Certainly they can rend the flesh and inflict unimaginable cruelties which would torture a soul, and they can creatively draw these unimaginably fiendish tortures out for a very long time. But they cannot impose an eternity of such suffering on a soul which does not truly deserve or accept this ultimate fate.
What's the point of even having Faith and divinity and religion and an eternal afterlife in D&D at all if things exist in D&D which entirely ignore and circumvent it all?
A noble paladin and paragon of Tyr? Doesn't matter.
A feared and powerful tyrant of Bane? Doesn't matter.
A peaceful, compassionate, empathic lover of Sune? Doesn't matter.
A senseless and destructive blaster of Talos? Doesn't matter.
A unbeliever who consciously refuses to worship these cruel and petty gods? Prepare for half an eternity of cruel suffering followed by ultimate destruction of your immortal essence. Such a crime is unforgivable to the gods, even if they haven't done anything to earn and deserve the faith you might have otherwise chosen to offer them.
Actually, this isn't necessarily true. We have references to demons and devils essentially making raids on unclaimed souls that they then turn into lesser demons and devils.... and for the ones that they can't seem to alter, they may trade them to a night hag who turns them essentially into fuel against the person's will.
So, it almost seems like the gods need to claim the souls of their followers or else the poor follower may end up somewhere unintended. Of course, they don't TELL their followers this, and they let them believe "if you follow my path, you'll come to my place in the afterlife". This also lessens the amount of controls that gods actually have.
In some ways even, having priests be able to return people from the dead may in fact be a form of snatching the dead before the gods have claimed it. The more powerful resurrections may actually be more powerful because they're able to actually work with the gods themelves to request a soul that HAS been claimed.
Certainly not where I saw this topic going, but not a bad discussion to have. From a story standpoint, making it that unclaimed souls are still fraught with perils until they can "journey to their gods home" makes for a good storyline. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12153 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2025 : 13:26:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I tried not to get into this argument again because in the end we just run around in circles.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
... because it does something that no other being in D&D can do. It does something no pantheon, power, god, deity, celestial, fiend, or proxy can do.
But this is just not true.
Plenty of things in D&D can trap, destroy or warp the souls of mortals with no going back (except plot armour or DM fiat). Demiliches devour souls, and that's the end. Devils, demons, yugoloths and their lot, they all torture souls until they are not recognizable anymore and then build up effed up evil outsiders from them. Some form of undeath make souls completely unfit for a "normal" afterlife. Souls could even be trapped for eternity by mortal spellcasters on a whim. And that's without getting into higher powers shenanigans (which are most of the time just plot devices and comparable to DM fiat).
The other point that people are forgetting is that in Faerun a deity is her portfolio and her portfolio is the deity. You don't see nature collapsing or rivers drying up because Chauntea and Eldath are too smart to get offed every 5 seconds like Mystr*. But in the offchance it happened, the consequences would be catastrophic, without a suitable replacement ready. This means that "refusing the gods" for real would mean not interacting with the world at all. Because every wave of the sea is Umberlee, every storm is Talos, every rock is Grumbar, every gust of wind is Akadi, every glint of the morning light is Lathander, and so on.
There is a surprisingly insightful passage about this I think in one book of the post-ToT serie (pardon my faulty memory here) when the protagonists go to a monastery of Cyricists during the spat between Cyric and the rest of the pantheon and the monks of the monastery are being actively denied the action of all other mayor gods. They have no magic, they cannot die, they can't grow food, can't appreciate the beauty of anything, can't stand the sun, and so on.
While I admire the sense of justice that drives some against the idea of the Wall of the Faithless, I must say that these discussions drive home just how much people cannot let go of their own worldviews even when immersing themselves into a fictional world. Which is not bad if your table is all on the same page (the most important thing for any D&D campaign) but is hardly something that applies in general to the whole population of people appreciating the Forgotten Realms.
Appreciate this response, and I agree that I myself do have some issues with some of the things you reference (i.e. I try to build something like "rules" for the gods). Its always as you point out... the gods of various aspects of nature, elements, etc... instead of ideas, ethics, morality, etc... that draw a line. This is why I liked the concept they started discussing in 4e of "primal powers" versus "gods" and versus "Archfey" / Primordials / fiendish & celestial powers, etc... then "the old ones" as being powers from an alien far realm. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12153 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2025 : 14:00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
snip
I would have to doublecheck all instances you cite but going from memory in all of those cases there were other deities taking up the spot almost immediately. All the strife between regional pantheons that produced the final Faerunian pantheon was deities expanding their territories, so to speak, and taking up the mantle and duties of other deities.
For the Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons, even if you check the original Old Empires you see that the two pantheons merged with deities from one side taking up an alias and filling the gap of their equivalent in the other pantheon when they disappeared. If I'm not mistaken, there was also something about an eclipse when Re was killed? And Horus was there to take on the mantle immediately.
So yeah, of course when you get to divine things everythings is muddy, but we can still see the patterns, I think.
EDIT: or maybe I just dislike special snowflake Mystr* and don't want her to be that unique, who knows
Yes, when Re (and POSSIBLY another sun god UTU .. since we don't have exact dates, where, how, who, etc...) died there WAS an eclipse of the sun.
This somewhat leads back to a discussion I've had in the past about the Mulan gods with the idea that they may have been a lot more prolific with trying to establish secondary aspects of themselves throughout the realms by possibly joining, subsuming, killing, or SOMETHING ELSE with other gods. It may have been that they did SOME of this via their offspring as well (i.e. the incarnations of the gods). So, by that I mean that Jergal may have come about via Nergal's offspring interacting with a spellweaver god of the dead... Amaunator may have come about by one of Re's offspring interacting with the goddess At'ar (so a name like Amon-Re + At'ar becomes Amaunator)... the offspring of Anshar bonding with a power of darkness to become the embodiment that is Shar (so Shar is an aspect of an earlier part of herself and ever changing and ever being destroyed herself).... the offspring of Dahak possibly become Null, etc... and other deities of the pantheon fleeing to become deities not under the control of the Mulan gods (i.e. the idea of the Untheric version of Ishtar becoming Eldath, Bast "fleeing" the pantheon to a degree, Assuran being forced out to become Hoar, etc..)
I somewhat wonder if there isn't even MORE of a story revolving around these gods and the rise of Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal... and possible ties of Bane to Gilgeam, Myrkul as a possible incarnation of Set, and Bhaal as a godly offpsring as well (especially given the stories of Bhaalspawn).
Just for aiding this discussion, providing the relevant definition of an incarnation from Old Empires, because sometimes it helps
Another important concept is that of an incarnation. The incarnation is a mortal form of a deity. An incarnation is very powerful, equal to a high-level character, occasionally possessing minor divine powers, but still capable of being slain (Tholaunt, an incarnation of Anhur, was slain 30 years ago by Valerios of Pyardos, one of the Tharchions of Thay). Incarnations compose most of a pharaoh's royal family, but the eldest is always an incarnation of Horus-Re.
An incarnation has the general temperament
of a manifestation, but it is not
under the direct control of the deity
and can be affected by mortal weaknesses
and foibles. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12153 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2025 : 14:02:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
That makes as much sense as flat earth.
Toril has one sun, it is eclipsed by its moon and other planets (and occasionally massive star beasts). You cannot suddenly have it eclipsed only within the confines of Unther and Mulhorand.
But regardless, gods are not their portfolios (according to Ed)
Sure it can... something fairly local blocking it... an illusion as well... hell, a "dome" that blocks light as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
883 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2025 : 14:38:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Nobody likes the mary sue's, but she is unique because she is the only god that can essentially inhabit the material plane on a permanent basis.
I'll wait here while you go and tell Chauntea that ...
Also, even on our own Earth eclipses are never total on most of it (there are paths, you can look it up on the web). So even physics, if you want to get that into the discussion, allows for more localised eclipsing phenomena.
And if you want to go full fantasy, maybe for that eclipse it was not Selune getting in the way but Gruumsh or some orcish thingamajig.
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
Do you want Spellplagues? 'Cause that's how you get Spellplagues.
Actually, without Mystr* being a special snowflake Faerunians would not have all these problems everytime she faceplanted.
Anyway, it's my third post so time to get back on topic.
Regarding the Wall of the Faithless, given the way belief works on Toril, I think it is basically unused most of the time in modern history outside the catastrophes. In the past Faerun had empires openly defying gods with all their might and that's what makes the Wall of the Faithless stand.
In the 1300s DR there might have been a resurgence of new bricks given the fact that the gods effed up big time and people might have taken it personally (and this would be a real injustice that would need looking into). I don't think the Spellplague caused too many changes over there because the involvment of gods (as in, deities in general) was quite lessere than previous catastrophes and people were just angry at Cyricists and maybe Sharrans.
Another shipment of bricks could've come after the Second Sundering with people from Abeir and servants of the Primordials stranded on Toril and judged harshly (maybe too harshly).
I think it is important also to look at the different gods of death and how they used and handled their powers and portfolios.
It's clear Jergal was above any type of concern of mortals disregarding his authority and was very creative in his punishments (look at the Cult of Jathiman) but he didn't feel the need to permanently punish souls (also because souls are more useful than bricks).
Myrkul on the other hand was a mortal and was way more bitter and sadistic. So that one of the first thing he did was to permanently destroy the souls of all those that shared his view of godhood (simplifying, "just a glorified spellcaster, anyone can get there") to remove the chance of dangerous rivals from suddenly coming back and go to town on his newly deified self.
Just think about all those souls of uber Netheres arcanists and Imaskari artificers simply hanging out in the Astral/Ethereal and trading knwoledge with no real reason (but maybe some contingencies already placed) to go back to life and then suddenly a rather obscure fellow of them (and a warlord! and a thief!) become gods ... and then before they get the chance to do anything BAM Wall of the Faithless, no chance of endangering the upstarts anymore.
As to why Kelemvor didn't do anything well, I think he is clearly one of those cases of someone being unfit for their duty, he is a bad god of death, at least he is not sadistic but he clearly didn't know what he was doing in the late 1300s. Maybe he got better with a century of practice but I bet Jergal was running the show behind the curtains. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12153 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2025 : 19:09:11
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good extra fit of Myrkul being like "yeah, I need to punish these Imaskari.... because they may overthrow ME just like I did". So, it may not have been "yeah, I really hate these Imaskari", so much as "these guys can be a threat". Especially since they had done things like putting up a "Godswall" in the past. Who says they couldn't wall a god within their own divine domain (just like what supposedly happened to Cyric after the spellplague). I think in this discussion we're really starting to get into the "mind" of Myrkul a little.
And on Kelemvor, yeah, I'd very much think he's not prepared for godhood in the beginning. I actually felt that in many ways he "resembled" Osiris.... even to the point of being a werepanther, where "cats were often associated to Osiris as guardians of the Underworld" and were often mummified and buried with the dead. Which of course COULD lead back to the ideas I was talking about above of possibilities of the Mulan gods manipulating mortals with possible descents from them into helping them ascend in other pantheons. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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GUESSING Reason for the wall of the faithless
