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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Apr 2024 : 09:32:41
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There was evidence of early research on using steam as propellant:
quote:
Once when I was in the area, I heard shouts and calls coming from near the geyser, a commotion more in keeping with masons building a temple wall. Keeping hidden, I crept over the ridge to find a circle of men - mages, surely - standing around the vent. A large flat rock floated near the hole. They magically maneuvered the rock, which was just about the length of two men, directly over the hole. Then it was dropped into place. I found this behavior more than unusual, and wondered what their intentions were in conducting this experiment.
I made myself comfortable by taking the shape of a toad. I squeezed into a rocky crack and waited for the spectacle. The men, all dressed in similar blue-green robes, conferred for a time, and then they too sat back to wait.
I assume the geyser went off at its appointed time, although nothing happened to the rock. It didn't move an iota.
The men looked pleased with themselves and I was even more perplexed than I had been earlier. The men showed no signs of departing; if anything, they watched the stone even more intently. I decided to stay put for as long as the blue-robed mages did.
Although I was prepared for a week-long wait, we didn't wait nearly that long. Only an hour passed before a high-pitched hissing gradually became noticeable, then increasingly louder. All of the men glued their eyes to the rock. It started to move upward, riding a column of hissing steam. One of the men clapped ecstatically before the leader shushed him with a swift motion. When the rock reached a certain height, the head mage pointed at one of the men, who had been silently preparing a spell.
When he waved his hands, the rock shot off the geyser with the speed of an eagle.
Jubilation reigned. They jumped in the air and even the leader was clapping his hands. I returned to my own form, and walked across the rocks toward the joyous group.
"I couldn't help but hear all the commotion. Is there anything I can help you with? I saw a huge rock go flying overhead, and wondered whether I had a mage fight on my hands."
"No fighting going on here - just a successful experiment," replied the leader, smiling.
"My name is Tharnn Greenwinter," I said, introducing myself to the entire group. "I happened to be passing by. I don't mean to be nosy but I'm curious... What did you accomplish here today?"
The leader's smile widened. "I've always thought there must be a way to devise a catapult without using pulleys, levers, and all those other cumbersome, mundane things. I got the idea to somehow use steam and a feather fall spell together, but I never could find a sufficiently strong, concentrated eruption of steam to suit my purpose. At least, not until today. All those hours, days of research have paid off: I've shown it can be done! Wait until they hear about this back in Shadowdale!
"Now, we just have to find a way to create steam of such intensity as this geyser and make it portable," said the leader.
- Elminster's Ecologies Appendix One: The Hill of Lost Souls
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2024 : 04:07:08
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As far as cannon sources go, there are mentions of very steam-punk or magi-tech machines operating in Mulhorand that have been in operation for nearly a millennia. These were built at a time when Mulhorand was on the rise and before the Orcgate Wars and the revolt of Thayd which caused the Mulhorandi to stop expanding their technological and magical powers.
Given all this information we have about the level of technology that the Old Empires once wielded and now have mostly abandoned, we can even start to look at them as something akin to the great houses in the Dune universe where in many ways they are backwards compared to the rest of Faerun yet in other ways they are actually far, far more advanced.
It would make sense for the Old Empires to have had "early access" to smokepowder arriving from Kara-Tur via various end points of the Golden Way into the eastern reaches of the Sea of Fallen Stars. We know that they at least knew (or at the minimum the deific manifestations knew) of spelljamming techniques as that was the method used to arrive to Toril. Likewise, the Thayans are Mulan and they have their own indigenous firearms that function completely differently from standard ones as well as building the extraplanar powered ironclad sidewheeler described in the 2E Spellbound boxed set. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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Ltlconf
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2025 : 16:46:22
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Gonna throw my oar in. I've no issue with black powder weapons being in the Realms, or not. Got a degree in European history, but certainly no PhD, but I did reenacting fora few decades, including the 17th, 18th, and 19th century Colonial US, thus post Medieval but these are the firearms we're talking about. I did do HEMA too, but that's irrelevant, though I did get to.play with a friend's 1000ib steel prod crossbow. It was glorious! Anyway...
Making a muzzleloader, especially a matchlock, is incredibly easy to master. EVERYWHERE these weapons were introduced, so long as the locals had decent steel making capacity, they quickly mastered the technology and guns spread like WILDFIRE. In Japan two matchlocks showed up on a small island off southern Kyushu in 1543, and in 1575 (just 30 years later) you had 3000 being used in the Battle of Nagashino...by only one side. The other side had just as many. They just didn't use them as well.
You saw similar rapid adoption in India, China, the Middle East, North Africa, The Caucasus, Southeast Asia....
Why? Because a matchlock only needs a mild steel smoothbore barrel, a sealed breach with a hole to the base of it, a pan with simple hinged cover at the other end of that hole (hold the igniting powder), and a simple S-shaped "serpentine" to hold the match in a simple clamp on one end the user "pulls" to fire the weapon.
To fire the weapon the user needs to be able to simply stand, see lightning, hear thunder, and have the coordination and intelligence to know which end to stick in the powder, ball, to prime, and then point at the enemy when he pulls the serpentine. Best of all, he just has healthy enough to handle a seven pound gun, not pull, at MINIMUM, a 75ib pull longbow, or 12ib crossbow and 10ib windlass, and crank the thing repeatedly.
Now, a matchlock musket is heavier, and did take a stand, but those didn't last long as they were a pain. Not so much due to weight alone (about 10ibs), but due to length AND weight. They soon got down to 9ibs.
The snaphaunce soon came about because the wheellock is indeed a complex clockwork pain to make and overly delicate. Plus you need a key to wind it to fire, and you lose the key, you're boned. Each key is apparently unique to the weapon!
The snaphaunce, however, is very similar to the flintlock: it has a hammer with a clamp holding a flint hitting a steel frizzen face, but has a sliding cover over the pan that has a spring that slides it open when the trigger is pulled and the hammer comes down. The frizzen doesn't cover the pan
Still too complex for the average blacksmith, thus the weapon of officers and elite, as well as guards of the artillery and powder train.
Never seen a wheellock outside a museum, so never seen one work. But watch the Michael York "Three Musketeers", they use them in the movie.These things were apparently made by clockmakers with gun makers making the barrels, triggers, and hammers! Only the rich could afford them.
Now, flintlocks are first recorded in 1660, but flintlock style MECHANISMS are known to have existed as early as the 15th century. Effectively, think a flint-and-steel lighter but with a trigger and without the fuel reservoir.
So, flintlock guns could've been around a decade or two earlier. Best of all, blacksmiths can make them. Backwoods blacksmith on the American Appalachian frontier made RIFLED flintlock muskets easily.
As for that article with Elminster grumbling over that harbor crane? I remember rolling my eyes and grumbling right back, "they had construction and port drum cranes from ancient Rome on into the Middle Ages. How do you think they DID build all those castle towers, cathedrals, bridges, and load those massive multi-ton Roman grain ships?"
They had mechanical tower clocks from the 14th century, on.
Block printing in the 14th century.
Water powered paper mills to mass produce paper (rag paper made from linen rags) |
The Cracker |
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Ltlconf
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2025 : 16:52:10
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Gonna throw my oar in. I've no issue with black powder weapons being in the Realms, or not. Got a degree in European history, but certainly no PhD, but I did reenacting fora few decades, including the 17th, 18th, and 19th century Colonial US, thus post Medieval but these are the firearms we're talking about. I did do HEMA too, but that's irrelevant, though I did get to.play with a friend's 1000ib steel prod crossbow. It was glorious! Anyway...
Making a muzzleloader, especially a matchlock, is incredibly easy to master. EVERYWHERE these weapons were introduced, so long as the locals had decent steel making capacity, they quickly mastered the technology and guns spread like WILDFIRE. In Japan two matchlocks showed up on a small island off southern Kyushu in 1543, and in 1575 (just 30 years later) you had 3000 being used in the Battle of Nagashino...by only one side. The other side had just as many. They just didn't use them as well.
You saw similar rapid adoption in India, China, the Middle East, North Africa, The Caucasus, Southeast Asia....
Why? Because a matchlock only needs a mild steel smoothbore barrel, a sealed breach with a hole to the base of it, a pan with simple hinged cover at the other end of that hole (hold the igniting powder), and a simple S-shaped "serpentine" to hold the match in a simple clamp on one end the user "pulls" to fire the weapon.
To fire the weapon the user needs to be able to simply stand, see lightning, hear thunder, and have the coordination and intelligence to know which end to stick in the powder, ball, to prime, and then point at the enemy when he pulls the serpentine. Best of all, he just has healthy enough to handle a seven pound gun, not pull, at MINIMUM, a 75ib pull longbow, or 12ib crossbow and 10ib windlass, and crank the thing repeatedly.
Now, a matchlock musket is heavier, and did take a stand, but those didn't last long as they were a pain. Not so much due to weight alone (about 10ibs), but due to length AND weight. They soon got down to 9ibs.
The snaphaunce soon came about because the wheellock is indeed a complex clockwork pain to make and overly delicate. Plus you need a key to wind it to fire, and you lose the key, you're boned. Each key is apparently unique to the weapon!
The snaphaunce, however, is very similar to the flintlock: it has a hammer with a clamp holding a flint hitting a steel frizzen face, but has a sliding cover over the pan that has a spring that slides it open when the trigger is pulled and the hammer comes down. The frizzen doesn't cover the pan
Still too complex for the average blacksmith, thus the weapon of officers and elite, as well as guards of the artillery and powder train.
Never seen a wheellock outside a museum, so never seen one work. But watch the Michael York "Three Musketeers", they use them in the movie.These things were apparently made by clockmakers with gun makers making the barrels, triggers, and hammers! Only the rich could afford them.
Now, flintlocks are first recorded in 1660, but flintlock style MECHANISMS are known to have existed as early as the 15th century. Effectively, think a flint-and-steel lighter but with a trigger and without the fuel reservoir.
So, flintlock guns could've been around a decade or two earlier. Best of all, blacksmiths can make them. Backwoods blacksmith on the American Appalachian frontier made RIFLED flintlock muskets easily.
As for that article with Elminster grumbling over that harbor crane? I remember rolling my eyes and grumbling right back, "they had construction and port drum cranes from ancient Rome on into the Middle Ages. How do you think they DID build all those castle towers, cathedrals, bridges, and load those massive multi-ton Roman grain ships?"
They had mechanical tower clocks from the 14th century, on.
Block printing in the 14th century.
Water powered paper mills to mass produce paper (rag paper made from linen rags). And for alot of other things like rolling metal and crushing ore.
And so on...we severely underestimate the Medieval Western Europeans. |
The Cracker |
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Muskets in Faerun
