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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
 Posted - 22 May 2025 : 01:10:22
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Hello!
If Anauroch were bordered by mountains to the west, south and east (including the Desertsmouth peaks presently in existence), how might that affect the region? Trade routes would be hindered/obstructed, certainly; the Zhentarim might not be so eager to use its wastes as a means of bypassing more civilized regions (unless they knew of a secret path...). Fewer monsters would trickle into The Stonelands. What else?
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12067 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2025 : 02:15:29
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| Too many factors. Would people just use the Underdark or a tunnel through the mountains? Would these points become major cities because of their importance? Would people seek to control both sides (but if its Underdark passages, will there be multiple entrances/exits)? Would someone setup a skyship ferry service that just goes over the mountains? If that were the case is there a caravan service that stays IN the desert such that people travel to the skyship, sell their caravan wagons to people leaving the desert, and then buy a new set of wagons on the other side? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1044 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2025 : 11:10:33
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For skyship ferry services, I would expect Halruaans to charge steep fees for transport. They would not be eager to sell their trade secrets of skyship design. For Underdark routes and tunneling through mountains, that is inherently risky with the additional risk of freeing the phaerimm under Anauroch. The Zhentarim would likely not bother maintaining the Black Road with the expense and risk.
I would expect trade routes to go around the mountains. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12067 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2025 : 12:29:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
For skyship ferry services, I would expect Halruaans to charge steep fees for transport. They would not be eager to sell their trade secrets of skyship design. For Underdark routes and tunneling through mountains, that is inherently risky with the additional risk of freeing the phaerimm under Anauroch. The Zhentarim would likely not bother maintaining the Black Road with the expense and risk.
I would expect trade routes to go around the mountains.
To Note: Halruuans aren't the only ones who know how to make skyships. People think that way, but Thayans are in canon also makers of skyships. So are elves. Thayans also have their own model of spelljammers, as do the people of Kara-Tur. If a spelljammer were staying in atmosphere and looked "ship-like" and people saw it, they might think its just another model of "skyship". Now, I don't see the Thayans using their spelljammers for this (i.e. for other people), but I could see the Guild of Foreign Trade running a ferry service with skyships.... if only for the prestige of gaining similar notoriety to what the Halruuans can do. Once other nations see this in action, it wouldn't be too hard to design their own variation of Halruaan skyship (or go down to Halruaa and steal one and use it in secret with illusory cover for their own goods).
On the underdark and/or tunnels .... WE know about the Phaerimm, but most people don't. Yeah, is it more dangerous? Maybe. I think people would do tunnels before underdark though. That's easier, especially if you can get something that burrows or disintegrates things to help (forcibly or not). Hell, there's even the idea of short jump portal system or even something as simple as a very narrow but long series of passwall effects that can only be activated for say ten minutes a day (i.e just enough that a caravan could get lined up in a valley and just pass on through in a relative rush.... anything breaks down .... sucks to be you because your wagon is getting disintegrated).
Something like the passwall effect would mainly be for use by a highly secretive organization, because its annoying, unsafe, and probably more expensive than a portal system. However, there is security in it, especially if there's a couple sets of these with a stopover point each day where people could stay in some encampment, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12067 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2025 : 13:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
My long-running erroneous recollection: Anauroch is surrounded by mountains.
Far from impenetrable and there's breaks. From what I'm gathering, you were asking us to focus on the idea that "because of the mountains, people can't cross".... but even with that, we've already shown ways that people would get around it.
Things that in our world that would be exceptionally hard to do, become ridiculously easy if you put your mind to it in the realms. For instance, if you can get a beholder under your control (and possibly even remove all its eyes except the disintegrate one), you can quickly tunnel through mountains at a rate that would absolutely stun people in our world. Granted, you still have to shore it all up, etc.... So, speaking of using beholders to tunnel.... who do we know with beholder friends? Zhents. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 30 May 2025 13:10:58 |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1044 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2025 : 06:19:59
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I can envision Thayan's offering ferry services. Elves..maybe other elves. As far as other groups/nations designing their own sky ships, I am skeptical most nations have both the material resources and sheer arcane magical power (Thay, Halruua and Evermeet are all arcane powerhouses) to make fully operational sky ships to be deployed on demand.
Stealing a sky ship from Halruua, Thay or Evermeet is sure to invite swift and severe retribution...in the slim chance the heist is successful. Illusory cover will most likely fail with High Mages or the Council of Elders looking for stolen property. Zalathorm is one of Faerun's greatest diviners after all.
Even if most people do not know about the phaerimm, the general danger of the Underdark is common knowledge. I wholeheartedly agree tunnels closer to the surface are a more viable option. Using an enslaved beholder to disintegrate rocks is a genius idea. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12067 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2025 : 23:23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I can envision Thayan's offering ferry services. Elves..maybe other elves. As far as other groups/nations designing their own sky ships, I am skeptical most nations have both the material resources and sheer arcane magical power (Thay, Halruua and Evermeet are all arcane powerhouses) to make fully operational sky ships to be deployed on demand.
Stealing a sky ship from Halruua, Thay or Evermeet is sure to invite swift and severe retribution...in the slim chance the heist is successful. Illusory cover will most likely fail with High Mages or the Council of Elders looking for stolen property. Zalathorm is one of Faerun's greatest diviners after all.
Even if most people do not know about the phaerimm, the general danger of the Underdark is common knowledge. I wholeheartedly agree tunnels closer to the surface are a more viable option. Using an enslaved beholder to disintegrate rocks is a genius idea.
On the ships.... think of it this way .... Halruaa's sky ships are privately owned, but yes, a treasured resource. In our world could we see something similarly treasured getting stolen though, with someone tricking us into believing that it was destroyed, such that we don't go searching for it? Skyships are nice, but they can very easily be destroyed in reality (for instance, if a dragon attacked a sky ship, its highly believable that it could get destroyed). So, having a real dragon breathe illusory breath, etc... could possibly convince anyone scrying if the entirety of the crew were killed another way. The key being making it convincing enough that people don't delve it deeply. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36904 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2025 : 01:24:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I can envision Thayan's offering ferry services. Elves..maybe other elves. As far as other groups/nations designing their own sky ships, I am skeptical most nations have both the material resources and sheer arcane magical power (Thay, Halruua and Evermeet are all arcane powerhouses) to make fully operational sky ships to be deployed on demand.
Stealing a sky ship from Halruua, Thay or Evermeet is sure to invite swift and severe retribution...in the slim chance the heist is successful. Illusory cover will most likely fail with High Mages or the Council of Elders looking for stolen property. Zalathorm is one of Faerun's greatest diviners after all.
Even if most people do not know about the phaerimm, the general danger of the Underdark is common knowledge. I wholeheartedly agree tunnels closer to the surface are a more viable option. Using an enslaved beholder to disintegrate rocks is a genius idea.
On the ships.... think of it this way .... Halruaa's sky ships are privately owned, but yes, a treasured resource. In our world could we see something similarly treasured getting stolen though, with someone tricking us into believing that it was destroyed, such that we don't go searching for it? Skyships are nice, but they can very easily be destroyed in reality (for instance, if a dragon attacked a sky ship, its highly believable that it could get destroyed). So, having a real dragon breathe illusory breath, etc... could possibly convince anyone scrying if the entirety of the crew were killed another way. The key being making it convincing enough that people don't delve it deeply.
Slight issue: the owners of those skyships are high-level wizards. Anyone wanting to steal a skyship is going to need some way of neutralizing the powerful wizard that owns it. And even if the wizard is somehow left behind and convinced his ship was destroyed, he's still not going to sit back and just say "oh well" and let it go.
Second issue: the magic that hold skyships up has to be periodically renewed. And Halruaans are quite particular about making sure those spells stay in Halruaan hands. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12067 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2025 : 23:58:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I can envision Thayan's offering ferry services. Elves..maybe other elves. As far as other groups/nations designing their own sky ships, I am skeptical most nations have both the material resources and sheer arcane magical power (Thay, Halruua and Evermeet are all arcane powerhouses) to make fully operational sky ships to be deployed on demand.
Stealing a sky ship from Halruua, Thay or Evermeet is sure to invite swift and severe retribution...in the slim chance the heist is successful. Illusory cover will most likely fail with High Mages or the Council of Elders looking for stolen property. Zalathorm is one of Faerun's greatest diviners after all.
Even if most people do not know about the phaerimm, the general danger of the Underdark is common knowledge. I wholeheartedly agree tunnels closer to the surface are a more viable option. Using an enslaved beholder to disintegrate rocks is a genius idea.
On the ships.... think of it this way .... Halruaa's sky ships are privately owned, but yes, a treasured resource. In our world could we see something similarly treasured getting stolen though, with someone tricking us into believing that it was destroyed, such that we don't go searching for it? Skyships are nice, but they can very easily be destroyed in reality (for instance, if a dragon attacked a sky ship, its highly believable that it could get destroyed). So, having a real dragon breathe illusory breath, etc... could possibly convince anyone scrying if the entirety of the crew were killed another way. The key being making it convincing enough that people don't delve it deeply.
Slight issue: the owners of those skyships are high-level wizards. Anyone wanting to steal a skyship is going to need some way of neutralizing the powerful wizard that owns it. And even if the wizard is somehow left behind and convinced his ship was destroyed, he's still not going to sit back and just say "oh well" and let it go.
Second issue: the magic that hold skyships up has to be periodically renewed. And Halruaans are quite particular about making sure those spells stay in Halruaan hands.
Yes, but they aren't the only high level wizards in the world. My point is its doable, not some impossible task. On the renewal front, that mainly revolves around gaining the information, which is known to the red wizards as well. Whose to say that an enterprising member of the Guild of Foreign Trade might not negotiate to renew a sky skip periodically all in the service of trade (as in, hmmmm, you're running a caravan over the mountains.... why not let us in on whatever is crossing the desert for trade, and in return I'll renew your skyship). I mean... the spells to renew a skyship weren't amaxing, it was like levitate and suspension. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1044 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2025 : 07:23:26
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Sleyvas,
The problem is not Thayans selling their services. The problem is the reward of 1. stealing a sky ship or 2. the knowledge to make and maintain a sky ship is not remotely worth the risk. Doable does not mean reasonable. The spells needed to maintain a sky ship do not need to be amazing in the slightest. They are trade secrets as sensitive as any nation's military intelligence.
In your example, a Thayan would insist on controlling the ship while it was in active operation. At all times. The Thayan is not going to just cast spells for a fee and let the customer take off with the ship. Halruua and Evermeet aren't selling their services at all. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12067 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2025 : 01:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Sleyvas,
The problem is not Thayans selling their services. The problem is the reward of 1. stealing a sky ship or 2. the knowledge to make and maintain a sky ship is not remotely worth the risk. Doable does not mean reasonable. The spells needed to maintain a sky ship do not need to be amazing in the slightest. They are trade secrets as sensitive as any nation's military intelligence.
In your example, a Thayan would insist on controlling the ship while it was in active operation. At all times. The Thayan is not going to just cast spells for a fee and let the customer take off with the ship. Halruua and Evermeet aren't selling their services at all.
That's where we'll see things differently. I can definitely see a Thayan willing to sell services, especially one from the guild of foreign trade, in maintaining a stolen Halruaan vessel. If its all clandestine, and it enables their purpose of enriching themselves with trade for the minor service of casting some levitate or suspension spells (note, I said trade... not a fee... I'm picturing one who sees the advantages of using the ship to transport goods, without the HASSLE of having to do the transport and protection of said goods... best of both worlds). Not every Thayan is a psychopath or a militant even. Some are just greedy. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36904 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2025 : 02:20:40
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Where does it say the Thayans know the secret of Halruaan skyships?
Also, Thay has its own spelljammers... Why bother with a slow and cumbersome stolen Halruaan ship when they have their own faster native ships? Even if you wanted to limit the use of Quads, it's not unreasonable to assume that the Quad was the most successful in a series of experimental ships, and that something cheaper than a Quad but still superior to a Halruaan skyship could be done.
For that matter, a simple minor helm slapped on a galleon would be better than a Halruaan skyship. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2025 : 03:14:34
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| I was surprised to learn that Evereska - the mainland elven refuge - abuts a desert; now that's a contrast. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12067 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2025 : 13:53:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where does it say the Thayans know the secret of Halruaan skyships?
Also, Thay has its own spelljammers... Why bother with a slow and cumbersome stolen Halruaan ship when they have their own faster native ships? Even if you wanted to limit the use of Quads, it's not unreasonable to assume that the Quad was the most successful in a series of experimental ships, and that something cheaper than a Quad but still superior to a Halruaan skyship could be done.
For that matter, a simple minor helm slapped on a galleon would be better than a Halruaan skyship.
THIS is where "canon lore" needs to have some coaxing.
My take on quads (non-canon) is that even a lot of the zulkirs don't know they exist AND that they are a recent development. They were developed recently, under the direction Mythrell'aa and the upper echelon of the guild of foreign trade. Only a few were developed due to the huge cost, and they were a hidden means that even most heads of the various enclaves didn't understand. Mythrell'aa was using the Netherese city of Doubloon, floating in Orbit, and renamed as the city of Luneira as a trade way station in coordination with the guild of foreign trade. They would drop off goods at certain drop points and direct enclave leaders to go get them.
On them knowing about skyships, the original shining south mentions them claiming to have developed them (which implies they also have them). They don't specifically call them out as in use anywhere though, so I'd definitely go with "some folks know enough to possibly make one". Given that the Thayan rebellion was started with aid from renegade Halruaans, it does make sense that Thay would have access to this knowledge.... again, possibly not wide spread.
This returns back to the concept that there are all these "secrets that noone else knows" in the realms... and yet there's always contradictions to it. Noone else knows the secret to "read southern magic" used by the Mulan people.... but the Halruaans do. Circle magic was originally supposedly a secret just to Thay... but now Rashemi AND Halruaans also know it. There are secrets, but they are not always well kept. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36904 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2025 : 22:36:20
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The Doubloon idea, I like...
I'll not further object to your other points... But with an established presence in space, I still fail to see why Thay would bother with a Halruaan skyship when even a simple galleon with a minor helm is better in every way. |
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"What if?": Anauroch surrounded by mountains?
