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Originally posted by Azar

Long time no see, everyone.

I am considering running an extended Dalelands campaign*; it would be a gestalt of "Grey Box" and "Gold Box" material (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Second Edition, respectively). My goal is to get back to basics by opting for an open-ended journey that is a bit slower-paced and provincial...nothing "cosmopolitan" or "end of the world". While I think I've gotten the essentials worked out, there is a sticking point that I wish to discuss. In addition to the usual potential complaints/misconceptions about The Realms (which I more-or-less addressed), a different sort of consideration has been brewing: there may not be a believable amount of empty space(s) to feature monster encounters without the player characters bumping into Joe Farmhand out for a stroll.

There is this notion that the area (both broadly and any Dale in particular) is too small and too tamed. Remember that I am abiding by the earliest officially-published version of Forgotten Realms and its greater emphasis on the frontier; even taking that into account, there is doubt. I am sad to say that both cartography and population interactions aren't my strong suits as a Dungeon Master; usually, I've gotten around this by setting the fiercest conflicts way out in the middle of nowhere. However, this time, the ability to resupply - even infrequently - is desirable.

Is the region "cramped" or am I fussing over nothing? Should any of you know a great deal about both scale and population density pertaining to cross-country wandering, please share your experiences here so that I can allay this concern. Encounter distances, viewing distances (i.e., being comfortably out of sight from the nearest human-built structure) and travel times (chiefly on foot) are all on my mind. If I can conceptualize, say, the difficulty in hiking one mile through Daggerdale versus hiking one mile in Archendale's gorge, then I'll feel much more confident.

*Without immediately resorting to a romp through Cormanthor .

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Originally posted by EltonRobb

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Originally posted by Azar

Long time no see, everyone.

I am considering running an extended Dalelands campaign*; it would be a gestalt of "Grey Box" and "Gold Box" material (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Second Edition, respectively). My goal is to get back to basics by opting for an open-ended journey that is a bit slower-paced and provincial...nothing "cosmopolitan" or "end of the world". While I think I've gotten the essentials worked out, there is a sticking point that I wish to discuss. In addition to the usual potential complaints/misconceptions about The Realms (which I more-or-less addressed), a different sort of consideration has been brewing: there may not be a believable amount of empty space(s) to feature monster encounters without the player characters bumping into Joe Farmhand out for a stroll.

There is this notion that the area (both broadly and any Dale in particular) is too small and too tamed. Remember that I am abiding by the earliest officially-published version of Forgotten Realms and its greater emphasis on the frontier; even taking that into account, there is doubt. I am sad to say that both cartography and population interactions aren't my strong suits as a Dungeon Master; usually, I've gotten around this by setting the fiercest conflicts way out in the middle of nowhere. However, this time, the ability to resupply - even infrequently - is desirable.

Is the region "cramped" or am I fussing over nothing? Should any of you know a great deal about both scale and population density pertaining to cross-country wandering, please share your experiences here so that I can allay this concern. Encounter distances, viewing distances (i.e., being comfortably out of sight from the nearest human-built structure) and travel times (chiefly on foot) are all on my mind. If I can conceptualize, say, the difficulty in hiking one mile through Daggerdale versus hiking one mile in Archendale's gorge, then I'll feel much more confident.

*Without immediately resorting to a romp through Cormanthor .

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You may benefit from FRS1 the Dalelands by Richard Baker III. It provides an overview of the Dales and talks about each one in depth (although the Shadowdale book from the Gold Box is very helpful for a campaign beginning in Shadowdale). I'm planning an extensive Dalelands campaign myself using the Zhentarim as an enemy organization ending with Manshoon prime as the end boss. That's why I bought FRS1 from Drivethru.

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Originally posted by EltonRobb

I think my campaign will turn out differently from yours, though.

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Originally posted by HighOne

You can get around this problem by (a) increasing the map scale by x2, x3, x4, etc. or (b) destroying a few Dales. Nothing says danger like, "Oh, that region was ravaged by ancient, fire-breathing dragons. It's just a smoking crater now."

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Originally posted by Werthead

Not sure who is calling the Dalelands too small. The Dalelands are enormous. The nearest equivalent to the Dalelands in real life is probably the Black Forest of Germany but the Dalelands are almost twice as large as all of modern Germany and obviously much more thinly populated.

In 1372 DR, the Dalelands had a combined population of 602,640. This includes the surface and Underdark. The population is divided between 80% human, 6% drow, 5% half-elves, 4% elves, 2% halflings, 1% dwarves and 1% misc.

The approximate territory of the Dalelands is 258,095 square miles (668,463 square kilometres), which is fairly substantial: the Dalelands cover almost three times as much territory as neighbouring Sembia and a fair bit more than twice as much territory as Cormyr, with a far lower population than either (Cormyr has 1.36 million people, Sembia 2.46 million). The population density is around 2.33 people per square mile or 0.9 people per square kilometre, which is pretty bare. This increases dramatically when you realise over a third of the Dalelands population is wedged into the southern-most part of the region, in Deepingdale, Archendale, Tasseldale, Featherdale and Scardale. The other Dales and the open forest are pretty sparsely-populated.

If a real-life country, the Dalelands would be more sparsely populated than any country on modern Earth bar only Greenland. It is larger than Somalia, France and Afghanistan, and smaller than Myanmar, Zambia and Chile. If it was a real country, the Dalelands would be the 40th largest in the world. If the territory was an American State, it would be larger than California and only slightly smaller than Texas. The longest continuous distance in the Dalelands territory is around 450 miles, maybe slightly more.

To summarise: the Dalelands are massive and very sparsely-populated between the very rare and infrequent population centres. I wouldn't worry too much about it being too cramped for interesting things to happen; if anything else, the reverse is a much bigger problem.

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Originally posted by AzarWerthead, through contrasting the breadbasket of The Realms with various real-world territories, you have gone above and beyond in addressing this misconception; that is exactly what I needed. Thank you. Another question, if you do not mind obliging a fellow geek: was that area calculation based on the 3e map? I have learned that the 3e version of The Forgotten Realms is a bit "compressed" (i.e., shrunken) compared to 1e and 2e. Check out the following website (it is written in Italian but easily translated to English) -> Forgotten Realms Map Guide - Dungeons & Dragons - Dragons' Lair.

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