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varyar
Learned Scribe
143 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2025 : 16:44:24
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Hello all,
I'm curious about the idea that the Finnish pantheon as a whole tried to establish itself on Faerûn in the past. We know Kiputytto was present but died (twice, per a recent-ish Ed Greenwood tweet) and that Mielikki and Loviatar are still going strong.
But when and where did they (and any other divine relations) appear on Toril? Faiths & Avatars doesn't give much information that I could find. I looked around here but while I found a fair number of interesting ideas, none of it was very recent. At the very latest, Kiputytto was around after the fall of Netheril, when Talona defeated her in one of the successor states. What is the earliest they might have appeared, though?
What do the sages here think on the matter?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36835 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2025 : 22:14:48
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| I don't recall anything saying the entire pantheon tried to come to Toril. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
975 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2025 : 23:30:08
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| I'm with Wooly. No reason to believe they all tried. On Hallowed Ground suggests the rest of the pantheon have become somewhat uncaring about their fates, with only the younger Loviatar and Mielikki striving to remain vital. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11909 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2025 : 00:46:54
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| The city of Medinat Muskawoon in the Desert of Desolation module was placed in FR after initially having been in Greyhawk. It had a ruined temple of Untamo (god of sleep and dreams) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2447 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2025 : 02:49:55
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It does not need to be "as a whole". It would be enough that they are not terribly busy lately, and occasionally spy on each other.
"Hey, Loviatar's kip is lively these days. Is she up to something? Let's see... Oh." Rinse, repeat. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Alberto_Magnus
Acolyte
Italy
6 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2025 : 04:57:36
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- a little bit OT, but it is interesting to notice that aside Mielikki, Loviatar and Kiputytto in the Finnish epic Kalevala there is mention of a goddess called Ilmatar.
Also, Loviatar and her sister/alter ego Lohui seem to have, in Finnish mythology, Talona's portfolio rather than pain and the dark side of lust. It is interesting since in Faiths & Avatars there is the story of how their rivalry began while serving Bhaal. And if I remember correctly it was Talona herself who slew Kiputytto. |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1002 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2025 : 09:55:44
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| I don't remember any material about the Finnish pantheon as a whole, or for that matter any human Western multi spheric pantheon, wanted to go to Toril. Individual gods such as Dionysius (Ilmater saint) I can easily believe. After the stunt the Imaskari wizards pulled on the Untheric and mulhorandi pantheons, I would think many human pantheons thought Toril had too many actively hostile humans to gather worshippers. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11909 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2025 : 13:36:23
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On the Ilmater / Ilmatar thing.... I correlate that to just a similar sounding name because the gods are almost wholely different. One is a female goddess of the air and nature. The other is a crippled god who takes on the pain of the downtrodden and be a martyr. If anything, Ilmater is another name for the Nehwon god Issek of the Jug... who to note was NOT a strong god in nehwon. In fact, it would seem like he's been "martyred" several times in Nehwon and created separate "instances" of himself possibly as a result. So, I could see why he might come to Toril and not be terribly worried about having the same name. The idea that he has numerous "saints" fits with Issek of the Jug. In FR, they turned "Dionysus" into not a deity, but rather a "saint" who simply had the name of a deity of other worlds (which, hey, there are mortals of Toril named things like Torm). I wouldn't be surprised if there was some confusion as well about Issek of the Jug and maybe a link to alcohol, which honestly COULD work as a link to a "painkiller" in a limited degree, but the Nehwonian "jug" held "the waters of peace". To add to this, I could swear somewhere Ed said his original influence for Ilmater was Issek.
Also, the thing with Dionysus was entirely a FIX put in because the original modules for bloodstone came out right as the realms were released. The original bloodstone lands for instance claimed Dionysus and Poseidon were active in that region, so tying the region to Greco-Roman gods, and made the priest of Dionysus a "typical drunken priest". So, we have fixes on fixes throughout material over time.
Nor does Ilmater necessarily have to be related to Issek of the Jug. He could be related to other deities after all (some could see a link to Jesus... others could see Balder as a reborn god (others may relate him to Blind Hodr who ends up in Hel after Balder is reborn... almost like he's playing martyr and taking Balder's place in Hel). Or he could simply be another god with no ties to anything but Toril, possibly even a risen mortal like so many others.... maybe a demigod by birth who sacrificed himself and rose.
From Lean Times in Lankhmar... I believe.. I never read all the Nehwon books and so this is from googling. Noting, mentions of saints, different ways of being martyred, etc...
Now Issek of the Jug, whom Fafhrd chose to serve, was one of the most lowly and unsuccessful of the gods, godlets rather, in Lankhmar. He had dwelt there for about thirteen years, during which time he had traveled only two squares up the Street of the Gods and was now back again, ready for oblivion. He is not to be confused with Issek the Armless, Issek of the Burnt Legs, Flayed Issek, or any other of the numerous and colorfully mutilated divinities of that name. Indeed, his unpopularity may have been due in part to the fact that the manner of his death—racking—was not deemed particularly spectacular. A few scholars have confused him with Jugged Issek, an entirely different saintlet whose claim to immortality lay in his confinement for seventeen years in a not overly roomy earthenware jar. The Jug (Issek of the Jug's Jug) was supposed to contain Waters of Peace from the Cistern of Cillivat—but none apparently thirsted for them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Jan 2025 14:03:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36835 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2025 : 04:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To add to this, I could swear somewhere Ed said his original influence for Ilmater was Issek.
The "Down to Earth Divinity" article doesn't say that was the original influence, but it does make the connection:
"ILMATER This god appears as a broken man, with smashed hands which he constantly uses. He is the willing sufferer, similar to Issek of the Jug (DDG, p. 100). He shares the latter’s power to manifest himself in creatures being tortured, but only if such creatures are of good alignment and have not done anything to deserve such treatment." |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Jan 2025 04:17:52 |
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Alberto_Magnus
Acolyte
Italy
6 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2025 : 09:30:52
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the Ilmater / Ilmatar thing.... I correlate that to just a similar sounding name because the gods are almost wholely different. One is a female goddess of the air and nature. The other is a crippled god who takes on the pain of the downtrodden and be a martyr. If anything, Ilmater is another name for the Nehwon god Issek of the Jug... who to note was NOT a strong god in nehwon. In fact, it would seem like he's been "martyred" several times in Nehwon and created separate "instances" of himself possibly as a result. So, I could see why he might come to Toril and not be terribly worried about having the same name. The idea that he has numerous "saints" fits with Issek of the Jug. In FR, they turned "Dionysus" into not a deity, but rather a "saint" who simply had the name of a deity of other worlds (which, hey, there are mortals of Toril named things like Torm). I wouldn't be surprised if there was some confusion as well about Issek of the Jug and maybe a link to alcohol, which honestly COULD work as a link to a "painkiller" in a limited degree, but the Nehwonian "jug" held "the waters of peace". To add to this, I could swear somewhere Ed said his original influence for Ilmater was Issek.
Also, the thing with Dionysus was entirely a FIX put in because the original modules for bloodstone came out right as the realms were released. The original bloodstone lands for instance claimed Dionysus and Poseidon were active in that region, so tying the region to Greco-Roman gods, and made the priest of Dionysus a "typical drunken priest". So, we have fixes on fixes throughout material over time.
Nor does Ilmater necessarily have to be related to Issek of the Jug. He could be related to other deities after all (some could see a link to Jesus... others could see Balder as a reborn god (others may relate him to Blind Hodr who ends up in Hel after Balder is reborn... almost like he's playing martyr and taking Balder's place in Hel). Or he could simply be another god with no ties to anything but Toril, possibly even a risen mortal like so many others.... maybe a demigod by birth who sacrificed himself and rose.
From Lean Times in Lankhmar... I believe.. I never read all the Nehwon books and so this is from googling. Noting, mentions of saints, different ways of being martyred, etc...
Now Issek of the Jug, whom Fafhrd chose to serve, was one of the most lowly and unsuccessful of the gods, godlets rather, in Lankhmar. He had dwelt there for about thirteen years, during which time he had traveled only two squares up the Street of the Gods and was now back again, ready for oblivion. He is not to be confused with Issek the Armless, Issek of the Burnt Legs, Flayed Issek, or any other of the numerous and colorfully mutilated divinities of that name. Indeed, his unpopularity may have been due in part to the fact that the manner of his death—racking—was not deemed particularly spectacular. A few scholars have confused him with Jugged Issek, an entirely different saintlet whose claim to immortality lay in his confinement for seventeen years in a not overly roomy earthenware jar. The Jug (Issek of the Jug's Jug) was supposed to contain Waters of Peace from the Cistern of Cillivat—but none apparently thirsted for them.
Yes of course, it just sounded like a curious assonance.
I agree that Ilmater is its own god, and one of the most interesting ones. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11909 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2025 : 14:03:44
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| Oh, and on the Greco-Roman gods linked to bloodstone lands .... I personally find it much more likely that those deities (as well as the norse) have been involved with the realms. We have several instances where the gods of Toril absolutely sound like other similar gods. Tyr is one obvious one from Norse (though Ed says different), but Helm standing at the top of a rainbow bridge / celestial staircase to the "heavens" and standing as a guardian screams Heimdall. Desert of Desolation includes Balder's temple. I had a lot of personal fun creating a "Metahel" pantheon for Anchorome that was a mix of tying Faerunian deities and Norse deities and then twisting them (for instance, Thor becoming Thoros with seeming ties to Talos.... Sif becoming Sifya the Warmother with seeming ties to the Red Knight, etc...). Tyche is another goddess for Greco-Roman, but there's also Prometheus in Desert of Desolation. I half wonder if many of the Greco-Roman gods may not have been worshipped for a time (possibly under other names) in Chessenta, Chondath, & Jhaamdath before getting supplanted (for instance, if there were priests of Apollo, Lathander definitely could be an alias or could have taken his worshippers... similar with Sune and Aphrodite) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Placing the Finnish pantheon in time and space?
