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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1173 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2025 : 17:09:50
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Do we have any official confirmation of encounters and interactions between the Sarrukh, Batrachi or Aearee with primordials? Or even any reasonable speculation? All I can really think of is Bazim Gorag and Zoukodien but then again, I have no idea what Bazim-Gorag is officially today? Is he slaad (according to Dungeon he was, GHotR he wasn’t), primordial? Batrachi himself?
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2491 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2025 : 19:01:22
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The time of the primordials was way before the time of the sarrukh, so unless they worshiped Ubtao (something I doubt), there was no interaction between sarrukh and primordials.
That said, according to some sarrukh records found in the ruins of Okoth, and echoed in the legends and history books of the people of Laerakond (aka Returned Abeir), the batrachi unleashed a lot of sealed primordials into the world in the last years of the Days of Thunder, causing the Tearfall and the crisis that eventually "sundered" Abeir from Toril.
I don't think the aearee interacted with any primordials, unless they worshiped Akadi.
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I have no idea what Bazim-Gorag is officially today? Is he slaad (according to Dungeon he was, GHotR he wasn’t), primordial? Batrachi himself?
Bazim-Gorag started as a slaad or a batrachi (or some combination of them, lol), but later evolved into a primordial somehow. Is the only known case of a creature becoming a primordial that I'm aware of. My theory is that it has something to do with the Pandemonium Stone. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Jan 2025 19:10:07 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1173 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2025 : 22:49:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The time of the primordials was way before the time of the sarrukh, so unless they worshiped Ubtao (something I doubt), there was no interaction between sarrukh and primordials.
That said, according to some sarrukh records found in the ruins of Okoth, and echoed in the legends and history books of the people of Laerakond (aka Returned Abeir), the batrachi unleashed a lot of sealed primordials into the world in the last years of the Days of Thunder, causing the Tearfall and the crisis that eventually "sundered" Abeir from Toril.
I don't think the aearee interacted with any primordials, unless they worshiped Akadi.
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I have no idea what Bazim-Gorag is officially today? Is he slaad (according to Dungeon he was, GHotR he wasn’t), primordial? Batrachi himself?
Bazim-Gorag started as a slaad or a batrachi (or some combination of them, lol), but later evolved into a primordial somehow. Is the only known case of a creature becoming a primordial that I'm aware of. My theory is that it has something to do with the Pandemonium Stone.
Very informative response, thank you. I live and die by the GHotR - did anyone ever estimate and of the major events of 4e applied to the DR timeline? I mean, did Abeir split off in -50,000 DR? -500,000? I hope they don’t use one of the “time was different back then and no one can quite tell” copouts. I find it really important when designing adventures to have a grip on when things occurred. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11904 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2025 : 14:55:08
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| I once again return to the concept that "Primordials using dragon mounts" .... may not be the literal picture that most of use picture. I propose that it was more of a "dragons were being possessed / mind ridden by primordials". This even more explains why dragons betrayed their "masters" when they got the chance. Dragons may then have created and/or employed magics that forced primordials to go to sleep. To note, this may have even had repercussions on dragons, such that the need of dragons to sleep for years at a time may be some result of what they did to primordials. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11904 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2025 : 14:58:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The time of the primordials was way before the time of the sarrukh, so unless they worshiped Ubtao (something I doubt), there was no interaction between sarrukh and primordials.
That said, according to some sarrukh records found in the ruins of Okoth, and echoed in the legends and history books of the people of Laerakond (aka Returned Abeir), the batrachi unleashed a lot of sealed primordials into the world in the last years of the Days of Thunder, causing the Tearfall and the crisis that eventually "sundered" Abeir from Toril.
I don't think the aearee interacted with any primordials, unless they worshiped Akadi.
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I have no idea what Bazim-Gorag is officially today? Is he slaad (according to Dungeon he was, GHotR he wasn’t), primordial? Batrachi himself?
Bazim-Gorag started as a slaad or a batrachi (or some combination of them, lol), but later evolved into a primordial somehow. Is the only known case of a creature becoming a primordial that I'm aware of. My theory is that it has something to do with the Pandemonium Stone.
Perhaps the Pandemonium stone is the body of a primordial that was slain, and perhaps Bazim-Gorag tied himself to this body in a way somewhat similar to a lich and its phylactery. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2491 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2025 : 15:58:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Very informative response, thank you. I live and die by the GHotR - did anyone ever estimate and of the major events of 4e applied to the DR timeline? I mean, did Abeir split off in -50,000 DR? -500,000? I hope they don’t use one of the “time was different back then and no one can quite tell” copouts. I find it really important when designing adventures to have a grip on when things occurred.
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (4e) states that the batrachi summoning Asgorath and the other primordials happened in -31000 DR. So, I assume that the sundering of the worlds may have happened the same year. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11904 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2025 : 22:34:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Very informative response, thank you. I live and die by the GHotR - did anyone ever estimate and of the major events of 4e applied to the DR timeline? I mean, did Abeir split off in -50,000 DR? -500,000? I hope they don’t use one of the “time was different back then and no one can quite tell” copouts. I find it really important when designing adventures to have a grip on when things occurred.
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (4e) states that the batrachi summoning Asgorath and the other primordials happened in -31000 DR. So, I assume that the sundering of the worlds may have happened the same year.
Yeah, I'd agree here. The tearfall and the abeir/toril split was in -31000. That's also when there was a rain of red dragon eggs. BUT THERE WERE DRAGONS AROUND BEFORE THIS. People tend to state that -31000 is when dragons appeared, but the primordials "had dragons as mounts that turned on them after the splitting of Abeir and Toril"... so ergo, there were dragons before the rain of dragon eggs in the Tearfall.
This is why I've wondered if the "Asgorath breathed its breath on the crystal sun and destroyed it, and was split into two beings" might be different than "when an ice moon was hurled by Asgoroth at Toril". The destruction of the crystal sun may have caused the shadow epoch. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1000 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2025 : 08:46:09
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| Dendar swallowed the original sun which is what caused the Shadow Epoch. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11904 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2025 : 13:08:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Dendar swallowed the original sun which is what caused the Shadow Epoch.
On this, I'm not actually sure if its true. I know we can probably find someone in canon saying Dendar.... but most references say "the Night Serpent". I'm just rolling out an idea in the below, for discussion and/or improvement, so please take it in that vein. To note, the stuff about the "Book of the World" found in the draconomicon even questions if the world being talked about was Toril, and since it talks about the world being flat... there's multiple options available (there's a flat world, H'Catha, on the outer edges... the crystal sun might have been what remains as the remnants of Coliar for example)
I know Dendar is called Dendar the Night Serpent, but I also kind of wonder if it wasn't another being. We also have that when Asgorath "breathed her breath" upon the crystal sun, she was split into multiple individuals (at least two). With this myth, we have uncertain person and people making "guesses" about what it means and who are the "renegade" and who are the . Later we see a different spelling, Asgoroth as a he, who supposedly hurls the ice moon zotha at the world. So, I propose that Dendar wasn't "the night serpent" at that time. In fact, Dendar MIGHT actually be something like Bazim-Gorag... "an ascended primordial" .... possibly from having performed some ritual involving the crystal shards and/or the blood of Asgorath. Thus if "Asgorath" was the "Night Serpent" and "The World Shaper" .... then perhaps Dendar was something like an ascended sarrukh that became a primordial (or simply an ascended giant/dire constrictor snake that was awakened ). So, just like we have stories of mortals becoming gods, long ago maybe there were similar stories of mortals taking the power of primordials for themselves.
The World was still flat, here before the beginning of Time, before Asgorath the World-Shaper folded the cloth of existence into its final form. The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good.
And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World. Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2491 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2025 : 11:30:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On this, I'm not actually sure if its true. I know we can probably find someone in canon saying Dendar.... but most references say "the Night Serpent".
Well, the info in the FRCG says it was Dendar the Night Serpent who swallowed the Sun and started the Shadow Epoch. That said, the FRCG states that this info comes from the legends found in the ruins of Okoth and the traditions of the dragonborn of Laerakond. But having, I won't be putting my complete faith in the completely biased red dragon myth from the
Book of the World... If anything, two sources confirming something (the sarrukh of Okoth and the dragonborn of Abeir) may beat a single one.
quote:
Later we see a different spelling, Asgoroth as a he, who supposedly hurls the ice moon zotha at the world.
Nope. The "Asgoroth" in the FRCG is referred to as a she. Also, that "o" seems to be a typo, as Asgorath (with "a") is listed as the divine primordial who created dragons from Abeir-Toril in the "Roll of Known Primordials" published in Heroes of the Elemental Chaos.
So, at much we could say that Asgoroth seems to be an "Abeiran spelling" of Asgorath, though the SCAG implies that the dragonborn call him (or her) Io. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11904 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2025 : 16:56:40
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Thanks for making me reread the 4e FRCG. Yep, there the spelling of the name changes for during the time of the tearfall, but still a she. Other spots, Asgorath is referred to as he, but not a major sticking point. The reference in the 4e FRCG is one of those however where they just say "the night serpent" and not specifically saying Dendar in regards the shadow epoch (in fact, this may be the first reference to it being called the shadow epoch).
In the below, just playing with semantics and an idea. Not necessarily sold that its good in my own head, but sometimes things develop.
AsgorAth, while on a flat world, destroys a "crystal sun" made by Zotha. AsgorAth "dies" from shards of the crystal sun. AsgorAth then has her blood mix with "the Powers of the World" and the "Powers of the Crystal Sun". From this blood come dragons with scaled "the Pure Red of the Crystal Sun". It doesn't say that they are necessarily "red dragons", nor does it say that they necessarily have fire for breath.... or that they even all have the same breath weapon. IN THEORY (and I am literally just realizing this) they could have been ruby dragons .... or even a mixture of red dragons and ruby dragons.
So, then it goes on to say that these "red colored dragons" bent their "breaths" against the cold form of AsgorAth. It says that one of them "the renegade" chooses to withhold its breath, takes a "crystal shard of the crystal sun", cuts its own flesh and from ITS blood come dragons with skin like unliving metal. So, IN THEORY again, "the renegade" would have had "red skin" and would have produced a dragon with "metallic skin". What if "the renegade" was Sardior the Ruby Dragon, and what if one of the dragons of unliving metal he created was "Bahamut" OR "Lendys" and "Tamara" who are also noted as platinum colored dragons?
In this, I'll note that Sardior is noted as a god of night, psionics, and secrets. So, in theory, he may have "inherited" night from the now dead Asgorath. In theory as well, Dendar may have taken the title of "the Night Serpent" if it had SOMEHOW become an ascendant primordial by interacting with the body of AsgorAth. Thinking on that, Bazim-Gorag may have done the exact same thing, but having been turned into a being of fire, since we don't know WHAT he did to ascend either.... and I can see the body of AsgorAth being related to fire. This might lend itself to the idea that the "pandemonium stone" is a portion of the body of AsgorAth.
Hmmm, in all this... the "black crystals" that we keep seeing show up in modules that can be used to modify time, etc.... crystal shards of the dead sun infused with the power of AsgorAth via its blood?
Four thousand years Later, during the tearfall/sundering of Abeir/Toril, we see AsgorOth going up and grabbing an ice moon and hurling it at Toril, intent upon destroying the world that she couldn't control. Then we're told that Ao splits the world to save everyone... but this ice moon still hits Toril (whether it hit Abeir where the primordials went???). From this event "dragons" appear in the world soon after (my theory... dragon eggs in the ice begin to thaw), though they must have been here prior. Based on my reread at this time, I don't necessarily think that these "dragons" were all red.. could have been a great variety.
Also, right after this, the aeaeree actually start gaining ground and the batrachi civilizations die off. My theory... Coliar piloted earth islands/earthmotes and water island(s) towards Toril. At least one of these "water islands" was filled with dragon eggs.
I half wonder if in all this.... somehow or other there's some correlation to the subtle name change (i.e. there's a part of me that's always wondered IF Asgoroth becomes Ao/Io in the splitting of worlds .... as in Ao is separate split off from Io... ). But that's definitely not something I'd push unless I had a good reason, but the idea of a splitting of worlds and a splitting of "overgods" kind of makes sense from a story perspective. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2491 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2025 : 07:41:16
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I can see some Sardiorites deniers of the Myth of the First World trying to make this sort of argument to try to give Sardior a more superior role in dragon mythology. That said, is also a very polemic take, as it's basically contradicted by all other sources: for instance, saying Sardior created metallic dragons, is contradicted by more sources saying either Bahamut or Io created metallic dragons. Saying Sardior spawned directly from Asgorath contradicts other sources that don't list Sardior as a direct spawn of Io/Asgorath (in fact, Sardior was kinda off the draconic gods genealogic tree, as he didn't figured in anything until 5e's Fizban's Treasury of Dragons said he was a son/creation of Bahamut and Tiamat).
As for the ice moon hitting a planet, it supposedly hit Toril, as the creation of the Sea of the Fallen Stars is credited to that moon impact.
As for linking Ao and Io, I don't think that this has any foundation? I mean, Ao is just an overpower of Realmspace, while Io is a power of the dragons in all worlds of the multiverse. Ao is supposedly focused in just the Faerunian pantheon at much (I don't have seen him interacting with other pantheons), while Io is preoccupied only with dragon's stuff, and is active in all worlds where dragons exist. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11904 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2025 : 14:26:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I can see some Sardiorites deniers of the Myth of the First World trying to make this sort of argument to try to give Sardior a more superior role in dragon mythology. That said, is also a very polemic take, as it's basically contradicted by all other sources: for instance, saying Sardior created metallic dragons, is contradicted by more sources saying either Bahamut or Io created metallic dragons. Saying Sardior spawned directly from Asgorath contradicts other sources that don't list Sardior as a direct spawn of Io/Asgorath (in fact, Sardior was kinda off the draconic gods genealogic tree, as he didn't figured in anything until 5e's Fizban's Treasury of Dragons said he was a son/creation of Bahamut and Tiamat).
As for the ice moon hitting a planet, it supposedly hit Toril, as the creation of the Sea of the Fallen Stars is credited to that moon impact.
As for linking Ao and Io, I don't think that this has any foundation? I mean, Ao is just an overpower of Realmspace, while Io is a power of the dragons in all worlds of the multiverse. Ao is supposedly focused in just the Faerunian pantheon at much (I don't have seen him interacting with other pantheons), while Io is preoccupied only with dragon's stuff, and is active in all worlds where dragons exist.
Well, just throwing out there again.... and strictly for discussion... just trying to see if this works.
So, IF Sardior created the "platinum" colored dragons.... he didn't create the "metallic" dragons. That could still fall to Lendys, Tamara, Bahamut. Of course, it could also be that "Sardior" is a child of the "renegade", and would thus be something like a cousin of Bahamut.
On the ice moon/comet hitting Toril... yeah, this is what's weird... So, Ao wanted to save the world from the primordials. So, he duplicates the world, then puts the primordials on the one that DOES NOT get hit by the big ball of ice that has world changing impacts.
On the Ao/Io thing, this is where I picture there being a split happening that somehow links the two worlds.... but one being in something LIKE the astral sea, and the other staying enclosed in a crystal sphere. This would make it that Ao becomes entrapped... still an powerful god/overgod... but entrapped to the crystal sphere of realmspace. If effect, a godly schism.
That of course brings up "if Asgoroth was a being who wanted to protect the world, why did she attack it with an ice moon?".... Playing through ideas here and what we've been told .... the "Primordials" were using "dragon mounts" .... I've stated in the past that I didn't see that like they were putting a saddle on them and riding them.
So, what if Asgoroth was being controlled by the "released by the batrachi" primordial Zotha... or maybe other dragons were and Asgoroth was attempting to remove them from enslavement? We also have from Ed himself that Asgoroth and Zotha were fighting during what would appear to be the tearfall
https://x.com/TheEdVerse/status/1199108030299885568
printing from Ed's thing, just to make this an easier read
Like most of what happened long, long ago, sentients alive today know little—and even less they can trust—of beings and events in the remote past. So take what I say here with a generous handful of salt. Except this: there is almost no Zotha lore, published in our real world or known in Toril today.
Right, here we go…some priesthoods, elder dragons, and sages believe that Zotha was a huge, flying being that in outward form resembled a real-world manta ray (having a flat, roughly-diamond-shaped body of two ‘wings’ depending out from a central body with a maw at the front, and a long, long tail at the back). Zotha was sentient, strong-willed, and among the early deities of Toril was nicknamed ‘the Devourer’ because in their belief (passed on by Asgorath?) Zotha created life and non-living things from the raw dust and energies of the Void purely to play with and then consume, whereupon it would create anew.
There were other Creator entities in existence in the vast Void, including Asgorath, who also created life and non-living things, and all of them tended to believe they held dominion over what they themselves had created.
But Zotha considered that all creations were for it to toy with, alter, and ultimately devour. Including Asgorath’s creation, Toril—but when Zotha sought to devour Toril, Asgorath defended Toril, at first by shielding it, and then by destroying Zotha, rending Zotha into many small, raw fragments. Some of these Asgorath consumed, so Zotha could never be reborn, but others fell onto Toril and seared their ways down into the deep places of Toril, where in time they became creatures that would in turn evolve into illithids and others (neogi? Beholders?).
I stress again that all of this is disputed and secondhand; no mortals alive today can know the truth of what befell in times so ancient. But some gods told versions of this tale to their priests in centuries agone, so these stories were set down, and passed down, and we have them now.
So, going back to what I was originally talking about... in theory... does this work for a possible timeline
A) Zotha creates the crystal sun, possibly at the behest or with the help of Selune. It seems like Zotha has ties to aberrations and possibly the far realm. Who knows what kind of life he started aiding /creating throughout realmspace after this
B) This crystal sun gets destroyed by Asgorath as the "night serpent". This may have been because Asgorath was being controlled by other primrodials OR acting as an avatar of Shar OR something else. It may have been an attempt to stop the powers of the Far Realm from infecting realmspace as an example (which actually seems noble).
C) Asgorath dies from the destruction of the crystal sun. Sardior "the renegade" is created, and from the blood of Asgorath that he releases by pulling a shard of Zotha out, the first platinum dragons are created (so possibly Lendys, Tamara, Bahamut, Paladine, etc... though some of these may be the same individual). The Shadow Epoch starts. So, in theory... this possibly becomes when red dragons, ruby dragons, and platinum dragons come about.
D) Ubtao "the Deceiver" acts against the other primordials, helps the world serpent (possibly Asgorath) and helps entrap the other primordials.
E) Selune and/or other powers reach across the universe and opens hundreds of portals on one of the planets, to the plane of fire. This becomes the new sun. At the same time, this section of wildspace becomes enclosed in a crystal sphere (if it wasn't already) and new portals open on its shell to the plane of radiance (thus the changing of the stars)
F) portions of the crystal sun remain floating in wildspace around the spot where the crystal sun had been. They slowly gather more earth around them, and they become Coliar.
F) The sarrukh happen on Toril. Meanwhile, the progenitors of the Aeaeree start on Coliar (including a vast diaspora of dragonkind... possibly including dragonborn as well). The sarrukh fall. The batrachi happen on Toril. Maybe during this time, Asgorath is "reformed" in a weaker form on Coliar as Asgoroth, regaining strength over 4 millenia.
G) The progenitors of the Aeaeree and/or the dragons of Coliar begin piloting earthmotes towards Toril. Perhaps they are headed towards Toril to take slaves, particularly those of the fallen sarrukh such as the lizard folk. Perhaps they are simply looking to colonize or steal resources. They've also brought a water island with them, filled with dragon eggs, and as it moved farther from the sun it's frozen.
H) Seeing a potential invasion force, the batrachi find a way to release the primordials that the gods had secured. In particular, one of these is Zotha "the devourer". SOMETHING happens (the possibilities here .... a lot), and it may have been over years, not instantaneous.... but in the end, Asgoroth hurls this frozen ice ball filled with dragon eggs at Zotha in an attempt to kill it... and also attacks it.
I) Asgorath does SOMETHING to try and protect dragonkind. Splitting themself intto Ao and Io, they duplicate this one world. They drag the primordials into the new world in such a way that it limits their power sources, and the dragons themselves turn against these primordials. Many of the earthmotes that had come from Coliar ALSO go to this new world (Abeir), noting that the inhabitants of these earthmotes revere the dragons already. Io acts as the outer planar power, but Ao is limited to the crystal sphere of Toril.
J) Meanwhile, the world that's left behind full of sarrukh, batrachi, giants, etc.... gets slammed by the ice ball containing dragon eggs. The Aeaeree civilization gains prominence as well from those peoples of Coliar that didn't go to Abeir. The batrachi civilization falls because of all the destruction and climatic changes.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1173 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2025 : 01:02:55
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| I don't mean to add a whole new level of confusion to this, but I have a hard time understanding why the Ferrous Dragons and their paragon Graughlothor are so rarely brought up. I know we don't really get to consider one off Dragon magazine articles as canon anymore, but I have always thought the dragons of Coliar would be perfect as the ferrous dragons. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2491 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2025 : 01:44:49
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| As someone who basically started with 4e (technically, I started playing 3.x, but in the late 2007/early 2008 -and 4e was released in may 2008, so I basically jumped to 4e and delved into the lore from that edition), the iron dragon will always be among the metallic dragons for me. Granted, I don't know much of these ferrous dragons, as they haven't been mentioned in the Draconomicons. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11904 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2025 : 16:49:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I don't mean to add a whole new level of confusion to this, but I have a hard time understanding why the Ferrous Dragons and their paragon Graughlothor are so rarely brought up. I know we don't really get to consider one off Dragon magazine articles as canon anymore, but I have always thought the dragons of Coliar would be perfect as the ferrous dragons.
News to me. I never really heard of these, but apparently they were in dragon 170 (June 1991, so a few years into 2nd edition). Just goes to show much I've read over time and forgotten (I remember the cover from that issue).
That being said, I'm literally reading the article and looking at them.
Nickel dragons - CN dragons that live in swamps and have an acidic cloud breath weapon.
Tungsten dragons - they breath sand and live in deserts, so very much similar to brown dragons, except they're good.
cobalt dragons - an evil splotchy blue colored dragon that lives in forests and has a magnetic breath weapon affecting people in ferrous armors. They're immune to electricity.
chromium dragons - an evil dragon with silvery scales often confused with silver dragons. Silver dragons hunt them mercilessly when the discover one nearby. Chromium dragons meanwhile dominate white dragons. Icy breaths (cloud of cold crystals or a solid bolt of ice), and immunity to cold. They live in extremely cold areas.
iron dragons - an LN dragon with a sleep breath and a "cone of superheated sparks" breath, that live underground in areas near red dragons and near iron deposits. They hoard and eat iron deposits, which may be necessary for reproduction. They have skin that's black, like cast iron skillets kind of I picture as young, but a more metallic black as adults. They hate red dragons, and are immune to fire damage. They can also polymorph and often appear in other forms.
Then there is their leader, Gruaghlothor, who is a powerful iron dragon that when killed gets "reborn" into another previously chosen iron dragon who goes into hibernation for a year and metamorphoses into Gruaghlothor.
So, of these dragons, the cobalt, chromium, and iron are the only that really catch my eyes, and only because of their stories or their weird abilities. Their supreme lord could possibly work best as a dragon that's familiar enough with magic to create something akin to a variation of a clone spell and/or the old way that dracoliches had to reform by using the body of a dead dragon.
That being said, the 4e draconomicon: metallic dragons mentions adamantine, cobalt, iron, mercury, mithral, orium, and steel. I'd prefer to have these be expanded upon, only because they're newer lore. Despite similarity in name, these dragons are much different, and since "new lore trumps old", it creates a bit of a quandary to try and use the old lore without putting in some kind of fix.
Adamantine dragons are underground dragons, with a thunder breath weapons. They "smell" of metal and are dark in hue... so in many ways they resemble the "iron dragons" mentioned previously. They tend to be brutish.
Cobalt dragons are cold or shadowfell dwellers with blue scales. Similar to Adamantine dragons, their focus is on strength, but they often have servitor minions. So, in many ways they take the role of "chromium" dragons mentioned in the earlier article.
Iron dragons in this are sly hunters, living in forests and hills, hunting boars, bears, etc... that like to ambush and use their lightning breath to attack, and they like to dupe intelligent foes into attacking their enemies. So, they take the role somewhat of the cobalt dragon in the prior article, except they have lightning breath instead of magnetic breath (and they are not blue).
I like the steel dragons in this as a dragon with their look
"Compared to other metallic dragons, a steel dragon has a slight build and a small head. Swordlike frills grow from its head, elbows, and digits. Its wings consist of overlapping blades that look like feathers, and the scales on the dragon's chest resemble
shields. " So, I don't picture them having wings like a bird's wings, but rather they have wing blades that might resemble a bunch of sliding knife blades that they can make slide out and make a "fixed" wing if they like.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Creator Races and Primordials
