| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1172 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2025 : 17:09:50
|
|
Do we have any official confirmation of encounters and interactions between the Sarrukh, Batrachi or Aearee with primordials? Or even any reasonable speculation? All I can really think of is Bazim Gorag and Zoukodien but then again, I have no idea what Bazim-Gorag is officially today? Is he slaad (according to Dungeon he was, GHotR he wasn’t), primordial? Batrachi himself?
|
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2489 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2025 : 19:01:22
|
The time of the primordials was way before the time of the sarrukh, so unless they worshiped Ubtao (something I doubt), there was no interaction between sarrukh and primordials.
That said, according to some sarrukh records found in the ruins of Okoth, and echoed in the legends and history books of the people of Laerakond (aka Returned Abeir), the batrachi unleashed a lot of sealed primordials into the world in the last years of the Days of Thunder, causing the Tearfall and the crisis that eventually "sundered" Abeir from Toril.
I don't think the aearee interacted with any primordials, unless they worshiped Akadi.
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I have no idea what Bazim-Gorag is officially today? Is he slaad (according to Dungeon he was, GHotR he wasn’t), primordial? Batrachi himself?
Bazim-Gorag started as a slaad or a batrachi (or some combination of them, lol), but later evolved into a primordial somehow. Is the only known case of a creature becoming a primordial that I'm aware of. My theory is that it has something to do with the Pandemonium Stone. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Jan 2025 19:10:07 |
 |
|
|
Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1172 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2025 : 22:49:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The time of the primordials was way before the time of the sarrukh, so unless they worshiped Ubtao (something I doubt), there was no interaction between sarrukh and primordials.
That said, according to some sarrukh records found in the ruins of Okoth, and echoed in the legends and history books of the people of Laerakond (aka Returned Abeir), the batrachi unleashed a lot of sealed primordials into the world in the last years of the Days of Thunder, causing the Tearfall and the crisis that eventually "sundered" Abeir from Toril.
I don't think the aearee interacted with any primordials, unless they worshiped Akadi.
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I have no idea what Bazim-Gorag is officially today? Is he slaad (according to Dungeon he was, GHotR he wasn’t), primordial? Batrachi himself?
Bazim-Gorag started as a slaad or a batrachi (or some combination of them, lol), but later evolved into a primordial somehow. Is the only known case of a creature becoming a primordial that I'm aware of. My theory is that it has something to do with the Pandemonium Stone.
Very informative response, thank you. I live and die by the GHotR - did anyone ever estimate and of the major events of 4e applied to the DR timeline? I mean, did Abeir split off in -50,000 DR? -500,000? I hope they don’t use one of the “time was different back then and no one can quite tell” copouts. I find it really important when designing adventures to have a grip on when things occurred. |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11900 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2025 : 14:55:08
|
| I once again return to the concept that "Primordials using dragon mounts" .... may not be the literal picture that most of use picture. I propose that it was more of a "dragons were being possessed / mind ridden by primordials". This even more explains why dragons betrayed their "masters" when they got the chance. Dragons may then have created and/or employed magics that forced primordials to go to sleep. To note, this may have even had repercussions on dragons, such that the need of dragons to sleep for years at a time may be some result of what they did to primordials. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11900 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2025 : 14:58:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The time of the primordials was way before the time of the sarrukh, so unless they worshiped Ubtao (something I doubt), there was no interaction between sarrukh and primordials.
That said, according to some sarrukh records found in the ruins of Okoth, and echoed in the legends and history books of the people of Laerakond (aka Returned Abeir), the batrachi unleashed a lot of sealed primordials into the world in the last years of the Days of Thunder, causing the Tearfall and the crisis that eventually "sundered" Abeir from Toril.
I don't think the aearee interacted with any primordials, unless they worshiped Akadi.
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I have no idea what Bazim-Gorag is officially today? Is he slaad (according to Dungeon he was, GHotR he wasn’t), primordial? Batrachi himself?
Bazim-Gorag started as a slaad or a batrachi (or some combination of them, lol), but later evolved into a primordial somehow. Is the only known case of a creature becoming a primordial that I'm aware of. My theory is that it has something to do with the Pandemonium Stone.
Perhaps the Pandemonium stone is the body of a primordial that was slain, and perhaps Bazim-Gorag tied himself to this body in a way somewhat similar to a lich and its phylactery. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2489 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2025 : 15:58:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Very informative response, thank you. I live and die by the GHotR - did anyone ever estimate and of the major events of 4e applied to the DR timeline? I mean, did Abeir split off in -50,000 DR? -500,000? I hope they don’t use one of the “time was different back then and no one can quite tell” copouts. I find it really important when designing adventures to have a grip on when things occurred.
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (4e) states that the batrachi summoning Asgorath and the other primordials happened in -31000 DR. So, I assume that the sundering of the worlds may have happened the same year. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11900 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2025 : 22:34:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Very informative response, thank you. I live and die by the GHotR - did anyone ever estimate and of the major events of 4e applied to the DR timeline? I mean, did Abeir split off in -50,000 DR? -500,000? I hope they don’t use one of the “time was different back then and no one can quite tell” copouts. I find it really important when designing adventures to have a grip on when things occurred.
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (4e) states that the batrachi summoning Asgorath and the other primordials happened in -31000 DR. So, I assume that the sundering of the worlds may have happened the same year.
Yeah, I'd agree here. The tearfall and the abeir/toril split was in -31000. That's also when there was a rain of red dragon eggs. BUT THERE WERE DRAGONS AROUND BEFORE THIS. People tend to state that -31000 is when dragons appeared, but the primordials "had dragons as mounts that turned on them after the splitting of Abeir and Toril"... so ergo, there were dragons before the rain of dragon eggs in the Tearfall.
This is why I've wondered if the "Asgorath breathed its breath on the crystal sun and destroyed it, and was split into two beings" might be different than "when an ice moon was hurled by Asgoroth at Toril". The destruction of the crystal sun may have caused the shadow epoch. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2025 : 08:46:09
|
| Dendar swallowed the original sun which is what caused the Shadow Epoch. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11900 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2025 : 13:08:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Dendar swallowed the original sun which is what caused the Shadow Epoch.
On this, I'm not actually sure if its true. I know we can probably find someone in canon saying Dendar.... but most references say "the Night Serpent". I'm just rolling out an idea in the below, for discussion and/or improvement, so please take it in that vein. To note, the stuff about the "Book of the World" found in the draconomicon even questions if the world being talked about was Toril, and since it talks about the world being flat... there's multiple options available (there's a flat world, H'Catha, on the outer edges... the crystal sun might have been what remains as the remnants of Coliar for example)
I know Dendar is called Dendar the Night Serpent, but I also kind of wonder if it wasn't another being. We also have that when Asgorath "breathed her breath" upon the crystal sun, she was split into multiple individuals (at least two). With this myth, we have uncertain person and people making "guesses" about what it means and who are the "renegade" and who are the . Later we see a different spelling, Asgoroth as a he, who supposedly hurls the ice moon zotha at the world. So, I propose that Dendar wasn't "the night serpent" at that time. In fact, Dendar MIGHT actually be something like Bazim-Gorag... "an ascended primordial" .... possibly from having performed some ritual involving the crystal shards and/or the blood of Asgorath. Thus if "Asgorath" was the "Night Serpent" and "The World Shaper" .... then perhaps Dendar was something like an ascended sarrukh that became a primordial (or simply an ascended giant/dire constrictor snake that was awakened ). So, just like we have stories of mortals becoming gods, long ago maybe there were similar stories of mortals taking the power of primordials for themselves.
The World was still flat, here before the beginning of Time, before Asgorath the World-Shaper folded the cloth of existence into its final form. The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good.
And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World. Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2489 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2025 : 11:30:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On this, I'm not actually sure if its true. I know we can probably find someone in canon saying Dendar.... but most references say "the Night Serpent".
Well, the info in the FRCG says it was Dendar the Night Serpent who swallowed the Sun and started the Shadow Epoch. That said, the FRCG states that this info comes from the legends found in the ruins of Okoth and the traditions of the dragonborn of Laerakond. But having, I won't be putting my complete faith in the completely biased red dragon myth from the
Book of the World... If anything, two sources confirming something (the sarrukh of Okoth and the dragonborn of Abeir) may beat a single one.
quote:
Later we see a different spelling, Asgoroth as a he, who supposedly hurls the ice moon zotha at the world.
Nope. The "Asgoroth" in the FRCG is referred to as a she. Also, that "o" seems to be a typo, as Asgorath (with "a") is listed as the divine primordial who created dragons from Abeir-Toril in the "Roll of Known Primordials" published in Heroes of the Elemental Chaos.
So, at much we could say that Asgoroth seems to be an "Abeiran spelling" of Asgorath, though the SCAG implies that the dragonborn call him (or her) Io. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11900 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2025 : 16:56:40
|
Thanks for making me reread the 4e FRCG. Yep, there the spelling of the name changes for during the time of the tearfall, but still a she. Other spots, Asgorath is referred to as he, but not a major sticking point. The reference in the 4e FRCG is one of those however where they just say "the night serpent" and not specifically saying Dendar in regards the shadow epoch (in fact, this may be the first reference to it being called the shadow epoch).
In the below, just playing with semantics and an idea. Not necessarily sold that its good in my own head, but sometimes things develop.
AsgorAth, while on a flat world, destroys a "crystal sun" made by Zotha. AsgorAth "dies" from shards of the crystal sun. AsgorAth then has her blood mix with "the Powers of the World" and the "Powers of the Crystal Sun". From this blood come dragons with scaled "the Pure Red of the Crystal Sun". It doesn't say that they are necessarily "red dragons", nor does it say that they necessarily have fire for breath.... or that they even all have the same breath weapon. IN THEORY (and I am literally just realizing this) they could have been ruby dragons .... or even a mixture of red dragons and ruby dragons.
So, then it goes on to say that these "red colored dragons" bent their "breaths" against the cold form of AsgorAth. It says that one of them "the renegade" chooses to withhold its breath, takes a "crystal shard of the crystal sun", cuts its own flesh and from ITS blood come dragons with skin like unliving metal. So, IN THEORY again, "the renegade" would have had "red skin" and would have produced a dragon with "metallic skin". What if "the renegade" was Sardior the Ruby Dragon, and what if one of the dragons of unliving metal he created was "Bahamut" OR "Lendys" and "Tamara" who are also noted as platinum colored dragons?
In this, I'll note that Sardior is noted as a god of night, psionics, and secrets. So, in theory, he may have "inherited" night from the now dead Asgorath. In theory as well, Dendar may have taken the title of "the Night Serpent" if it had SOMEHOW become an ascendant primordial by interacting with the body of AsgorAth. Thinking on that, Bazim-Gorag may have done the exact same thing, but having been turned into a being of fire, since we don't know WHAT he did to ascend either.... and I can see the body of AsgorAth being related to fire. This might lend itself to the idea that the "pandemonium stone" is a portion of the body of AsgorAth.
Hmmm, in all this... the "black crystals" that we keep seeing show up in modules that can be used to modify time, etc.... crystal shards of the dead sun infused with the power of AsgorAth via its blood?
Four thousand years Later, during the tearfall/sundering of Abeir/Toril, we see AsgorOth going up and grabbing an ice moon and hurling it at Toril, intent upon destroying the world that she couldn't control. Then we're told that Ao splits the world to save everyone... but this ice moon still hits Toril (whether it hit Abeir where the primordials went???). From this event "dragons" appear in the world soon after (my theory... dragon eggs in the ice begin to thaw), though they must have been here prior. Based on my reread at this time, I don't necessarily think that these "dragons" were all red.. could have been a great variety.
Also, right after this, the aeaeree actually start gaining ground and the batrachi civilizations die off. My theory... Coliar piloted earth islands/earthmotes and water island(s) towards Toril. At least one of these "water islands" was filled with dragon eggs.
I half wonder if in all this.... somehow or other there's some correlation to the subtle name change (i.e. there's a part of me that's always wondered IF Asgoroth becomes Ao/Io in the splitting of worlds .... as in Ao is separate split off from Io... ). But that's definitely not something I'd push unless I had a good reason, but the idea of a splitting of worlds and a splitting of "overgods" kind of makes sense from a story perspective. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Creator Races and Primordials
