| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1293 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2025 : 20:42:02
|
While we know that Finder gave Alias her false memories of being an sell-sword adventurer; the sisters like Jade, Cat, Zhara also had some memories and skills (as a thief or mage or priestess) when they awoke. Do we think Phalse gave them their backstory and memories, or was it Tymora/another god?
Cat could recall her hometown of Ordulin but nothing else, and she knew how to cast spells when the Zhents captured her and gave her a minor spellbook. She was primarily motivated to get back her memory from Flattery which obviously didn't exist.
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36824 Posts |
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2025 : 16:20:38
|
| Agreed. |
 |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11896 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2025 : 20:16:21
|
I really need to go back and reread these old books with the foresight that I have now. I bet there's a billion twists I could throw on things
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1293 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2025 : 11:24:04
|
| Thanks all - my argument against it being Phalse would be that unlike Finder, Phalse would not know a lot of Realms lore and history that would make up the base knowledge needed for someone born in say Ordulin, Sembia - BUT - on reflection, if Phalse copied some base memories from the Alias clone and left most of it blank, then it works. Cat didn't know nearly anything other than where she was from (vs Alias having a full selection of adventures and Shadowdale that she remembered) - and Jade seemingly had no memories but didn't care which Olive loved about her. For Zhara we really don't get much of her memories/back story, so it could be she's like Jade/Cat with limited memories - in which case only Alias had a really fleshed out history beyond the amensia of the past year before her "birth" which was blank. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36824 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2025 : 17:28:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Thanks all - my argument against it being Phalse would be that unlike Finder, Phalse would not know a lot of Realms lore and history that would make up the base knowledge needed for someone born in say Ordulin, Sembia - BUT - on reflection, if Phalse copied some base memories from the Alias clone and left most of it blank, then it works. Cat didn't know nearly anything other than where she was from (vs Alias having a full selection of adventures and Shadowdale that she remembered) - and Jade seemingly had no memories but didn't care which Olive loved about her. For Zhara we really don't get much of her memories/back story, so it could be she's like Jade/Cat with limited memories - in which case only Alias had a really fleshed out history beyond the amensia of the past year before her "birth" which was blank.
That works. Phalse could have also skimmed some memories from the members of the Fire Knives, too, and used those.
I figure that since Phalse was expanding on the idea of the vessels being assassins that could be aimed at particular targets, he likely would want them to have at least enough memories and knowledge to be able to do what was expected. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2446 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2025 : 05:30:17
|
We won't know, in that if it's possible for a mid-level mageling, it's possible for Phalse, and if it's possible for Phalse, obviously it's possible for a deity.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That works. Phalse could have also skimmed some memories from the members of the Fire Knives, too, and used those.
I figure that since Phalse was expanding on the idea of the vessels being assassins that could be aimed at particular targets, he likely would want them to have at least enough memories and knowledge to be able to do what was expected.
Even if not particular targets (yet), Phalse seemed to have an idea of where he wants them to operate. He had the "second generation" cosmetically tweaked, clothed and equipped with particular places in mind.
Alias had mostly memories lifted from an actual adventuress. Phalse could copy or steal relevant memories too.
The simplest (if not with guaranteed quality) plan for stealing memories could indeed be done by any mageling with the right spells:
1. Procure some capability for handling obliviax safely. Spells blocking common mind probes (L2-L3 Abjuration spells - Mind Mantle / ESP Barricade / Iron Mind) would probably suffice.
2. Locate a growth of obliviax. Isolate a specimen and move it to some deserted place.
3. Arrange the known specimen feeding on the right people, or at least right sort of people. Many possible approaches at various levels of subtlety. The simplest is plain abduction under knockout poison.
4. Feed loaded obliviax to the intended recipient, possibly even unconscious (if going through the motions of eating can be stimulated).
5. ???
6. Profit! |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11896 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2025 : 11:53:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Thanks all - my argument against it being Phalse would be that unlike Finder, Phalse would not know a lot of Realms lore and history that would make up the base knowledge needed for someone born in say Ordulin, Sembia - BUT - on reflection, if Phalse copied some base memories from the Alias clone and left most of it blank, then it works.
Unless Phalse was a Leiran avatar in the form of a deepspawn.... I mean look at the description.... and the idea that he was a hordling fiend was ... well... a lie. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6369 Posts |
|
|
Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1293 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2025 : 21:19:34
|
| I like that Gary - and I think Phalse supplied Dragonbait to the group (and it was his soul they used in Alias) so it makes sense that Phalse would have access to souls when he made his clones. Less sure is what Phalse wanted with a bunch of femme fatales in Faerun, or why he wanted to work with Moander his sworn enemy. |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6369 Posts |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11896 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2025 : 15:04:10
|
| Unless again, Phalse wasn't a "hordling" and was instead a deepspawn of some sorts (maybe a fiendish deepspawn ... which might be termed as a hordling by some folk, etc...). We've debated here about whether the deepspawn spawn have souls, etc.... but maybe Phalse had prepared a clone of Alias, ate the original, allowing Alias' soul to go into the clone..... but then as a deepspawn able to create "spawn" of Alias. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Jan 2025 15:42:04 |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6369 Posts |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11896 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2025 : 22:24:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
They didn't all have the same memories or act the same.
The azure bonds wouldn't be necessary to control a deepspawn either because they obey the deepspawn so all you need do is coerce it with violence or reward.
Deepspawn does seem like the least likely means of producing something like alias. Alias' behaviour, memories, link to dragon bait etc just don't match up with what we know about deepspawn spawn.
Good point on the bonds, but there might be some other reason for a deepspawn to put bonds on their creations (for instance, maybe they plan to have someone else control them). It could also be an unusual deepspawn with ability to control memories (possibly even installing memories of another individual). But how Alias acts should have no bearing if she's not one of his spawn (the others in theory do), because remember I said he makes a clone of her and then eats her. So, Alias becomes reborn in a clone. It just seems really odd to have a being that has a description that pretty much matches a deepspawn (i.e. beholder like being with tentacles that end in mouths) making "clones" of a being and then having them have no relation to a deepspawn(even if the relation is deepspawn mated with a demon). Perhaps even Phalse is an unusual deepspawn that can assimilate a person by just eating like a finger.... or if Phalse is an avatar of Leira, I could easily buy a goddess of deception being able to do shenanigans. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6369 Posts |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31797 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2025 : 23:20:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
… or if Phalse is an avatar of Leira, I could easily buy a goddess of deception being able to do shenanigans.
I couldn’t quite get it to work at the time… but back when I was tinkering with the Alias clones for an idea I had elsewhere… I jotted down a brief note that a sliver of Leira’s divine essence may have found a temporary home in Phalse after she “died.” Kind of playing it like the whole Xvim-in-Bane conundrum.
I didn’t take it any further than that however… as I got distracted by something I was working on for the Border Kingdoms. And I know the timelines don’t exactly match up… but I’m a firm proponent of the idea that a deity’s divine essence can spread all across time and space … and should they perceive a potential for their death… they plan to divest a portion of their power in “avatars” upon the Prime Material Plane. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36824 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2025 : 01:22:12
|
Ed said that Phalse was a hordling fiend.
"Phalse (a hordling fiend from Carceri who in “true” form looks like a gigantic beholder with lamprey-like fanged mouths at the ends of his ten eyestalks rather than eyes (he does have a large central eye with a wide fanged maw under it, though his eye has no ant-magic powers, and he can grow more eyestalks than his customary ten at will, as well as regenerating lost eyestalks over about half a day, and injured ones within hours)." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11896 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2025 : 13:09:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ed said that Phalse was a hordling fiend.
"Phalse (a hordling fiend from Carceri who in “true” form looks like a gigantic beholder with lamprey-like fanged mouths at the ends of his ten eyestalks rather than eyes (he does have a large central eye with a wide fanged maw under it, though his eye has no ant-magic powers, and he can grow more eyestalks than his customary ten at will, as well as regenerating lost eyestalks over about half a day, and injured ones within hours)."
I know. I love Ed, but that doesn't mean that everything he does is golden, nor is he necessarily wrong based on what I say either. Or in other words, nor does that description preclude that hordling from being born of a demonic/deepspawn "mating" (mating being subjective on how the combining is done.... magically mixed .... physical implantation.... something involving shapechange ... or even just "when a god inhabited the body, they changed it" ....). For that matter, it could also be that deepspawn themselves are the result of this being mating with prime beings (i.e. maybe a beholder ). It just seems too blooming odd for a being whose description SO mUCH resembles a deepspawn (granted with a little uniqueness in regards regeneration....but then there are humans who discovered ways to regenerate, but they're still human), that's involved with "cloning" someone, etc.... to not see some kind of correlation between them.
Or in other words, what I'm saying is that there's more to done with the story. Why is making copies of Alias this important to Phalse? If he can instill different memories in them, are their other adult beings that may have "appeared on the scene" around this time that think they have a whole past life... and its just not true.
Just as an example, Midnight has a truename of A-R-I-E-L , so might we find out that some of the gods had a hint of what was coming with the ToT, maybe because they had a god of divination on their payroll, and thus they needed prepared "bodies" that they could inhabit for specific reasons... maybe bodies created from beings that may not even know that they are godblooded? So, if Phalse IS an avatar of L-E-I-R-A, might it be that behind the scenes, they wanted a "clone" of Cassana... maybe because Cassana's power was partly because she was godblooded (even if several generations diluted), and even she didn't know it? In this scenario, it may be that "Mystra" knew she was going to have to die..... no, not on the bifrost at the hands of Heimdall (I mean celestial staircase at the hands of Helm).... I mean that Mystra was going to have to die at the roundabout hands of Shar. So, she needed someone else bearing her name... her Alias .... to die in her place..... so that later she could return.
The machinations of gods should be complex for mortals to comprehend and span lifetimes. Phalse may have been an "avatar" of sorts of Leira for centuries. That may have been why Moander didn't just devour it/him/her, because Moander had an inkling that she was some kind of divine being. To note, even the gods may not understand all the machinations of one another.
Now, why would Leira help Mystra? Leira may be evil, but she's also the goddess of illusion. Maybe Mystra would reward her for help by making it that there was no "separation" between wizards and illusionists (i.e. that wizards would become illusionists/illusionists would become wizards and thus her portfolio expand more). Maybe it was because Leira knew Shar and knew that Shar would eventually try to consume her. Maybe it was that both Mystra and Leira are daughters of Selune... or Mystryl.... Maybe it was because Leira needed to preserve herself as well, and producing these Alias clones would give her a way to cheat death as well as Mystra doing similar.
In the end, I think there's a really good story to be spun out of this that's "unseen by mortals" who just go "yep, he was just some hordling fiend who wanted to make some clones".... and they dusted their hands together and moved on.... while the gods were doing something so much deeper when they created the IMMORTAL bodies of the alias clones. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
The Alias Clones
