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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Feb 2017 : 20:23:36
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Hey folks!
So It's a long standing pet-peeve of mine that one of the most iconic and most popular classes, the Fighter, displayed in revised 3rd Edition ended up the way it did. Now I'm not going to go through the entire list of reasons WHY I feel this way but THIS article does and nicely articulates why there is indeed a problem.
So I took it upon myself to take various things the Fighter excels at, took some features from Paizo (seemed only fitting), and created my own to come up with a revised version of the Class. The whole point is to make Fighters interesting to play and not be penalized if they don't want to Prestige Class if they don't want to. I made sure that anyone who used this class could instantly put it into their existing or new 3.5 game without referencing any other books besides the PHB. I hope you like it and as always, constructive criticism is appreciated.
FIGHTER
Alignment: Any
Starting Gold: 5d4x10
LvL BAB Fort | Ref | Will Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Bonus feat, weapon aptitude
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Bonus feat, warrior's cunning
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Armor Training (I)
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Bonus feat, weapon specialization
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Fearless, heroic action
6th +6 +5 +5 +2 Bonus feat
7th +7 +5 +5 +2 Armor training (II)
8th +8 +6 +6 +2 Bonus feat, improved critical
9th +9 +6 +6 +3 Greater weapon focus
10th +10 +7 +7 +3 Bonus feat, heroic action
11th +11 +7 +7 +3 Armor training (III)
12th +12 +8 +8 +4 Bonus feat, greater weapon specialization
13th +13 +8 +8 +4 Commanding presence
14th +14 +9 +9 +4 Bonus feat
15th +15 +9 +9 +5 Armor training (IV), heroic action
16th +16 +10 +10 +5 Bonus feat
17th +17 +10 +10 +5 Any weapon
18th +18 +11 +11 +5 Bonus feat
19th +19 +11 +11 +6 Armor Mastery
20th +20 +12 +12 +6 Bonus feat, heroic action
d10 Hit Die
Class Skills: 4 + Int per level (x4 at 1st level) - Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fighters are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor and shields (including tower shields).
Bonus Feats
At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.
Weapon Aptitude (Ex): A fighter has the flexibility to adjust his weapon training. Starting at 1st level, each morning he can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon or weapon group for any feat he has that applies only to one weapon or weapon group (such as Weapon Focus). He must have the newly designated weapon or a weapon from that particular group available during his practice session to make this change. The fighter can adjust any number of his feats in this way, and he don’t have to adjust them all in the same way. However, he can’t change the weapon choices in such a way that no longer meet the prerequisites for some other feat he possesses, such as Weapon Specialization or Improved Critical.
Warrior’s Cunning (Ex): A Fighter's skill and knack for combat allow him to achieve martial prowess with certain styles of fighting that normally are reserved for those who need natural talent to succeed. Beginning at 2nd level, a Fighter uses his Strength or Dexterity score in place of any other ability score requirement for the purposes of fulfilling prerequisites for feats. For example a Fighter with a Strength 15 could qualify for Two-Weapon Fighting or Combat Expertise even though both feats require a Dexterity 15 and Intelligence 13 score to obtain, respectfully.
Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum of -4 reduction to the armor check penalty and a +4 bonus to the Dexterity bonus allowed. Additionally a fighter can wear his armor while resting or sleeping and not become fatigued.
Weapon Master (Ex): Beginning at 4th level a fighter gains the Weapon Specialization feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites, for a weapon or group of weapons of his choice. At 8th level the fighter gains the Improved Critical feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites, for a weapon or group of weapons of his choice. At 9th level he gains Greater Weapon Focus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites, for a weapon or a group of weapons of his choice. At 12th level a fighter gains the Greater Weapon Specialization feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites, for a weapon or a group of weapons of his choice.
Heroic Action (Ex): A fighter can assume a lot of different tactics and styles, however their mettle and heroics are best shown through action. Starting at 5th level a fighter choose a style that best fits with their perceived archetype. These selections comes with a unique ability that can be performed at any time. Additional options can be selected at every five levels afterwards (10th, 15th, and 20th)
• Add your shield’s bonus to Reflex saves against area affects. On a failed save reduce the damage taken by 25%
• Add your Dexterity bonus to any ranged damage roll with a weapon (fired or thrown) you make against a target within 30-ft. of you.
• When you miss by 3 or less with a two-handed weapon attack, you still do damage equal to your Strength modifier. This damage cannot transfer any additional effect such as smite or poison or precision-based damage nor any added effects from a weapon’s property or spell.
• When wielding two melee weapons, you may attack with both as a standard action, however you incur a -2 penalty to AC for the duration of the round.
At 10th level or higher:
• When you succeed on a critical hit with a weapon you wield in two-hands, that target must also make a Will save (DC = 10 +1/2 damage + Str modifier) or be stunned for a number of rounds equal to the critical multiplier of the weapon used.
• You can make Attacks of Opportunity against targets within 30-ft. with your ranged weapon.
• When you successfully hit a target with both your main-hand and off-hand weapons, you may initiate any of the following special attacks: Bull-Rush, Disarm, Feint, Sunder, or Trip using either your Strength or Dexterity modifier and add a +4 bonus to the check. If the attempt fails the defender cannot react to your attempt.
• When wielding a shield, you and adjacent allies have ¼ cover. You can also throw the shield up to 20-ft. as a ranged attack. This attack deals 2d10 + Strength or Dexterity modifier damage and has a 75% chance of returning to your hand.
At 20th level:
• After confirming a critical hit the target must succeed on a Fort Save (DC = 10 + ½ damage + Strength or Dexterity modifier) or suffer Constitution damage equal to double the weapon’s critical hit multiplier.
• When wielding a shield a fighter can reflect any single target spell that requires a ranged touch attack. Make an opposed ranged attack and compare the results. If the fighter’s attack was higher the spell is reflected back towards the caster and the fighter remains unaffected.
• Whenever a fighter is the target of a death-effect that a save can end, and fails the saving throw, he can instantly sacrifice 50 hit points to reroll the saving throw. This can be attempted as many times as he wishes, until he saves or drops to below 50 hit points.
Fearless (Ex): The fighter has seen all manner of battlefield horrors, monstrous creatures, and has lived through their share of pain and suffering. By now their courage is resolute. At 5th level the Fighter is now immune to all forms of fear, magical or otherwise.
Commanding Presence (Ex): The fighter’s bravery and courage or infamy has reached significant heights that people recognize him as a vaunted and inspiring figure. Beginning at 13th level the Fighter gain the Leadership feat and adds either his Strength or Charisma modifier, whichever is higher, to his leadership score.
Any Weapon (Ex): The fighter is a master at combat and can seemingly take any mundane item and turn it into a weapon for his use. At 17th level the fighter uses improved weapons without penalty and such weapon’s damage is 1d6. He also gains proficiency with all non-racial exotic weapons.
Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level the Fighter gains DR 5/- while wearing any form of armor.
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Edited by - Diffan on 03 Mar 2017 06:07:53
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2017 : 20:35:52
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Next, to help further the Bonus feats Fighters get access to I took it upon myself to give these feats a bit of a Perk if and when a Fighter selects them. See one of the core issues I have with the 3.5 version is that ANYONE can grab a Fighter bonus feat and use it with the same function and abilities as the Fighter, the only benefit the Fighter gets is there's more for him to choose. I call that a pretty bogus class feature. Clerics get specified Domains that NO one else gets in the Core Books (and outside of a few Prestige Classes and 1 feat, no one can still get without multiclassing); Rogues get sneak attack and rogue talents that no one else gets. Wizards and Sorcerers get familiars. Bards get bardic knowledge and inspiration, etc. The list goes on for what each class gets that's unique unto themselves. The Fighter....nope he just gets more of what everyone else can already choose. So the list below is 90% of the PHB of Fighter Bonus Feats at Fighter can choose and when doing so (irregardless if it's with his fighter bonus feat or his normal allotment of feats through character progression) gets a bonus just because he's a Fighter and should be doing it better. Enjoy!
Bonus Fighter Feats
Fighters have a plethora of bonus feat for which they can draw from. While these feats are mostly general in nature and anyone can take them, the Fighter gets them for free and has an added bonus due to his class.
Blind-Fight [General]
Special
A fighter may select Blind-Fight as one of his fighter bonus feats. In addition, when a fighter selects this feat, increase the percentage of the die roll by 10%. Thus attacking an invisible attacker has a 40% change of missing instead of 50%.
Cleave [General]
Special
A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he can take one 5-ft. step to engage the next target.
Combat Expertise [General]
Special
A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats. In addition, when a fighter selects this feat, the bonus added to his AC through this feat can also be applied to one saving throw of his choice. This benefit lasts until his next action.
Combat Reflexes [General]
Special
A fighter may select Combat Reflexes as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he adds his Wisdom modifier to the attack rolls of any Attack of Opportunity he makes.
Deflect Arrows [General]
Special
A fighter may select Deflect Arrows as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he does not need to have a hand free to use this feat.
Dodge [General]
Special
A fighter may select Dodge as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he can select a new opponent as a free action.
Far Shot [General]
Special
A fighter may select Far Shot as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, double the distance of projectile weapons (instead of 1 ½) and triple the distance of thrown weapons.
Great Cleave [General]
Special
A fighter may select Great Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he can move up to half his speed during the action.
Greater Manyshot [General]
Special
A fighter may select Greater Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, increase the range you can use Manyshot up to 60 feet.
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
Special
A fighter may select Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, remove the penalty of fighting with two weapons altogether.
Improved Bull-Rush [General]
Special
A fighter may select Improved Bull-Rush as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, the fighter adds +4 or ½ his fighter level as a bonus on the opposed Strength check, whichever is higher.
Improved Disarm [General]
Special
A fighter may select Improved Disarm as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, the fighter adds +4 or ½ his fighter level as a bonus on the opposed Strength check, whichever is higher.
Improved Feint [General]
Special
A fighter may select Improved Feint as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he can move up to half his speed while feinting in combat.
Improved Grapple [General]
Special
A fighter may select Improved Grapple as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, the fighter adds +4 or ½ his fighter level as a bonus on the opposed Strength check, whichever is higher.
Improved Initiative [General]
Special
A fighter may select Improved Initiative as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he may roll twice and take the better of the two results.
Improved Overrun [General]
Special
A fighter may select Improved Overrun as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, the fighter adds +4 or ½ his fighter level as a bonus on the opposed Strength check, whichever is higher.
Improved Precise Shot [General]
Special
A fighter may select Improved Precise Shot as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, can increase the percentage of the die roll by 10% when firing at a target with total concealment.
Improved Shield Bash [General]
Special
A fighter may select Improved Shield Bash as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, can improve the damage the shield does by 1 damage die. (1d6<1d8<1d10, etc.)
Improved Sunder [General]
Special
A fighter may select Improved Sunder as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, the fighter adds +4 or ½ his fighter level as a bonus on the opposed Strength check, whichever is higher.
Improved Trip [General]
Special
A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, the fighter adds +4 or ½ his fighter level as a bonus on the opposed Strength check, whichever is higher.
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
Special
A fighter may select Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, reduce the penalty for fighting with two weapons by 1.
Improved Unarmed Strike [General]
Special
A fighter may select Improved Unarmed Strike as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, increase the damage he deals with his unarmed strike to 1d6.
Manyshot [General]
Special
A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, reduce the penalty by 1 for each additional arrow added (so -5 for four arrows).
Mobility [General]
Special
A fighter may select Mobility as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, the fighter adds +4 or ½ his fighter level as a dodge bonus to Armor Class, whichever is higher.
Point Blank Shot [General]
Special
A fighter may select Point Blank Shot as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, increase the bonus on attack and damage rolls by +1 for a total of +2.
Power Attack [General]
Special
A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he can select whether or not to apply the penalty to attack and bonus to damage per attack instead of once per round.
Precise Shot [Genaral]
Special
A fighter may select Precise Shot as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he is considering flanking so long as an ally is opposite the target.
Quick Draw [General]
Special
A fighter may select Quick Draw as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he adds +2 to his Initiative check.
Rapid Reload [General]
Special
A fighter may select Rapid Reload as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when reloading a crossbow.
Rapid Shot [General]
Special
A fighter may select Rapid Shot as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he only takes a -1 penalty when making one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon.
Ride-By Attack [General]
Special
A fighter may select Ride-By Attack as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, the bonus you gain from the Charge action is +4 instead of +2.
Spirited Charge [General]
Special
A fighter may select Spirited Charge as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, all weapons uses deal triple damage not just the lance.
Spring Attack [General]
Special
A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he doesn’t provoke any attacks of opportunity with this movement.
Stunning Fist [General]
Special
A fighter may select Stunning Fist as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he may use his Strength modifier for the saving throw instead of Wisdom.
Two-Weapon Defense [General]
Special
A fighter may select Two-Weapon Defense as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, increase the shield bonus to +2 and +3 when the fighter is fighting defensively or taking the total defense action.
Two-Weapon Fighting [General]
Special
A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, you may treat any one-handed weapon as light when wielded in your off-hand.
Weapon Finesse [General]
Special
A fighter may select Weapon Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
Weapon Focus [General]
Special
A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feat. When a fighter selects this feat, he adds +1 to the damage rolls with this weapon or weapon group. |
Edited by - Diffan on 27 Feb 2017 20:44:30 |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2017 : 17:24:45
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Nice, thanks Diffan! :)
One question about one of the Heroic Actions, this one in particular:
quote:
• Add your Dexterity bonus to any ranged attack roll with a weapon (fired or thrown) you make against a target within 30-ft. of you."
Isn't Dex bonus added to any ranged attack roll anyway? (I know thrown missile weapons tend to, or can, use Strength instead) Was this meant to add Dex bonus to damage as an option? (I suspect that might be the intent, given the 30-ft. range part).
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"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
Edited by - ZeshinX on 02 Mar 2017 17:28:02 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 06:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX
Nice, thanks Diffan! :)
One question about one of the Heroic Actions, this one in particular:
quote:
• Add your Dexterity bonus to any ranged attack roll with a weapon (fired or thrown) you make against a target within 30-ft. of you."
Isn't Dex bonus added to any ranged attack roll anyway? (I know thrown missile weapons tend to, or can, use Strength instead) Was this meant to add Dex bonus to damage as an option? (I suspect that might be the intent, given the 30-ft. range part).
Haha I meant add Dexterity to damage rolls (ala Dead Eye feat). |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2017 : 17:54:21
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| Any other criticisms, suggestions, or ideas? I'm allowing this class into our existing 3.5 game at 14th level. I'll have a better idea on how the balance is too. |
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Bravesteel
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2017 : 02:43:44
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| Interesting, have you looked at Trailblazer? It does a pretty good job of fixing some of the issues with 3.5 without going crazy, ala Pathfinder. |
I loved to read and to write, but then something happened. As I made my way through school, I kept getting handed books to read that didn't excite me and didn't even remotely connect to the realities of my life.- R. A. Salvatore
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2017 : 04:18:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Bravesteel
Interesting, have you looked at Trailblazer? It does a pretty good job of fixing some of the issues with 3.5 without going crazy, ala Pathfinder.
Hm, I have not. What is Trailblazer? |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2022 : 01:50:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Bravesteel
Interesting, have you looked at Trailblazer? It does a pretty good job of fixing some of the issues with 3.5 without going crazy, ala Pathfinder.
Hm, I have not. What is Trailblazer?
Thread necromancy that would shame Szass Tam: I just ordered two rulebooks about Trailblazer. The ETA for delivery is December 27. I will let you know about my knee-jerk reactions. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2022 : 09:17:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Bravesteel
Interesting, have you looked at Trailblazer? It does a pretty good job of fixing some of the issues with 3.5 without going crazy, ala Pathfinder.
Hm, I have not. What is Trailblazer?
Thread necromancy that would shame Szass Tam: I just ordered two rulebooks about Trailblazer. The ETA for delivery is December 27. I will let you know about my knee-jerk reactions.
So I picked up both books in PDF form for Trailblazer from Drive-thru RPG (and under $10!) and thus far I'm actually really impressed with their focus on analysis and really trying to fix some of the glaring issues 3.5 had. Some of the suggestions were 4e fixes, some Pathfinder fixes, and some their own design.
Overall, if I would DM 3.5 again it might possibly involve using both books. I love their take on Reactions and Iterative attacks and the Fighter feels a lot stronger without requiring pseudo-magic a la Maneuvers (which are still awesome, though I see people's hesitation on using them). I also like that all casters use the same casting progression and have more flexibility with their spell usage. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2022 : 19:08:25
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| I do not quite agree with Trailblazer's recommendation to scrap item creation entirely (page 3). I do agree with the assessment that the XP system of item creation is severely flawed. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2022 : 19:14:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Any other criticisms, suggestions, or ideas? I'm allowing this class into our existing 3.5 game at 14th level. I'll have a better idea on how the balance is too.
Diffan, would you allow advanced armor training options for Armor Training 2,3 and 4? Also, for the weapon master features, would it be fair to say group of weapons and not a weapon? This looks like a good variant of PF 1e's weapon training feature. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2023 : 17:06:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I do not quite agree with Trailblazer's recommendation to scrap item creation entirely (page 3). I do agree with the assessment that the XP system of item creation is severely flawed.
I don't think scrapping it entirely is the best solution, especially since they still allow wizards the Scribe Scroll feat at 1st level, allowing them to make essential a magic item. There does tend to be an "arms race" of magic and should the PCs desire significant downtime, it probably would cause some issues.
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Diffan, would you allow advanced armor training options for Armor Training 2,3 and 4? Also, for the weapon master features, would it be fair to say group of weapons and not a weapon? This looks like a good variant of PF 1e's weapon training feature.
Yes, I'd allow advanced options if they were an option. As for Weapon Master, yeah basically I was using the Weapon group rules from Unearthed Arcana. But just a weapon-damage type works good if you want to broaden the feature further. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2023 : 19:33:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I do not quite agree with Trailblazer's recommendation to scrap item creation entirely (page 3). I do agree with the assessment that the XP system of item creation is severely flawed.
As I delve deeper in this supplement, I have to say that I like the design changes here than the full-bore attempt Pathfinder did, especially since I think this compliments 3.5 much better and is easier to incorporate than trying to make things backwards compatible, like Paizo did.
How they handle Multiclassed characters and spellcasting...I'm both surprised and quite pleased. You don't get double the casting power and usage as a normal caster/caster progression, however you use the better of the two's spellcasting stat to determine DC and Bonus spells (still need it for the minimum level spell you can cast) plus there's more diversity in your spell preparation.
For example, I've always liked the odd combo Paladin/Wizard mystic fire knight of Mystra. But now, I prepare a broader mix of divine and arcane spells AND use the slots to power things like Arcane Strike or meta-magic spells!
In this particular case, say our Mystic Fire Knight is a Paladin 4/ Wizard 5. That makes his BMB (base magic bonus) 7 [wiz 5 + 1/2 pal 2]. So with a Int 16, Wis 13 this guy gets (4/5/4/3, DC = 13 + spell level) per day. With some of those spell slots being used to cast Rote spells (cantrips + single target spells with durations of 1 min/level), he'll get them back on a rest of 10 minutes, plus any smites he might use. He'll also be able to prepare up to 4 cantrips, six 1st level spells (two must be arcane), six 2nd level spells (two must be arcane), and three 3rd level spells (all must be arcane). So it could look like this:
3rd (3/rest)— dispel magic, fly, lightning bolt
2nd (4/rest)—bull's strength, cure moderate wounds, hold person (DC 15), lesser restoration, see invisibility, spiritual weapon
1st (5/rest)—divine favor, magic missile, obscuring mist, mount, protection from evil, shield
0 (4/rest)—cure minor wounds, detect magic, ray of frost, resistance
I dunno, that levels of versatility seems pretty cool in 3.5. Not having to prepare a spell as a Metamagic one before hand, being able to mix and match divine spells for when you might need a quick heal. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2023 : 23:46:43
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| I showed the players this alternative fighter class. The players prefer to use Pathfinder 1e enhancements for existing campaigns. They are more willing to try this revision for new campaigns. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2023 : 15:28:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I showed the players this alternative fighter class. The players prefer to use Pathfinder 1e enhancements for existing campaigns. They are more willing to try this revision for new campaigns.
Well I'm glad they like it! PF1e's Fighter is pretty good by comparison and the advanced combat options are just great flavor and icing on the cake.
Now you just got to get them to try 13th Age  |
Edited by - Diffan on 27 Apr 2023 15:30:18 |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2023 : 19:37:29
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Regardless of edition, the question remains "What can fighters do that no other class can do?" If the answer is "Nothing", I would ask is how much more quickly can a fighter do what it does than another class. The idea of any class being made redundant appalls me.
Diffan's "feat efficiency" class feature is an excellent start to address the thorny question, even if opinions differ on the mechanics for any one edition. I don't want warblade to be a fighter fix. It is a class in it's own right.
Scribes, do you have different opinions on the philosophy of designing a fighter class regardless of game rules? |
Edited by - Delnyn on 29 Apr 2023 19:38:57 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2429 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2023 : 04:25:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Regardless of edition, the question remains "What can fighters do that no other class can do?" If the answer is "Nothing", I would ask is how much more quickly can a fighter do what it does than another class. The idea of any class being made redundant appalls me. [. . .]
Scribes, do you have different opinions on the philosophy of designing a fighter class regardless of game rules?
There was specialization thing. Since only warrior group can specialize, and only Fighter proper can specialize further, it's a class-specific advantage.
In AD&D1 there were pretty much 5 profiles for each weapon from "basic" to "grand master". It sounds more complicated than it was, in that each character would use only one profile at a time. So it's much like having 5 different weapons... until a character picks up a weapon of someone with different mastery level, then it's frantic look up time. Later it was unified, but statistics were overhauled crudely (nerfed parry, kept now-meaningless speed factor).
The second question is whether combat is reduced to "hurr, hit him again" dullness.
At combat options (rather than Weeaboo Fightan Magic "solution" of tuning a fighter into another caster), Players Options: Combat & Tactics was great. Its worst problems were caused by the restriction of 100% compatibility and failure on PO core (S&P) side. Without such baggage it could be as good as Warhammer d100 or better, even despite keeping the "padded sumo" mechanics.
The only thing worth keeping from AD&D2 was refusal of "durr, how do you use a stick?" way of resolving weapon skills. So (beyond grandfathered specializations) it had to be all about reducing penalties and which options you can afford. This also solves the first problem: many actions cost Fatigue, most non-standard combat actions incur attack penalties, and the fighters get more of both resources. A wizard can try to do what a fighter just did, but probably will fail, fail again and then get encumbrance (making further attempts even more hopeless).
On the other appendage, if a bunch of people all go "stop that long-legged bastard NOW!" and use their staves/whips/gnarly polearms (some of which get a bonus to this) for Pull/Trip on the same creature, even modest hit chances for each add up to something decent, thus the manoeuvre is far from useless. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 03 May 2023 04:37:17 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2023 : 05:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Regardless of edition, the question remains "What can fighters do that no other class can do?" If the answer is "Nothing", I would ask is how much more quickly can a fighter do what it does than another class. The idea of any class being made redundant appalls me.
...
Scribes, do you have different opinions on the philosophy of designing a fighter class regardless of game rules?
I offer the idea of fighters gaining various forms of specific and general magic resistance as they level. It's always understood that a wizard can blast and trick away but he's in real trouble the moment a fighter finally closes into melee range.
The idea has been abstracted into the rules since the beginning. Fighters have thicker hit points and tougher defenses, they have good saving throws, so they can keep closing the distance while shrugging off a spellcaster's attacks. And, in theory, a wizard must be a middly-/high-level if he's able to cast sustained destruction ... while a fighter at the same level is likely accompanied by a small army which is unlikely to just stand and watch their famous leader get blasted away. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 May 2023 05:12:32 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2023 : 15:20:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Regardless of edition, the question remains "What can fighters do that no other class can do?" If the answer is "Nothing", I would ask is how much more quickly can a fighter do what it does than another class. The idea of any class being made redundant appalls me.
Diffan's "feat efficiency" class feature is an excellent start to address the thorny question, even if opinions differ on the mechanics for any one edition. I don't want warblade to be a fighter fix. It is a class in it's own right.
Scribes, do you have different opinions on the philosophy of designing a fighter class regardless of game rules?
I think there's two schools of thought on this topic:
A) The fighter is the "everyday" man, albeit with a better chance of survival being a PC and all. And because of this "everyday" aspect, he really shouldn't be doing anything else unique. At the same time, he's not hampered by tithes to an organization or church, he's not tied to a specific alignment, he's not tied to a select group of weapons or prohibited in wearing specific armor or materials. *THESE* are what make him unique compared to other classes, the relative freedom of obligation and specification other classes aren't.
B) The fighter *should* be getting something unique that defines his role in the party/group that other classes can't easily replicate just by saying some mumbo-jumbo or praying really hard. Here, we see the latter parts of 2e (Skills and Powers book), all of 3e with feats and alternative class features, all of 4e with powers and feats, and finally 5e with extra attacks, archetypes, and ways to shrug off effects (Indomitable feature).
I prefer type (B) simply because I like doing cool stuff at the table. 4E allowed me to explore interesting options that I probably wouldn't have in other editions and 5E has a simplicity that works well while still giving an individual uniqueness to a PC. I'm currently playing an 11th level Fighter (Cavalier) and I feel pretty bad-ass as I cut through enemies with 3 attacks a turn. I also like the way 13th Age does Maneuvers, as you don't "spend" them in anyway, but use them when the opportunity presents themselves (based on your d20 attack roll, like any natural even hit or a natural odd miss) allows you to adapt to the situation. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2023 : 22:20:20
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| Would the scribes consider unarmed combat a fighter feature as opposed to a monk? |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2023 : 17:35:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Would the scribes consider unarmed combat a fighter feature as opposed to a monk?
Just unarmed combat? Yes! Honestly I think all Fighters should be proficient in Unarmed combat, especially since fighting with weapons is just an extension of fighting with your fists in terms of body mechanics. Now, Monks should get way better in focusing their Ki to make their unarmed strikes better whereas a Fighter will almost always look for any type of weapon as preferable to fist fighting. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2023 : 21:16:38
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Another issue is letting fighters be good if not great at a non-combat role. I particularly appreciate this revision have more skill points with an expanded class skill list.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2023 : 15:19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Another issue is letting fighters be good if not great at a non-combat role. I particularly appreciate this revision have more skill points with an expanded class skill list.
Exactly! I'm not entirely sure why they didn't think to give Fighters (basically the D&D equivalent of trained soldiers) access to skills like Spot and Listen since they're both highly valuable to guarding/protecting things and looking out for threats? But that's one of the reason they're now listed under their trained skills and why I increased their skill points per level to 4 instead of 2. Not to mention that most classes in the late 2006-2007 era got 4+Int per level because I feel it was a much needed course correction within the engine of the game. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2024 : 01:38:33
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| While I prefer Trailblazer's revision of full attacks, my band-aid solution is to have Weapon Focus (all classes not just fighters) remove penalties for iterative attacks by up to -5. Greater Weapon Focus would remove iterative attack penalties by up to -10. A fighter's "feat efficiency" for Weapon Focus would be along the lines of a natural 1 attack roll is treated as a natural 2. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2024 : 02:04:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
While I prefer Trailblazer's revision of full attacks, my band-aid solution is to have Weapon Focus (all classes not just fighters) remove penalties for iterative attacks by up to -5. Greater Weapon Focus would remove iterative attack penalties by up to -10. A fighter's "feat efficiency" for Weapon Focus would be along the lines of a natural 1 attack roll is treated as a natural 2.
Oh, I like that! It also gives someone incentive to take these feats as they're overall rather 'meh' and too specific. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2024 : 21:03:17
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| I take seriously the gap between spellcasters and non-spellcasters. That is one point of agreement about 4e mechanics. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4442 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2024 : 03:23:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I take seriously the gap between spellcasters and non-spellcasters. That is one point of agreement about 4e mechanics.
I think it's a pretty serious issue in D&D overall, but directly impacts 3.5 mechanics the most. 4e took a position, and while I agree with that position, a lot of others didn't. 5e tried a different approach and I think it hit a decent middle-ground. |
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Topic |
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Fighter Class (v3.5) revision
