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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
187 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Mar 2024 : 14:42:45
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I think a lot of the images in the discussion no longer exist, or are in Dropboxes that expired some time ago.
I have tried to pick up the cartographic gauntlet a little bit after the numerous early worthies, with my recent Nations of the Forgotten Realms series (plus maps of every continent, plus the entire planet) here. My maps are heavily influenced by the official Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas CD-ROM from 1999.
I believe - someone can correct me on this - that "Handsome Rob" is now doing official cartography for both Pathfinder and also some of the DM's Guild Forgotten Realms material, so a lot of his earlier, unofficial work got scrubbed from the Internet. As Markustay points out above, a lot of his maps were also scrubbed due to him using an art style that was similar-ish to the offical 3E maps, which Wizards of the Coast were not so keen on. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11806 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2024 : 20:15:20
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| Just wanted to say to you Werthead, from having tried to make a similar map of the world inside of campaign cartographer, I can appreciate your dedication. I'm definitely not a good map maker. BTW, I also appreciate your question on your world map about Arandron. That's what I suspect as well is "Arandron". I would like to get some definitives on that from Ed. Granted, at the same time... what one group calls Arandon others call something else. That's why I've taken to calling the "northern huge continent part of Maztica" .... by the name of "the place that Faerunians call Anchorome". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
187 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2024 : 23:34:23
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I have Campaign Cartographer 3 but that thing is nuts, I've never gotten my head around it. The only reason I have it is because it's compatible with the maps from the Interactive Atlas and it allows me to up-res them to a higher standard and then serve as a basis for new maps.
That said, having had some communication with the people who made the FRIA over the years, I know it has a lot of problems and errors resulting from the timeframe they had to make it. I have been considering going back to the 1E/2E base maps and doing a completely new ultra-map based on the original source material, but that would be excessively time-consuming. If I had better skills I'd also look at creating the "Google Toril" idea someone mentioned before, but that seems daunting as well. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11806 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2024 : 15:01:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
I have Campaign Cartographer 3 but that thing is nuts, I've never gotten my head around it. The only reason I have it is because it's compatible with the maps from the Interactive Atlas and it allows me to up-res them to a higher standard and then serve as a basis for new maps.
That said, having had some communication with the people who made the FRIA over the years, I know it has a lot of problems and errors resulting from the timeframe they had to make it. I have been considering going back to the 1E/2E base maps and doing a completely new ultra-map based on the original source material, but that would be excessively time-consuming. If I had better skills I'd also look at creating the "Google Toril" idea someone mentioned before, but that seems daunting as well.
Yeah, I have CC3+ as well, and I spent a lot of time trying to make maps for my own versions of Anchorome/Maztica/Lopango/Katashaka using it. They were very pretty. But what I found is that once I got a bunch of icons for forests, cities, etc... basically the program was crashing or taking so long to do updates that it became fruitless (even though the file sizes were relatively minimal, guessing because it was using pointers or something to the icons). I then played with the idea of using the icons from that program in drawing programs, but realized that's against the rules, especially if you want to use it in anything you'd publicly share. I then THOUGHT it wouldn't be hard to make my own icons... and yeah, I'm no artist and it takes a lot longer than I would have thought. All of this to say ... I've gained an appreciation for good map makers as I've begun to slowly learn the issues. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
187 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2024 : 18:13:38
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I think they basically need a modern CC4, but they've resisted doing that, presumably for budget reasons.
It's a shame but other programmes (Inkarnate or Wonderdraft) are much easier to use, even if they're not as powerful or customisable. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
187 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2024 : 21:53:41
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So I assembled a grand collection of all maps from the OG products I have in PDF form (which is almost all of them, and some faffing around with scans of my physical collection) to create an original megamap of Faerun using the highest-scaled maps possible, starting from 1E and moving forwards.
This started off promisingly. The Old Grey Box maps fully align with near-perfect precision with the Savage Frontier, Empires of the Sands and Bloodstone Lands maps, to the point that all of these feel like cut-offs from a larger map someone created (presumably a 1"=30 miles scale map someone drew based on Ed's original hand-drawn map), with even individual mountains being the same across the overlaps.
However, the Dream of the Red Wizards map is notably out of keeping with the rest, with the sections where it overlaps the Bloodstone Lands maps not quite cohering (not to mention, the cities on both maps in Impiltur are all over the place, with several cities located on different parts of the coast). It feels like it's about 5% off in size, but upping and lowering the size doesn't line things up correctly at all. The best-case approach was to ignore the overlapping area and get the edges to align and cut off the overlap. Even this is imperfect but it's possible to make it work.
The Old Empires map is then completely out of whack with the Dreams of the Red Wizards map (and, of course, with no features in common, it's impossible to determine if it is in keeping with the rest of the continent map) which causes headaches (and wow, Tharsult and Alaor's shapes change on every single map that they made back then).
The Great Glacier map then satisfyingly aligns almost 100% with the Bloodstone Lands map, except for a slight variance in scale.
I'll keep cracking at this and then try the same thing with the 2E maps and see if it's possible to get a good idea of a large-scale map of the continent using the OG sources. I certainly have vastly more respect now for the FRIA team (and that respect was a lot in the first place) who had to make a lot of judgement calls in getting these sources to work.
Ed seems to mention the Karen Wynn Fonstad map a lot from the (non-interactive) Forgotten Realms Atlas, so I wonder if he regards that as a better reference option. Hmm. |
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Blaidd31204
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2024 : 22:15:24
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| Outstanding! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2024 : 01:27:00
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Ed has always deferred to the paper FR Atlas product.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Aleksander Rajewski
Acolyte
Poland
1 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2024 : 20:30:52
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| Does anybody still have this tiff of toril map (from HandsomeRob) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11806 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2024 : 15:13:07
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| I have the tif and my JPG conversion. The problem just becomes I don't OWN it. If Handsome Rob ever gave an option to share it, I have no problem doing so. I will say that personally I've taken to heavily changing (well, entirely changing) what he did with Katashaka, as it reminded me WAAAYYY too much of Africa in shape and layout. I have tried to do a subset map of Anchorome, Maztica, Lopango, Katashaka in relation to the sword coast edge, Nimbral, Lantan, Evermeet, Moonshaes, etc... where I make detailed information on my maps and on tangential references to clarity sakes on the others. The one thing that doing that did for me is get a LOT of respect for people making these maps.... and made me realize that without a solid base to work from that people edit between editions (which won't happen due to the nature of software), we'll always end up with "shifts". For me and my gameplay, that's not a big deal, as the maps are more generally used to give an idea of "what's roughly close to what", and I just go with a real assumption that all cartography work in the realms is NOT being done with a piece of software... but rather mortals using "compasses" and "pencils" and "erasers" .... and thus ALL maps are skewed in some respect. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2024 : 17:41:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
and I just go with a real assumption that all cartography work in the realms is NOT being done with a piece of software... but rather mortals using "compasses" and "pencils" and "erasers" .... and thus ALL maps are skewed in some respect.
Pencils, erasers and arbitrary-altitude scrying.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11806 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2024 : 14:35:26
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
and I just go with a real assumption that all cartography work in the realms is NOT being done with a piece of software... but rather mortals using "compasses" and "pencils" and "erasers" .... and thus ALL maps are skewed in some respect.
Pencils, erasers and arbitrary-altitude scrying.
Or flights in a spelljammer or skyship.
Add into this fact that we're given in the old gray box hex square overlays to figure out distance for things, and yet we're also given a mercatur projection map ...... so basically everything the farther north you go should in theory be more and more "skewed". If you look at the rotating world view in the FRIA you'll see this reflected with the shapes of the lands nearing the poles, as they barely look like the "flat" shapes.
Which is why the maps that I create have this note added by "the makers" of the maps
Luneiran Cartographer's Guild Map of Anchorome, Maztica, and the Lopango Peninsula Circa 1488 DR
This and other geographical documents produced by the United Tharchs of Toril in the years just following the Second Sundering have been produced as quickly as possible in order to maintain a working map of Toril as it stands today. Given the need for speed, worries of exacting scale have been dropped in favor of a general locale overview. Moreover, the sudden appearances of Towns and Forests over the last several years has at times made keeping this document up to date .... bothersome.... It should be noted that cartographers have been given considerable expense by Zulkir Mythrella'a of the Tharch of Luneira to render these maps from several of her quads in orbit. Only one such cartographer, a noted Leiran, had to be slain in order to curtail the grandiose blandishments which would be unbelievable to outsiders.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Sep 2024 14:40:06 |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
187 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2024 : 22:32:23
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After a lot of image reduction and format-massaging, I was able to get the combined 1E megamap onto a filehosting site.
So this is a collection of all the original 1"=30 mile-scaled maps from 1E (and a couple from the 2E crossover period), with the orange backdrops. The goal here was to create a combined map to act as a "back to basics" for a possible future super-accurate-to-the-original-intentions map. The project started out well but kinda fell apart when I reached the maps of the Unapproachable East and Old Empires and encountered scaling inconsistencies and problems (which were hugely exaggerated by the addition of the Shining South map). I could have pressed on by adding the later 2E map from the Vilhon Reach expansion and the map of Chult from the Jungles of Chult expansion, but the inability to resolve the other scaling issues got a bit depressing. Looking at it with a few months' separation though, it doesn't look too bad. Remove the Shining South map - which I suspect were more properly meant to fit with the larger 1"=90 miles maps from the campaign setting boxes rather than the smaller maps - and the inconsistencies become a lot more bearable.
I remain very impressed by how almost all the other maps fit together so well. The 1E cartographers knew their business (and the 2E maps mostly just fit right over these perfectly, and even the 5E map of the Sword Coast aligns perfectly with both the 1E and 2E maps). |
Edited by - Werthead on 12 Sep 2024 22:33:58 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2024 : 02:18:17
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Appreciate your time and work. Would love the Chult and Vilhon ones in it though. My OCD is twitching looking at those gaps!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
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The Director
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2024 : 14:04:52
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I have been working on a very hi-res map of Toril. Not Google Earth, Toril. But a map image at a monstrous scale. The goal of it is to fill out the map of the realms, including little talked-about lands, like Arandron, Thuin, Osse, Katashaka, and the Islands in between those last two.
While that will be homebrew the Canon Areas, Faerun, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Laerakond, Maztica, will only feature Locations can can be Sourced.
If a location cannot be sourced, it does not go on the map. Time for the map is 1490s, but I am not changing other canon continents from their last appearance unless I can source it.
Here is a link to the spreadsheet of locations so far.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TU6iYE0kOeH9w8FZd4TpblDyB4kuSkXGsws2W4_w5ck/edit?usp=sharing
HandsomeRob and Markustay inspired such a project. I give regular updates on Ed's Discord Server under the same Username as here.
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https://imgur.com/a/TOSNCWM
Here are some screenshots!
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When will it be done? Well, it's already been 18 months in the making. I am not going to give a hard deadline on it, but I am plugging away at it. |
Edited by - The Director on 21 Sep 2024 14:06:15 |
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Ultimate high-resolution map of Toril
