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NyluenathaStareyes
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
 Posted - 18 May 2024 : 09:35:14
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Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I get bored quickly, so I like to talk there as well.  But as you'll notice sooner or later, I prefer a more modern take in fantasy, that may be at odds with people who likes the traditional D&D lore sometimes, lol
Noted!  I love the lore, but I also love advancing the vibrancy of the realms. Despite my initial disgruntlement with the Spellplague, I kinda liked it once I got into the novels about all the freaky new places that were in the Realms. Get weird, I'm into it!
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Originally posted by Zeromaru X
If you have access to the Psionic Power sourcebook, it has a story about how bad can be to have people with psionic powers for the defense of a kingdom. Page 6 has the tale of a dragonborn city that fell to an orc attack because the dragonborn "ardents" (empaths) got depressed after a princess died and their sadness "infected" the other dragonborn leaders and soldiers, making them fail against a force they would have defeated in normal circumstances.
Perhaps something similar happened to Jhaamdaath...
The most emo of the emo boys. Take down the whole kingdom with your sadness. I just read it haha...dang. Those sadbois failing Arkhosia, no bueno. Turn that frown upside down or else you doom the kingdom! No big.
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Originally posted by Zeromaru X
You got me curious here.
EDIT:
I read about Dinnilith. While it's true that the place vanished during the catastrophe, I doubt it survived it. Lost Empires of Faerūn says the place is full of an undead thing that reminds me of the mist of Shadar Logoth (from the Wheel of Time), and the place may not even be physical, but a psychic impression or something.
Ah, well that tiny little thread gets snipped. Not to worry, perhaps the Eminence of Araunt somehow made contact...I imagine there are a fair number of portals in that area. |
Realms fan for life! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2024 : 20:42:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Because Ao knew this convergence of worlds would happen. He required gods to go to Abeir to protect mortals.
You destroyed my immersion here, sleyvas. The Second Sundering that Ao started killed A LOT of mortals between all the wars, natural catastrophes and magical chaos Ao unleashed on the world, just for him to "fix" things. I don't believe he care for mortals at all.
I'm also not much of a fan of the idea of creating a Weave on Abeir. Leave that world away from Mystra's tyrannical monopoly of magic,
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So that the people that went to Abeir aren't just prey for the dragon overlords, armies of primordial lords, abolethic sovereignty, etc..
Why do you have to spoil all the fun? Dragons deserve to have a good time, too
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Consequently, what if Cyric were in fact trapped in there after the spellplague as well?
This idea is even less appealing to me than having a Weave on Abeir, lol I prefer Cyric as a poser who was stripped of power and is not even demigod-level now.
Not to spoil the fun, but if this Erkalla place is part of the Nine Hells, then the idea may not work, as per The Devil You Know, Abeir is completely cut off of the Nine Hells, and the place has no influence in Abeir. That's why Fiendish Warlocks (ie.Farideh) and even proper devils (Lorcan) were completely powerless in Abeir, and why the Staff of Azuth was hidden there, so Asmodeus could not find it.
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Dumuzi eh? Interesting choice Erin made then with the name of Dumuzi Kepeshmolik as the emissary of Enlil in Tymanther.
Curiously enough, dragonborn names are from many Middle East cultures. Even before Erin Evans took the dragonborn under her wing, there are names like Medrash and Balasar (Jew), Tarhun (an Hittite god), Abraxus (obviously, the gnostic being), and the like.
On the Ao "causing the death of the mortals", the part that I would stress here that maybe wasn't apparent. I don't view Ao as having the control here. He knows that the world convergence is coming. He likely has a good idea of when it will occur. But he doesn't CAUSE it. I'm very much of the idea that he also didn't necessarily "create" Abeir so much as "put it to use". He also may not have much CONTROL in Abeir (i.e. he's very glad that the primordials are over there where they can't get to him ... like they almost did during the first Sundering). I'm very in favor of limiting Ao's power. So, he knows that these mortals will be shifting to Abeir. He knows he can't save them all. He knows he has an excess of gods that serve him.... and he's not afraid to send them over and possibly die in order to protect these mortals. They may even gain him a foothold there or eliminate some threats.
On the making of a weave... I don't mean "making Mystra in power and control"... I mean the "weave" in the form that its found on most other worlds... a place where regular magic can be used and the concept of a wizard may exist.... but these self same wizards may have problems if they LEAVE these areas. To note, this essentially is putting "the weave" of Abeir in the hands of a large number of different "gods of magic", and not one specific being. It would more or less resemble a power grid, with this power grid only being extended near these settlements of Torilians.
In some ways this concept would somewhat resemble the same idea as the Priests ruleset, except that the priests concept is only for memorizing spells.... these guys would have to transport their power source with them if they left these areas.
On the concept of the Pit of Maleficence having "Erkalla" at its "bottom". The statement in canon lore is that people THINK a portal to the hells lies at the bottom. I posit... maybe its different... that it would be a way to link in a link to the "Underworld" divine domain of the Babylonian Pantheon (which the Untheric people absorbed deities of this pantheon into their own, in the forms of at least Ramman and Ishtar) ... and I only mentioned that particular place because there's a reference to Cyric, that city, and Loviatar in the 2nd edition Complete Necromancer's Handbook. But, and "Underworld" ruled by various gods of death over time which ALSO has a history of people going there and "being unable to return".... very much could be a place where powerful beings get imprisoned much like Shattered Night did with vestiges.
The idea would be that city of Peleverai in the Shaar went to Abeir. The undercity of Peleverai has the Pit of Maleficence. The Pit of Maleficence contains the "path" / "portal" or whatever to Erkalla. Erkalla itself could be just an underdark cavern... or it could be a place on the other side of a portal. But then the idea would be that IT has a planar tear onto shattered night, and it was in shattered night that Gargauth had been entrapped/imprisoned as a vestige until he got released by the Cult of the Dragon.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2024 : 04:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the Ao "causing the death of the mortals", the part that I would stress here that maybe wasn't apparent. I don't view Ao as having the control here. He knows that the world convergence is coming. He likely has a good idea of when it will occur. But he doesn't CAUSE it. I'm very much of the idea that he also didn't necessarily "create" Abeir so much as "put it to use". He also may not have much CONTROL in Abeir (i.e. he's very glad that the primordials are over there where they can't get to him ... like they almost did during the first Sundering). I'm very in favor of limiting Ao's power. So, he knows that these mortals will be shifting to Abeir. He knows he can't save them all. He knows he has an excess of gods that serve him.... and he's not afraid to send them over and possibly die in order to protect these mortals. They may even gain him a foothold there or eliminate some threats.
You know, I can buy the idea of Ao being the not all powerful being they want us to believe, however, it's hard to believe he was not in control of the Second Sundering when the event was so selective in what returned, specially when the things that stayed required the active participation of entities way less powerful than Ao was during the ToT (like, worship-less Enlil making Tymanther to stay).
I also don't believe Ao cares at all for mortals, but that's my belief, lol. He seems to not even regard them at all in official materials (save for these weird Elminster novels), where he seems to care more for the gods.
I also like the idea that Ao didn't created Abeir, specially after we discovered that the geography doesn't match with what we know of ancient Toril. It makes me wonder why the orbits of Toril and Abeir intersect, tho...
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On the making of a weave... I don't mean "making Mystra in power and control"...
Oh, but by putting all of Mystra's subordinates in control, you're given her ALL the control, lol.
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I mean the "weave" in the form that its found on most other worlds... a place where regular magic can be used and the concept of a wizard may exist...
I don't know. I feel it's like allowing regular clerics to exist in Dark Sun. You change one of the key concepts of this world, and with it the feeling of the setting. Just like there are no clerics in Dark Sun, the idea is that Abeir has no wizards. And yeah, you're giving them "limitations" (thought, there is really no limitation when they can carry their power source to whatever place they go), but still changes the feeling of the setting IMO.
Yeah, that would mean that poor Big Name NPC wizard is going to be an ingredient on a dragon's dinner because the setting is against him, but the same would happen if Big Name NPC cleric goes to Athas, he is going to become a practice target for the Templars. That's their fault for going to places they are not supposed to be, lol
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The idea would be that city of Peleverai in the Shaar went to Abeir. The undercity of Peleverai has the Pit of Maleficence. The Pit of Maleficence contains the "path" / "portal" or whatever to Erkalla. Erkalla itself could be just an underdark cavern... or it could be a place on the other side of a portal. But then the idea would be that IT has a planar tear onto shattered night, and it was in shattered night that Gargauth had been entrapped/imprisoned as a vestige until he got released by the Cult of the Dragon.
That would make sense... I'm just saying that canonically (as in, in a published product), it has been said that Abeir is closed to the Outer Planes. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2024 : 20:16:15
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Yes, Abeir is closed off... until the spellplague apparently. So, the idea is "city of Peleverai along with Pit of Maleficence beneath it" transfers to Abeir... and thereby DRAGS over this planar tear with it.
The more I think on it though.... I think I actually like the idea that the bottom of the pit opens onto Erkalla... but Erkalla being a city in the Underdark which has the planar tear (and heck.... as long as we have the freedom to do it... maybe it has OTHER portals as well... it could be fun to make this city and tie it to the babylonian or Untheric pantheons. It may have even been where Nergal actually resided, since both he and Ereshkigal were said to rule the city... so if they had manifestations stuck on Toril they may have made a prime version of their underworld. Maybe they even made it from some even older city which had the planar tear that they found. Could be fun to make this history. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2024 : 20:42:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the Ao "causing the death of the mortals", the part that I would stress here that maybe wasn't apparent. I don't view Ao as having the control here. He knows that the world convergence is coming. He likely has a good idea of when it will occur. But he doesn't CAUSE it. I'm very much of the idea that he also didn't necessarily "create" Abeir so much as "put it to use". He also may not have much CONTROL in Abeir (i.e. he's very glad that the primordials are over there where they can't get to him ... like they almost did during the first Sundering). I'm very in favor of limiting Ao's power. So, he knows that these mortals will be shifting to Abeir. He knows he can't save them all. He knows he has an excess of gods that serve him.... and he's not afraid to send them over and possibly die in order to protect these mortals. They may even gain him a foothold there or eliminate some threats.
You know, I can buy the idea of Ao being the not all powerful being they want us to believe, however, it's hard to believe he was not in control of the Second Sundering when the event was so selective in what returned, specially when the things that stayed required the active participation of entities way less powerful than Ao was during the ToT (like, worship-less Enlil making Tymanther to stay).
I also don't believe Ao cares at all for mortals, but that's my belief, lol. He seems to not even regard them at all in official materials (save for these weird Elminster novels), where he seems to care more for the gods.
I also like the idea that Ao didn't created Abeir, specially after we discovered that the geography doesn't match with what we know of ancient Toril. It makes me wonder why the orbits of Toril and Abeir intersect, tho...
Interested in discussing this MORE just because I think developing a story helps. That's what this is all about.
Here's kind of the way I see it.... we need bees .... so we care if bees are dying .... but in general, I'm not going around to make sure that noone kills a bee. If I can stop some fool from stomping a beehive without much effort... I will. Or, I might just let the bees sting the fool, because even though they are little... they can still make things hurt.
We are "bees" to Ao. We keep the world alive, pollinating things and making honey. In a not-so-great comparison, the gods are the "beekeepers" who get "honey"/"faith" from the "bees". Ao takes honey/faith from the gods, but he also harvests the "crops" that populate the world as a result of the bees efforts.
Now, how much control he may have had over the Spellplague/ Second Sundering... debatable... but once lands from Abeir have come INTO Toril... he may have had a lot more control for it leaving. Basically, I view the spellplague as much more "uncontrolled" to SOME degree... and the Second Sundering was much less invasive and controlled. So, he may have been fine with letting certain lands stay in Abeir.
Ao may have even empowered some "vestiges" that may have been getting restored on Abeir... i.e. for all we know, Enlil was being restored on Abeir. One of the things that I envision with the Planar Tear/"Shattered Night" thing is that some deities that supposedly "left" ..... may have been imprisoned as vestiges by someone like Gilgeam. Or in other words.... the story is told by the victors and may not be the truth.... so what's the true story about what happened to the Untheric gods that Gilgeam "kicked out" of Unther? Why did Gilgeam not let the body of the god Nergal get interred in Unther and instead made a tomb get created way off in the lands held by the Nar? For instance, was the manifestation of Gilgeam that went "bad" .... was he Gilgeam? Was there a being that was formerly entrapped as a vestige instead in control of his body? This idea of vestiges/planar tears/Shattered Night can open up a lot of story ideas. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 23 May 2024 23:03:09 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2024 : 22:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
On the making of a weave... I don't mean "making Mystra in power and control"...
Oh, but by putting all of Mystra's subordinates in control, you're given her ALL the control, lol.
quote:
I mean the "weave" in the form that its found on most other worlds... a place where regular magic can be used and the concept of a wizard may exist...
I don't know. I feel it's like allowing regular clerics to exist in Dark Sun. You change one of the key concepts of this world, and with it the feeling of the setting. Just like there are no clerics in Dark Sun, the idea is that Abeir has no wizards. And yeah, you're giving them "limitations" (thought, there is really no limitation when they can carry their power source to whatever place they go), but still changes the feeling of the setting IMO.
Yeah, that would mean that poor Big Name NPC wizard is going to be an ingredient on a dragon's dinner because the setting is against him, but the same would happen if Big Name NPC cleric goes to Athas, he is going to become a practice target for the Templars. That's their fault for going to places they are not supposed to be, lol
These "gods of magic" MAY have been helping to restore Mystra... or they may NOT have been doing so. I mean that on an individual basis. For instance, Deneir TECHNICALLY reports to Oghma... and Oghma wasn't in Abeir. Leira didn't TECHNICALLY report to anyone. Velsharoon definitely had proven that he was willing to seek power however he saw fit. Talos as Malyk (god of wild and destructive magics) actually opposed Mystra. Finder Wyvernspur as a god of bardic magic to a degree also didn't serve Mystra. Karsus had specifically tried to take her power. Now Azuth, Savras, and possibly Auppenser... these can possibly be seen as servants.
Now, I personally don't mind that idea of these gods helping to restore her enough to make magic a bit more stable (maybe not Talos/Malyk)... but technically THAT doesn't need to be detailed as these deities would have their own reasons to want mortals to have access to magic. Also... going back to that "Priests" dm's guild product.. a priest can "pray" at any idol valid for their pantheon .... so I can see these gods agreeing that "our weave anchors shall be available to all"... much like cell phone carriers allowing roaming. But possibly, if X gods weave anchor gets used, then X god gets faith energy.... so it behooves the gods themselves to get these weave anchors spread. Heck, for all we know, these gods were using Mystra's corpse to get things started and they "unintentionally" restore her enough that she can return to Toril... before they can turn on her and kill her again. Just a thought.
Now, regarding it making the world different... I have no defense here, but I also don't see a need. If one wants a world where spellcasters are less powerful, there are numerous things we CAN do... maybe the weave anchors are "faulty" ... maybe they "drain quickly"... maybe they can only support spells of certain levels based on the quality of the weave anchor. With the idea of the portable anchors/batteries, very much all of the above can be true (hell, Malyk may be offering "cheap" anchor/batteries that are prone to wild magic). The main thing though is to establish what we think are good ideas, and then bounce them about with others.... and that's what I think these discussions are helping with.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2024 : 03:45:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yes, Abeir is closed off... until the spellplague apparently. So, the idea is "city of Peleverai along with Pit of Maleficence beneath it" transfers to Abeir... and thereby DRAGS over this planar tear with it.
Abeir being isolated from the Outer Planes is still a thing by the time of the Second Sundering. After all, this element is a plot point of The Devil You Know: the reason Asmodeus couldn't find the staff of Azuth was because it was hidden on Abeir.
Btw, isn't Nergal dead in D&D lore? I remember he is one of the deities listed as "Dead" in On Hallowed Ground.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Interested in discussing this MORE just because I think developing a story helps. That's what this is all about.
Here's kind of the way I see it.... we need bees ....
Interesting analogy. It still leaves too much stuff in the air. Why Ao didn't did stuff to mitigate the death of so many bees in the SS? Sure, he may have not been in full control of the situation (though I really doubt it), but he could have mitigated things.
And I mean, mitigating damage in Toril, if we follow your idea of Ao suddenly caring about the mortals of Abeir, something he didn't did in like, millenia.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Now, how much control he may have had over the Spellplague/ Second Sundering...
He had no control at all during the Spellplague, that's pretty obvious. And confirmed by the fact that he had to start (or take advantage of, if we follow your idea) the Second Sundering to "fix" all the damage done by the Spellplague.
As for the Second Sundering, the official lore is that he started it, so he may have been in full control. Even if we follow your idea that he didn't started the SS, he still used it to "fix" stuff in Toril and Abeir, which confirms he had a lot of control over this phenomenon.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Heck, for all we know, these gods were using Mystra's corpse to get things started and they "unintentionally" restore her enough that she can return to Toril...
A dreadful thought.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Now, regarding it making the world different... I have no defense here, but I also don't see a need. If one wants a world where spellcasters are less powerful,
My issue is not about the power of the spellcasters (there can be powerful sorcerers in Abeir following the standard lore), but more about the feeling of the setting. That's why I used Dark Sun as an example. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2024 : 20:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yes, Abeir is closed off... until the spellplague apparently. So, the idea is "city of Peleverai along with Pit of Maleficence beneath it" transfers to Abeir... and thereby DRAGS over this planar tear with it.
Abeir being isolated from the Outer Planes is still a thing by the time of the Second Sundering. After all, this element is a plot point of The Devil You Know: the reason Asmodeus couldn't find the staff of Azuth was because it was hidden on Abeir.
Btw, isn't Nergal dead in D&D lore? I remember he is one of the deities listed as "Dead" in On Hallowed Ground.
Ah... very much good point in that I didn't think about ALL the planar shifts. The abyss was no longer in the outer planes, but rather attaching to the elemental chaos... so the inner planes. So, that can explain demonic access to Abeir starting then. Still doesn't affect the idea of a planar tear in a city that transfers maintaining that access to shattered night (it would to the hells mind you or some other place still in the). To be clear, shattered night is intended to be "a nothing place"... the place where vestiges go (and many vestiges were deities). Its not inner plane. Its not outer plane. It MIGHT be far realm. It MIGHT be where Tharizdun is trapped. Its not a place that anyone understands how to travel to, and it seems to possess the "sentience" of beings that are gone... and if a binder provides his body/mind as a conduit to these vestiges, they may share his senses to once again "feel" the real world and "somewhat exist".
On Nergal being dead... depends on the setting, but he definitely is dead in FR pre-spellplague. But he was a manifestation in FR, not tied to the outer planes. His death in FR would have zero impact elsewhere, and his revival in FR could occur even if he were dead elsewhere. He definitely COULD be a vestige.
Some notes below on Nergal since you asked (from Lost Empires of faerun), in particular to note that Nergal wasn't buried in Unther like every other Untheric deity.... his body was sent way up north near Narfell, the Rawlinswood, Dun-Tharos, etc..... Now, WHY did Gilgeam specifically not bury THIS god in his homeland?
-1071 DR The orc god Gruumsh kills the Mulhorandi deity Ra in the first known deicide. The Untheric gods Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu are also slain by orc deities.
THE STONE OF KEST
In the northern foothills of the Dragonsword Mountains stands a forgotten monument that was once known as the Stone of Kest. This obelisk stands better than 60 feet tall, and though it is somewhat weathered, the tale carved into its four surfaces is still legible. The Stone of Kest records the story of the Orcgate Warsin particular, the roles of various Mulhorandi deities and the deaths of Untheric gods such as Nergal and Marduk. The stone is scribed in an archaic form of Mulhorandi rendered in hieroglyphs (Decipher Script DC 25).
GREAT BARROW
Just off the Great Road, near the southernmost portion of the Rawlinswood in the Great Dale, lies the Great Barrow, a massive burial mound ringed by numerous smaller mounds. The Great Barrow was built in the heady days of the First Untheric Empire as a tomb for the slain Untheric god Nergal. Gilgeam oversaw the gods lavish burial and sealed Nergals still-living family and servants inside the lesser tombs surrounding that of the deity. Once all the tombs had been buried under earthen hills, Gilgeam slaughtered the builders, raised them as undead crypt things, and set them to guard Nergal and his family.
Travelers in the area of the Great Barrow often report encountering skeletal undead that choke and gasp as if desperately trying to breathe. Whether these creatures are Gilgeams appointed crypt-things or the restless undead remnants of Nergals family remains a mystery.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 29 May 2024 20:19:56 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2024 : 14:50:39
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Some notes that might be useful to add to the FR Wiki based upon Ed's recent youtube presentation on Halruaa and what happened to it in Abeir. I note that a lot of it already has been put in the wiki, but "rewriting" this has helped me cement some facts in my head. The main facts that I note in the below are about WHERE and WHEN Halruaa appeared in Abeir and what were the effects on them as a country (i.e. little water, no seacoast, in a wintry land instead of a hot land, etc...).
Halruaan elders "plane shifted a a force web cradled majority of the non-mountainous lands of the land of magic into the wild alpine uplands of Shyr". Where they landed, it was colder, the air was thinner, and water was scarce. Saltwater and a seacoast became things of the past (to note, the "visual" they showed showed a Halruaa transferring with some mountains still on its exterior, but with these mountains essentially blocking them in from a seacoast). Most of their buildings and all of their roads were shattered. They found themselves in a region of wild herds of marauding predators, wyverns, perytons, and giant bats that were largely destroyed by their arrival, not in the lap of some populous sentient realm that might have made war on them and sought to enslave them. That arrival was in the Abeiran spring not in midwinter (note: check date of spellplague on Toril to see if it was in spring).
The creation of a "force web" by a large number of Halruaan elders, that then resulted in the death OR mental incapacity of 8 in 10 of their spellcasting capable populace, is known as "the Great Sacrifice". Halruaans believe that Azuth himself bolstered this magical transfer and was himself seared and diminished as a result.
The Force web spells were from the ancient Netherese archwizard "Lady Sheive Marandral" and were used by her to create "temporary flying cradles for netherese buildings rather than permanent flying cities". It required the placement of "spell nodes" within the surface ground of Halruaa to create something akin to a spider web of force surrounding the country similar in some ways to a mythal. So in essence, they were turning Halruaa's immediate surface area into something akin to a mass of flying earth. This transfer destroyed most of Halruaa's bridges which were lighter through the use of levitation spells.
The Halruaa of today is much less populous and more rural (which says something as it was already very rural). It has no army, but has militias armed with thunderwave, magic missile, and lightning bold wands. It has archlords, reclusive elders of both genders, who live in mountain caverns where they stockpile spellbooks and magic items, including automatons that can defend the realm if it's ever invaded. It has septars, local mayors who govern and who command the meager magical resources of their communities for defense and law keeping. Magic is respected now, nt trusted, and used carefully, not casually. Halruaa has renewed its mining and making Haerlu wine, and through its envoys, has dealt with the open lord Laeral in distant Waterdeep, and the High Suikh of Ormpurr. The lords of the Tashalar are much nearer to ensure steady markets for vintages.
So, in theory these septars ruling should have been established while in Abeir, as well as these archlords setting themselves up in mountainous caverns. This kind of makes me feel like the magically gifted went to these mountainous caverns to train while in Abeir... and WHY were they going there and collecting spellbooks unless they possibly KNEW they'd be going to return to Toril. It also makes me wonder if these "mountainous caverns" might not also be where these "spell nodes" had been located... which works with my idea that "weave anchors" were established in Abeir and that near them magic was much more stable and workable. So, perhaps "Halruaa" turned itself into two different populations while in Abeir, with spellholds in the surrounding mountains acting almost like the vremyonni of Rashemen. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2024 : 17:17:09
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Hmmm, and regards the twitter map update based on Ed's Abeir update, it seems the guy put out another version (not necessarily Ed approved that I know of, but its interesting).
https://www.deviantart.com/arakkoa/art/Map-of-Abeir-per-Ed-Greenwood-lore-1028645824
One piece I found particularly interesting was the idea that Shyr's mountain ranges seem to form the shape of a draconic skeleton in this version.
He also includes the Ranthram Chain of islands and the bump previously described by Ed on Marranth.
I still don't know if I like the idea of Laerakond being so big (the size in 4e seems to be very particularly matching the size and shape to the size and shape of the "Maztica" subcontinent... i.e. minus the lands called Lopango and Anchorome). From one perspective it might make some of the drastic changes in environment make sense, but it also drastically increases the size of the realms on Laerakond. I'd much rather keep this realm small but also have it NOT transferred back to Abeir. Still, that's "opinion" and so its definitely open to interpretation.
It would also be interesting to note WHERE on Shyr Halruaa landed (i.e. was it on the northeastern portion of this bordering on Karshaunt).
On a side note: I'm obviously interested in shoehorning in a huge bit of territory comprising "Anchorome", Maztica, Lopango, and some of northern Katashaka to Abeir (all because if they didn't, then why didn't Laerakond interface with them since they'd be closer than say Faerun). The more I'm thinking on things too, I'm thinking Lhoraun might be an interesting place to transfer some portion of the eastern Shaar that was replaced by the "Underchasm".... so like portion of the eastern Shaar may have just merged as new land/island up in the north. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Jun 2024 15:24:24 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2024 : 07:42:18
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(note: check date of spellplague on Toril to see if it was in spring).
Mystra was killed on 29 Tarsakh, so spring, I guess.
So, anyways, I was reading about Xorvintroth, the dragonborn city that was basically the "Abeiran Myth Drannor". Something that I find interesting is that the dragonborn drew energy from the Far Realm to be able to use arcane magic. Andi love this idea. Abeir is supposed to be the hard mode world (while Toril is easy mode), and having magic depend on the volatile and highly dangerous energies of the Far Realm is an idea that I like more than giving Mystra power in Abeir. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2024 : 15:42:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(note: check date of spellplague on Toril to see if it was in spring).
Mystra was killed on 29 Tarsakh, so spring, I guess.
So, anyways, I was reading about Xorvintroth, the dragonborn city that was basically the "Abeiran Myth Drannor". Something that I find interesting is that the dragonborn drew energy from the Far Realm to be able to use arcane magic. Andi love this idea. Abeir is supposed to be the hard mode world (while Toril is easy mode), and having magic depend on the volatile and highly dangerous energies of the Far Realm is an idea that I like more than giving Mystra power in Abeir.
Interesting... keep the finds coming. So, this is from Adventurer's League, which some folks have deemed non-canon, but honestly... I'm all for accepting things if its not severely conflicting. I've only lightly delved this material, mostly to get info on the city of Mulmaster, so I never saw this. Posting link below so that other casual browsers can review.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Xorvintroth
But, in the end I'm fine with this as well.. in 3e there were people that took the alienist prestige class and had their magic influenced by the far realm... plus the idea that warlocks whose patron is from the far realms could also be seen as having this source.
In all, I think having "multiple possible sources" is the best path to move going forward. Now, this may not match with the 5e motto of keeping everything simple, but I've always been cool with "exceptions" that make things interesting even if it makes it more complex.
One thing that occurs to me that might be worthwhile "resembles" what was done with the warlock knights of Vaasa. They mined "felliron" from the body of a primordial, and he "regenerated" the material. They then used this felliron to make things. For all we know, there may be other primordials in Abeir doing something similar and this "material" becomes a source.
EDIT: one thing to note for that city you mentioned is this from that Wiki. So, this city had access to "the astral" and therefor IN THEORY by 5e standards should have had access to the outer planes. But if we accept some oddities of 3.5e that make planar mechanics more mysterious and harder to track, it also can make limiting these statements more viable.
The most wise and learned of Xorvintroth's inventors utilized psionic abilities to shift the consciousnesses to the Astral Plane. Unshackled by the constrains of time and mortality, they could conceive of how to best improve the life of Xorvintroth's citizens. It was from within the Astral Plane that they gained the inspiration on how to harness harness the powers they had extracted from the remote Far Realm.
I will note, in 3.5e the FRPG it definitely notes that each world has their own astral and that divine domains were TIED to that astral. So, the Abyss of realmspace wasn't the Abyss of Greyspace, etc... Mystra's dweomerheart is attached to the realmspace Astral as is Leira's divine domain, etc.....
One of the things I'm very much wanting to pursue is a concept to change "a lot of these gods disappeared/died" and instead have it be "a lot of these gods that were believed to have disappeared instead
went to Abeir". For a lot of them, this can be covered by their divine domains simply "swapped astrals" into Abeir's astral. So, the "sages" got it wrong... dweomerheart didn't explode... it moved.
To note, in the previous example... I made it extremely simple, but in truth there's even "more than one astral" tied to Toril. For instance, Kara-Tur and its surrounding section of the world is linked to "the spirit world" acting as its astral. Maztica similarly has its own "astral" which connects to its divine domains. Zakhara's lands are linked to its own "astral". It may make your head spin, but its also one way to explain away some very weird stuff.
Other divine domains that may have swapped during this time frame (and possibly PRIOR to the spellplague or SOON AFTER as well... to keep options open)
Zigguraxus - Untheric Pantheon
Heliopolis - Mulhorandi Pantheon
Leira's Court of Illusion
Amaunator's Keep of the Eternal Sun (came to Toril)
Supreme Throne (Cyric's realm)
In theory... we might even find out that the "abyss being in the elemental chaos" is a part of all this as well.
For some other deities swapping over, they may have had multiple "homes" if they were in multiple pantheons (so for instance, I have the Metahel of Anchorome having their pantheon available while in Abeir... and I have numerous deities that are veiled Faerunian gods... Hemdahl is Helm... Anachtar is Tyr ... Faerthandir is Lathander) and so we use this as an excuse to explain things that are "hard" to explain from a purely "Faerunian" viewpoint. We obviously don't need to account for everything, because mortals don't exactly understand the "science" of the divine and planar rules... but this concept gives us a quick explanation for some things that happened.
One thing that might also be used as an explanation in some of this is like an idea that Tyr didn't die, Lathander just disappear, etc.. but rather when they were imprisoning Cyric in the Supreme Throne someone (Amaunator? a long hidden avatar of Valigan Thirdborn ?) may have detached the divine domain via "shenanigans". Maybe Sune escaped... maybe she didn't. Maybe this triggers the transfer of the Metahel Pantheon. Maybe this results in Tyr "booting" a backup avatar, who then gets killed per canon. Could be a good story though. Main thing... gods can do things that will make our head spin, and what you "know" happened is likely NOT the truth. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 19 Jun 2024 17:12:10 |
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Kalontas
Acolyte
Poland
3 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2024 : 13:25:39
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Hey, I'm the creator of the map that was linked earlier in the thread. I have a complete(ish) version my DeviantArt profile (among other places).
https://www.deviantart.com/arakkoa/art/Map-of-Abeir-per-Ed-Greenwood-lore-1028645824
As the description there says, some things were deliberately fudged a bit to make it look more "sensible". E.g. the scale of Laerakond from 4E books was deliberately ignored because it would be really, really tiny. The (former) location of Maztica was a very wild guess, as I do not have access to that recent Maztica book. I also have versions with and without Laerakond, because when I first read about Abeir, I was led to believe Laearakond went back (and it has done so in my home game as a result).
But other than that, the map is 90% Edlore. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2024 : 00:49:26
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Oh hey Kalontas. I hope you don't mind, but myself and another scribe here have had a lot of fun developing our version of Maztica, Lopango, and "what faerunian sages call Anchorome", and I've been looking at northern portions of what "most" call Katashaka as places to develop. So, we'd been developing it for 5e with this all being "newly returned to Faerun" and adding some bits of lore about "what happened while it was in Abeir".... but we had no Abeir LORE to really build from. Since Ed released this recent material and then blessed your map as a rough general idea of Abeir, I decided to try and figure out HOW to shoehorn in ALL the places that in theory "went there". Part of my thoughts were the if "Katashaka" hadn't left Toril, then the people of Laerakond in 5e would have been interacting with IT much more than the mainland of Faerun.... I mean it would be a next door neighbor pretty much. So I presumed that at least the northern portion of Katashaka left as well. So, I took your map and made it VERY plain... I just wanted the general shapes. I then realized I'd have a lot of problems getting the northern portions far enough north. So, I took a slight twist. We know that things transferred kind of haphazardly. So, I transferred this section of the world and turned it 180 degrees. This puts the "impassable" boiling ocean surrounding the lands as an area with whirlwinds, whirlpools, and other freak storms/// so it kind of makes sense for HOW people might not have KNOWN that this huge landmass transferred.
This is a very high level detail view of the map zoomed out to 2%.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HmrxdItK15BElRJSDp3shFDN-GzxRMKl/view?usp=sharing
I hope you are ok with me playing with your version like this. I deliberately wanted to make everything vague, because for the most part I'm not looking to develop Abeir.... I'm looking to develop how these lands would have INTERACTED with Abeir.... and then do some timeline development. That makes it easier than having to eat the whole hog at once.
Along a similar vein, I personally prefer that Laerakond remain a place on Toril, but I stuck with the 4e scale and I basically had it that it had never truly been in the same spot where Maztica WAS... OR... that the returning of Maztica shifted it a bit westward. My view on that also at a high level is here.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wXL0YDhbn0VbaC8SYL6zIsT2IfBuGZSf/view?usp=sharing
Also, in this version, since we know that Ed has placed Halruaa in northern Shyr, I threw it on the map as well. I'm still looking into some other placements, and I believe Lhoraun becomes a place that we can end up placing sections of Faerun that "disappeared". I'd like to hear your thoughts on this concept. One of the bigger ideas that I pushed was the idea that "the Underchasm" was caused by a large section of the Shaar transferring to Abeir, while an area of empty space and possibly water transferred to Toril. With this concept in mind, I think we could transfer that section of the shaar into Abeir as something like that lower portion of Lhoraun that has a pensinsula off it leading to Marranth at the bottom, especially if we assume that SOME of the Shaar did in fact collapse in because there was no connecting land around it.
Also off these general ideas, we could stick Lantan and Nimbral as islands protected by the boiling sea and relatively near to the Lopango/Maztica subcontinents.... so hidden amongst the whirlpools, etc.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Jul 2024 00:52:53 |
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Kalontas
Acolyte
Poland
3 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2024 : 13:32:36
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(I hope I'm doing the BB Code right, it's been a while since I used a forum, lol)
quote:
I hope you are ok with me playing with your version like this.
Hey, it's a tabletop RPG. Whatever you do with it in your game is in your hands. I'm sure Ed would disagree with my cynical takes on divinity.
quote:
Along a similar vein, I personally prefer that Laerakond remain a place on Toril, but I stuck with the 4e scale
It would be even smaller in 4E scale. It would be really, really tiny by the one they gave us on the map. Like, single country small or even smaller.
And yes, Laerakond is probably supposed to have stayed on Toril "canonically". Me returning it to Abeir is a result of some miscommunication, WotC people having little understanding or care of the lore, and me realizing the mistake after it's been "canonized" in my game. So I made versions with Laerakond both on and off Abeir.
There is also some depressions in the middle of Shyr on map, and it's where I was putting the various bits of Toril that landed on Abeir. I had some general ideas for some exchanges between Kara Tur and Marranth, but I haven't built up on that yet, because we're not doing either right now in my game. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2024 : 16:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalontas
It would be even smaller in 4E scale. It would be really, really tiny by the one they gave us on the map. Like, single country small or even smaller.
I'm under the impression that Laerakond, using the 4e scale, is roughly the same size as Maztica (on its own, without Lopango and "Anchorome").
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2024 : 23:58:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Kalontas
It would be even smaller in 4E scale. It would be really, really tiny by the one they gave us on the map. Like, single country small or even smaller.
I'm under the impression that Laerakond, using the 4e scale, is roughly the same size as Maztica (on its own, without Lopango and "Anchorome").
Yep, I actually sat down one day and was trying to calculate comparison and spent a couple hours screwing around with layers and superimposing one on top of the other until I came to the realization that they were roughly the same shape, etc... I then thought I was going to see it going so far as to have mountains in roughly the same spots, but that's way off base. So, its just same general shape and size.
This is also what convinced me that not only Lopango but northern Katashaka would have also disappeared (because Katashaka to Lopango's physical separation is miniscule in certain areas, like at areas it looks like there may have even been possibly two land connections between them that have sunk ). The distance between Maztica and Katashaka would be a little further than the Moonshaes to the sword coast, but not by much. So, what I like is an idea that "Laerakond" and a large swathe of empty ocean transferred from Abeir, but several HUGE continents left Toril.... but since it wasn't Faerun for the most part they didn't know the extent. We can then play with those empty expanses transferring to make the Underchasm and some other "sinkholes" that appeared. Meanwhile perhaps some of the "boiling ocean" on Abeir is caused because of volcanic activity (Lopango and Maztica both have a LOT of volcanic activity) on the seabed after the transfer. I know that the "boiling sea" isn't really boiling hot, but hot spots could cause weird effects. Similarly, the "mist lands" on Shyr might be because of volcanic activity appearing beneath those lands as well that transferred. I know that what we've personally drawn up for Lopango "the Land of Fire" had a decent amount of volcanos, but I wouldn't mind saying something like "it used to have even MORE, and they were scattered across Abeir". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2024 : 02:58:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalontas
(I hope I'm doing the BB Code right, it's been a while since I used a forum, lol)
quote:
I hope you are ok with me playing with your version like this.
Hey, it's a tabletop RPG. Whatever you do with it in your game is in your hands. I'm sure Ed would disagree with my cynical takes on divinity.
quote:
Along a similar vein, I personally prefer that Laerakond remain a place on Toril, but I stuck with the 4e scale
It would be even smaller in 4E scale. It would be really, really tiny by the one they gave us on the map. Like, single country small or even smaller.
And yes, Laerakond is probably supposed to have stayed on Toril "canonically". Me returning it to Abeir is a result of some miscommunication, WotC people having little understanding or care of the lore, and me realizing the mistake after it's been "canonized" in my game. So I made versions with Laerakond both on and off Abeir.
There is also some depressions in the middle of Shyr on map, and it's where I was putting the various bits of Toril that landed on Abeir. I had some general ideas for some exchanges between Kara Tur and Marranth, but I haven't built up on that yet, because we're not doing either right now in my game.
At present, I'm thinking to place "transferred" Nimbral and "transferred" Lantan in the boiling ocean along with the large land mass I showed in the high level map I had.
Other regions that are known to have transferred or that I prefer to have "transfer" rather than the story in 4e are as follows
Halruaa (we KNOW it landed in northern Shyr now... so from far south to far north.... the shock of this would likely kill much of its vegetation if it was bred for warmer climates)
Bits of the 3 nations of the Chultan peninsula appear to have transferred (i.e. large portions of the Mhair and Black Jungles, large portions of Thindol, and possibly some of Samarach and Tashalar)
A large portion of the Eastern and central Shaar possibly transferred and nothing took its spot. This is quite better in my view for explaining the shaar disappearing and then coming back. My current thoughts for this are to have this portion of land appearing as a significant addition to Lhoraun's lower portion. This would put it
Similarly, a sinkhole appeared near the Giant's Run Mountains called "Land's Mouth". This was above the underdark freshwater lake known as Giant's Chalice, which was inhabited by intelligent blue ring octopi in their underwater realm of Suswynfa (see 3.5e underdark and the 2e Drizzts guide to the underdark).
Something was happening with the Chondalwood as well.
A large section of land surrounding Laothkund, such that is became known as Laothkund the Drowned. This could be similar to possibly other regions where the majority of the area transferred and thus a decent portion of the city sank. This could well make for a nice island off the coast of say Lhoraun.
Spotted bits of Unther, Chessenta, Mulhorand and even Chondath seem to have possibly transferred, resulting in cities that seemingly "collapsed" or "sank" etc.... Since we know that the transferred people of Unther and Mulhorand were under Karshimis' rule, it makes sense for their lands to appear in these "Mist Lands".
On other regions of the realms transferring... I'm actually fine with the idea that say Kara-Tur / Zakhara / Living Jungle campaign areas aren't touched by the transfer. My thinking is that we have a large section of transfer that's fairly stable and then some spotty areas off to the east and west of that (which there's enough space in between Anchorome/Maztica/Lopango/Katashaka and Kara-Tur and Zakhara that perhaps they weren't affected..... though possibly the place that some "faerunian sages have been calling Osse" may have also been affected.... but that continent has seen zero development and we don't even know if it is the "osse" that was mentioned in the one novel. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kalontas
Acolyte
Poland
3 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2024 : 12:49:15
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On the 4E maps, Laerakond appears to be about 850 miles across. So given the assumptions that Abeir and Toril are roughly Earth-sized, Laerakond would be about the size of this grey dot.
https://imgur.com/VkCa8S6
Which is not a continent size. It's about the size of Greenland. That's why I made it much bigger. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2024 : 18:11:53
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| That grey dot is still big enough for my tastes (and is still around the size of Maztica). I love your map, but your Laerakond is way too big to have just the regions depicted in the FRCG. In sorry, but it triggers my OCD. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2024 : 23:39:08
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Yep, totally agree on the rough size comparison... That being said, I believe Maztica is also referred to as a continent (I would call it a subcontinent personally.... its kind of like how Europe and Asia are separate continents in people's views... but in reality they're one landmass). But Laerakond without the other attachments I would say is too small to call simply an "island"... and generally "subcontinents" are portions of a larger continent. So, I agree with calling it a continent.
By the way, I like your take on the "newer" map for like Shyr to have mountains roughly in the shape of a dragon, Laerakond looking kind of like a T-Rex or dragon skull (which was that way in the original... I just never noticed until I looked at your drawing), and Irronther looking somewhat like a snake/naga swallowing the lake. I'd rather they be a little smaller in scale mind you, but the idea that there's a mountain range that's the body of some primordial draconic being appeals to me (and Shyr does indeed have some primordial that died to make some mountains in a region per Ed's discussion).
Further on groups transferring, he did say that on Irronther surrounding Lake Yaeranche there were wizards and armored bullies ruling over the local humans and halflings. To me that screams Torilians either being transferred there OR immigrating there because of the term wizards versus say a more generic "mage" or specifics like "sorcerers", "warlocks", "artificers", etc.... Given that the name of the continent also seems to be a play on the term "Iron There" and its got a lot of dwarves on it as well, it occurs to me that this may have been where the primordial Telos "Master of the Iron Sky" might have been before he was forcibly transferred to Toril in Vaasa and started getting felliron from his body. Having one of the clans of dwarves (Perhaps Staundoun with its Iron Council would work) having had involvement with Telos might work... as would some of the "armored bullies". His felliron may have been a key to unlocking wizards in Abeir casting as well, such that maybe it ISN'T transferred Torilians. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2024 : 07:57:00
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| Well, we know by the Xorvintroth stuff that people in Abeir can be mages a la original Warcraft's way: dabbling with very dangerous energies to use magic (Far Realm's stuff). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2024 : 15:57:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, we know by the Xorvintroth stuff that people in Abeir can be mages a la original Warcraft's way: dabbling with very dangerous energies to use magic (Far Realm's stuff).
By the way... on that city... do we have a placement for it ON ABEIR? I'm assuming that it went back after second sundering, and since its from a kind of "semi-canon" source that Ed probably never discussed its placement prior to the spellplague or after it... but you never know. Although it wouldn't fit in with my use case of "what was in Abeir during the spellplague"... I would imagine things weren't confined to said city and there would be people practicing similar magics nearby, etc... Just a thought.
On that topic kind of... what I was perusing above.... has Ed ever mentioned to anyone's knowledge where Telos was from on Abeir? I think I had asked him on twitter, but not sure, but I don't think he ever answered. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2024 : 21:11:51
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No and no, for both questions. It would be great questions to ask him.
And nope, the sources from where that city is mentioned (all 5e sources) assume that the city remained on Toril. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2024 : 21:36:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
No and no, for both questions. It would be great questions to ask him.
And nope, the sources from where that city is mentioned (all 5e sources) assume that the city remained on Toril.
Oh, so Xorvintroth stayed canonically after second sundering? Starting to wonder how much actually went back. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Topic |
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What we know of Abeir ... to collect info
