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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jul 2016 : 00:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
After the ToT, a deity's power was influenced by the amount of followers, at least in part (as there are other ways), but not necessarily their existence.
I thought that Ao had established that they needed worshipers to survive. That's how Kiaransalee was killed by Q'arlynd, and with her return people rembered her, and called her name (in the Reaver, for example). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2016 : 01:07:54
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I pulled out "Faiths and Avatars" to see what I could find about deities' existence. A deity can come into an existence in a number of ways, and prior to the ToT, Ao let the powers change and evolve unchecked. After the chaos of ToT, Ao now takes a more active role in the creation of powers, deity resurrection, mortal ascending to godhood, "immigrating" deities, etc.
It does go on to say that a deity does need followers to exist, and one way to kill a deity is to make it have no followers. But to cause a deity's death in this manner is difficult. All the worhipers would have to die, or the deity would have to log followers so slowly it doesn't realize it until it is too late. Deities can hold on as long as they have at least -one- follower. If they lose this one worshiper, it still takes time to wither, for they are sustained by their portfolio, and even the memory of their name in myths and legends. During this period, they would make every effort to regain followers.
What I take from this is that a deity doesn't need followers to exist initially, as they can be created without mortal influence, and then go on to create a race, but yes, it needs followers in order to continue to survive. Ao can also resurrect dead deities, and, it seems, even forgotten ones. The true death of a "neglected" deity would likely take centuries, giving the deity time to regain followers. To kill a deity in this manner, the deity would have to be confined to their home plane and be unable to communicate with any mortal (and I would think the souls of the dead followers would sustain the deity for a time, as they still venerate them, but eventually the deity would lose the ablity to maintain its realm, unless aided by another deity). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 21 Jul 2016 01:20:23 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2016 : 01:41:40
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| Yeah, deities didn't need followers before the ToT, so they were born unrelatedly to them. I guess K was killed like that, because apparently she forgot about her own existence (as little sense as it makes). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2016 : 01:55:57
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I think deities can still be created without followers, since they aren't necessarily created by mortals, but they are more dependant on worship now. IFRC, Finder ascended at or near the end of ToT, so the new "rules" were likely already in place. Since Faerun is polytheistic, I think that even a prayer to Tymora for good luck applies, even if that person praying isn't a devout follower of Tymora.
I am blanking on the details of K, but yeah she was "forgotten", and her name erased from the Tablets. Yet, now she's back, thanks to Ao, so even if a deity is forgotten by mortals, Ao can still rez them. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2016 : 15:05:47
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| You know, I proposed above that maybe Auppenser was a dragon deity for gem dragons which are notedly psionic... I also noted that dragons are noted for going to sleep for long periods..... from what it appears in the stories we've seen for the loss of the sun long ago and the splitting of the worlds, it appears that many draconic powers went over to Abeir (along with the "Primordials" which begs the question whether some of these draconic powers were primordials). We know that a primordial can become a god, for what is Ubtao and the elemental gods (and possibly Annam) if not a primordial with a god template. Finally, I put forth that on Abeir the primordials "retreated into the very stones of the mountains and fell silent." I wonder if Auppenser isn't some kind of draconic/primordial/deity, and at times he retreats to sleep to conserve, meditate, and/or renew his power. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2016 : 18:36:08
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| There are non-D&D examples of sleeping dragon gods, gods one does not dare awaken because they have a tendency to consume/hoard the world or fly off on city-wrecking rampages and stuff, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2016 : 22:16:10
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With exception of Kieranselee there is no example of diety that died of neglect after ToT. Even this event is quite special. So we have no knowledge how this actualy work and all other gods died/fell asleep before this change. It seem that all of those are drifting in astral sea (they still exist) compared to Myrkul, Bhaal and other killed gods that are not to be find there.
For me it sounds like they are not actualy dead but only sleeping. As old gods live in different time frame this might be just a moment for them before they rise again due to some forseen event in future. They might also just resigned on their duties and take a nap (this might actualy be what were ToT all about). |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2016 : 22:45:24
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| Right, it is exceedingly difficult to do, as you would have to trap them in their home plane and cut off their followers. Most of the "dead" deities were floating in the Astral sea, which means they have a chance to regain followers/be resurrected/awakened, etc. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2016 : 23:16:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I really don't see a reason for Tyr or elves to mistrust Auppenser.
Their less than happy history with his followers?
quote:
And most elves wouldn't have even heard of Auppenser. If they have, they wouldn't necessary equate him with the actions of a specific nation --
True enough. But, as wise Nasruddin said, let those who don't know ask those who know. 
Anyway, the elves often view this way the ''whole species'', why not more closely related subjects?
quote:
that's like saying elves would distrust Mystra because of Netheril.
Heh, some of them kind of did (cough, Elminster's headaches in Cormanthyr, cough), just not because of Netheril.
The analogy is weak, since Mystra I appeared only after the fall of Netheril, and the Netherese archwizards weren't exactly faithful followers of Mystril (or anyone else) - which was more "widely known annoying trait" than "obscure fact".
And even if she was, that still would be very far from being strongly associated with a hated enemy of the elves above all other entities. A half-assed Crown Against Scepter war at the end is one thing, cheesing the elves enough for mass-destruction (which they will feel obligated to support, judging by the other cases) is another.
Also, the Netherese still were "once apprentices of the Eaerlanni, who regrettably ran away from the good Elven path", while Jhaamdath used the powers Elves generally consider alien (and therefore more likely to decry as inferior and/or evil).
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That's how Kiaransalee was killed by Q'arlynd, and with her return people rembered her, and called her name (in the Reaver, for example).
...in LP, the series not consistent with pre-existing lore, nor making much sense within their own plot?
This argument struggles to support its own weight, let alone any extra. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2016 : 23:49:45
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| There was some talk in page one about Auppenser being a dragon deity of the gem dragons, I'd just like to mention there already is one. Sardior (I think that's the name) a ruby dragon who is the patron of psionics in the dragon pantheon. The info on him was in the wizards archive under the "mind's eye" section, though it didn't mention any relation between him and Auppenser. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2016 : 06:43:56
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quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
There was some talk in page one about Auppenser being a dragon deity of the gem dragons, I'd just like to mention there already is one. Sardior (I think that's the name) a ruby dragon who is the patron of psionics in the dragon pantheon. The info on him was in the wizards archive under the "mind's eye" section, though it didn't mention any relation between him and Auppenser.
Hmmm, so there is... and he's fond of psychic warriors, which fits the bladelords of Jhaamdath
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030124a
As much as I hate the idea of saying "this deity is the same as X deity"... this could play into things here. Or, as another option, we see from the above article that Sardior has somehow split himself into aspects of himself by creating "Thanes". We even have documented that there is an aspect of himself that has been split off and supposedly killed in the Thane of the obsidian dragons. I could easily see Auppenser as being a "Thane" for a breed of gem dragons that were localized to the area around Jhaamdath and possibly were mostly wiped out in the tidal wave (except for maybe a small clutch of hatchlings).
Actually, this could very well fit with the story of Mystra putting Auppenser to sleep, in that she may have hidden them away so that they could grow.
This actually could play into an interesting idea. What if there were a breed of gem dragons that start out really tiny (like pseudodragon size) and at ancient age are say size large (adults being medium)? Maybe they were known for serving psions kind of like their crystal familiars, but as a type of upgrade.
To add further to this idea, in the Grand History of the Realms, there is mention of Kisonraathiisar, a topaz dragon who founded Westgate and died in -349 to the Netherese wizard Saldrinar of the Seven Spells (who was putting Kisonraathiisar into a timeless sleep with brief moments of lucidity). Apparently Westgate was a kingdom that contained dragonkin at this time, which would mean that there was a kingdom of dragonkin on the border if not allied with Jhaamdath. Apparently Kisonraathiisar was trying to make a new breed of Dragonkin which could be immune to the dragon rage caused by the king killer star. Also, the Hill of the Seven Lost gods is in this area, which apparently was also some concentration of ancient draconic power (in addition to having some kind of ties to Moander, Garagos, Ghaunadaur, Jergal, Savras, Silvanus, and one whose name was lost.... probably Auppenser?). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2016 : 16:28:29
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I really don't see a reason for Tyr or elves to mistrust Auppenser.
Their less than happy history with his followers?
No, their issue was not with his religion -- their issue was with a nation that had been founded by members of his religion. Auppenser's religion was the most prominent one in Jhaamdath, but by the time of the Killing Wave, there was a distinct separation of church and state, and the actions of the Jhaamdathi leadership had nothing at all to do with Auppenser's worship.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
And most elves wouldn't have even heard of Auppenser. If they have, they wouldn't necessary equate him with the actions of a specific nation --
True enough. But, as wise Nasruddin said, let those who don't know ask those who know.
Anyway, the elves often view this way the ''whole species'', why not more closely related subjects?
By that argument, since the Jhaamdathi were human, elves should mistrust all of humanity, and all of humanity's deities, as well.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
that's like saying elves would distrust Mystra because of Netheril.
Heh, some of them kind of did (cough, Elminster's headaches in Cormanthyr, cough), just not because of Netheril.
The analogy is weak, since Mystra I appeared only after the fall of Netheril, and the Netherese archwizards weren't exactly faithful followers of Mystril (or anyone else) - which was more "widely known annoying trait" than "obscure fact".
The analogy is not weak -- the Jhaamdathi who pissed off the elves were just as faithful to Auppenser as the Netherese arcanists were to Mystryl.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
And even if she was, that still would be very far from being strongly associated with a hated enemy of the elves above all other entities. A half-assed Crown Against Scepter war at the end is one thing, cheesing the elves enough for mass-destruction (which they will feel obligated to support, judging by the other cases) is another.
Also, the Netherese still were "once apprentices of the Eaerlanni, who regrettably ran away from the good Elven path", while Jhaamdath used the powers Elves generally consider alien (and therefore more likely to decry as inferior and/or evil).
The elves had no issues with the Jhaamdathi until the Jhaamdathi began attacking elven lands. And those were people armed with swords and axes.
We have canon psionic organizations in the Realms, including an elven one based in Evereska. I think it's pretty safe to say that elves are fine with psionics if they openly practice them, themselves.
So again, I see no reason that elves would have an issue with Auppenser. They already employ the abilities he covers, and nothing about his worship is anti-elven.
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2016 : 20:39:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, their issue was not with his religion -- their issue was with a nation that had been founded by members of his religion. Auppenser's religion was the most prominent one in Jhaamdath,
Not his religion, his portfolio and followers.
There was an easy-to-pinpoint reason why instead of drooling at Awesome Elven Magic and being easily slaughtered the Unwashed Human Beasts were capable of muscling their way up to the elves' doorsteps and then kicking the elves around even in their forest. Knowing the elves, and knowing their reaction, it's reasonable to assume they did resent anything and anyone that can be blamed for this.
quote:
but by the time of the Killing Wave, there was a distinct separation of church and state, and the actions of the Jhaamdathi leadership had nothing at all to do with Auppenser's worship.
Right, because surely the Elves of all creatures don't default to Kill All Humans when one drunk steps on an elf's foot and fails to apologize properly. 
Oh, wait - they wiped out the whole place, rather than going specifically after the junta which a lot of locals didn't like any more than them, and/or trying to meddle in Jhaamdath's internal affairs.
quote:
By that argument, since the Jhaamdathi were human, elves should mistrust all of humanity, and all of humanity's deities, as well.
Of course. Jhaamdath, Netheril, Sembia, whatever.
Enough of the elves to see it at least as a trend do mistrust, and are hostile to, all humans, even if they can't begin to have a slightest idea of what this really means in the scope of their world alone. Eldreth Veluuthra would be a joke if it didn't have lots of sympathizers - but one of the strong sides of this small secret society is support of many, many elves who themselves pretend to be above it or simply cannot be arsed.
Enough of the elves to see it at least as a trend do mistrust, and are hostile to, "human" deities, too. Elminster in Myth Drannor and related references make it quite clear.
quote:
The analogy is not weak -- the Jhaamdathi who pissed off the elves were just as faithful to Auppenser as the Netherese arcanists were to Mystryl.
Sure, but Netherese arcanists being godless arrogant bastards is "everyone knows" sort of thing - it's hard to miss. They didn't have any deities prominent at all, including Mystril, other than in that one enclave. Mystril wasn't known as their official or semi-official patron deity at any point.
And, again, ultimately Mystril herself died, Mystra I and II are the successors trying to sort out some of the mess she failed to contain.
The elves still worked with the Netherese they didn't deem hopeless and after the fall helped out the refugees, if on some conditions.
So the Netherese were still treated as "misguided".
Auppenser was the known patron of the very foundation on which Jhaamdath was built. And how it ended between elves and Jhaamdath is the exact opposite.
quote:
The elves had no issues with the Jhaamdathi until the Jhaamdathi began attacking elven lands. And those were people armed with swords and axes.
Sure. At which point they asked "he, what that Jhaamdath thing is?.." And it's reasonable to assume that the "loyal" Jhaamdathi weren't suddenly deprived of all and any powers.
quote:
We have canon psionic organizations in the Realms, including an elven one based in Evereska. I think it's pretty safe to say that elves are fine with psionics if they openly practice them, themselves.
Which mostly fall under "inconsequential", either way. None of them was openly connected to Jhaamdath, which is likely to be the line between "safeguard from mindflayers just in case" and "threat".
quote:
So again, I see no reason that elves would have an issue with Auppenser. They already employ the abilities he covers,
The same could be said about Mystra - and wasn't enough to give them amount of confidence necessary to avoid panicked murderous clowning that time... |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2016 : 23:07:18
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I don't even know how to respond to this anymore. You've said elves distrust psionics, but then you said they don't distrust them because they don't associate psionics with Jhaamdath...
Nothing in canon even suggests a distrust of Auppenser, and willingly and openly embracing his portfolio shows they don't associate him with Jhaamdath. If they're willing to strengthen him by using his tools in an elven stronghold, they don't distrust him. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2016 : 23:25:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't even know how to respond to this anymore. You've said elves distrust psionics, but then you said they don't distrust them because they don't associate psionics with Jhaamdath...
Nothing in canon even suggests a distrust of Auppenser, and willingly and openly embracing his portfolio shows they don't associate him with Jhaamdath. If they're willing to strengthen him by using his tools in an elven stronghold, they don't distrust him.
As usual it looks a bit more complicated than that, the article on Kaliesh'erai states:
"Currently, the organization is experiencing a schism. Its older, more conservative members, led by the venerable Theldir Whitemoon, seek seclusion, desiring to distance themselves from the outside world, especially the non-elven world. The younger contingent, led by Dalthoeneir Delthoenoth, wishes to correspond with non-elf mind mages, possibly even admitting such individuals into their ranks."
I'm guessing the more conservative faction is pretty much considering itself to be doing things the right way, which would according to them be the elven way, and that this is how they have done things so far. They would probably consider their psionics a gift from their own gods rather than the result of mixed lineage or an accident of birth.
However the younger more open minded faction would likely be very interested in Auppenser, as it is they are from one out of a few organizations that are more or less completely inconsequential and downright pitiful when compared to what Jhaamdath had.
Whilst I do think that most elves would be quite weary of the deity of psionics, there would also be those that see him and the teachings of the fallen empire as THE way to learn about psionics. After all they built a nation that stood for over five millennia on psionics, it stands that they were damn good at it. Far better than the Kaliesh'erai that's for sure. |
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Kryose
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2016 : 02:32:04
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[quote]I still need to figure out how to wake a god. Unlock hidden powers in others? Psychic surgery? Search for lost items of power? /quote]
Perhaps I am looking at this wrong. Rather than wake a god, why not access something of great power to aid in a psionic emergence, with a follower of Lolth at the forefront? What I'm speaking of is a Udoxias. Sure, why now? Why a matron? Why would Lolth be interested in this? Does a gardener expect all of his seeds, that were planted in the spring, to grow & germinate? Could Lolth have seen or perhaps expected the possibility of some of her conclaves to fall in her upcoming "Silence"? She is a god, it would be foolish of us to limit her intelligence to our lowly understanding. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2016 : 22:29:39
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I know we have moved on from what it means for a deity to be "dead", but I found this interesting quote from Finder's Bane , in which the priestess of Bane Walinda is talking to priests of Finder at a time when Bane is supposedly dead.
" 'Gods are made of many elements. They have a physical body and a mind. Torm slew my lord Bane's body, but it still exists. It floats in the astral plane beside the bodies of other long-dead gods. Gods also possess an essence--a personality, a spirit that binds them to their followers. They also possess power-huge amounts of raw energy, beyond the ken of mortals. If a god is destroyed, his followers can perform a complicated ritual to bind together these elements-body, essence, and power--and resurrect the god. Some gods have the wisdomain to create a magical artifact that will make the ritual simpler and more efficient.'"" (Pg 144-5).
While the gods and elves are my favorite aspects of the Realms, I admittedly don't know much about Auppenser, so I can't really say much about his personal circumstance, but perhaps the quote above can be of aid. Or, Lolth herself could have prepped for something similar during her upcoming "Silence". Granted, most recent attempts at a power grab by Lolth have failed, but gods can prepare for contingencies.
Just food for thought. As I said, I am not too familiar with Auppenser. Maybe I will do some research. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2016 : 01:09:35
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It seems to me that Lloth did knew very well what will happen once she get silent but didn't care or was just amused by it. Her aim was to get her transition as fast as possible. Aupenser on the other hand get very fast into situation where he got almost no worshipers and decided to hold onto his remaining power and go to sleep.
My personal take on Aupenser is that he is another name of Oghma in that time and he just lost psionics from his portfolio after Jhaamdath fell. He was alread encroaching on others territory as psionics in my game is Batrachi in origin. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2427 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2024 : 00:04:59
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Huh. I missed some fun points the last time, hence necromancy. Still, a case of rat molestation political mess raising to the level of deities can be entertaining.
quote:
Originally posted by Kryose
Perhaps I am looking at this wrong. Rather than wake a god, why not access something of great power to aid in a psionic emergence, with a follower of Lolth at the forefront? What I'm speaking of is a Udoxias. Sure, why now? Why a matron? Why would Lolth be interested in this? Does a gardener expect all of his seeds, that were planted in the spring, to grow & germinate? Could Lolth have seen or perhaps expected the possibility of some of her conclaves to fall in her upcoming "Silence"? She is a god, it would be foolish of us to limit her intelligence to our lowly understanding.
Lolth does have an obvious interest, however. What is the main predator and rival of the drow? The illithids.
So, the mindflayers became pushy. Either Ilsensine did something, or the illithids (presumably with Its tacit approval) revived one of their gods (Maanzecorian, perhaps) who now needs more worship quickly, thus promotes activity fitting its own portfolio.
One of the main threats to the drow quickly became more active.
Lolth is busy juggling too many side projects and trying to get her fingers into too many pies. While she perhaps could throw adequate resources at every affected world where she is active, this would significantly deplete her reserves. Also, liable to wake up a wasp nest, which can make it even more costly... seeing how she is not the most popular lady with lots of people, starting with the worshippers of her ex-husband. She would rather minimize expenses where possible by employing allies, or at least encouraging enemies of her enemy.
What is the main counter to the illithids' shenanigans? Lots of psionic power on the other side. Those magical items can help, but if it was logistically possible to make them a game-changer within the frame of Lolthite theocracy, the drow would do this millennia ago.
Among the drow these talents were never numerous in general, with rebellion and subsequent destruction of House Oblodra, the situation only got worse on Toril in particular. The duergar are dangerous rivals, and will act against the mindflayers to the best of their ability anyway, just make sure they know and stop distracting them. The others... either even worse or too little power on large scale.
Now the human psionicists are more likely to be mercenary than average, and are unsuited to become an independent power in Underdark. However imperfect and straightforward, it is a good stopgap solution to the illithid related problems. Now, how to cause this. What could encourage propagation of psionic training? Why, the same kind of force which caused the problem: a deity who needs to expand quickly. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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'To Wake a God'
