| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Erikor |
Posted - 13 May 2022 : 20:50:37
RAS's new book, Glacier's Edge, is released in august this year I think.
Starlight Enclave wasn't particularly well recieved among fans on this site, including myself.
Do you guys think it's gonna be any good? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TKU |
Posted - 14 May 2023 : 06:58:16
It's unfortunate that Menzoberranzan's house succession rules were built in such a way that the First house could never be overthrown without complete annihilation, because that sort of ended up meaning that we were never going to get something interesting like another house supplanting Baenre and see how they ruled Menzo differently, their goals and ambitions etc, or a plot where Baenre had to contend with being anything other than top dog in the city, maybe trying to win back their seat. That sort of thing. WoTC/RAS was never going to let them get annihilated, which meant another house could never defeat them, resulting being house wars that ended up being very boring in practice.
Some cities like Ched Nassad and Ust Natha seem to have implied rules for rising through the ranks of their houses that didn't necessarily involve complete annihilation. Would have been nice to see some more of that. Alas.
Of course, the borderline nonpresence of the other drow cities in the RAS novels and their eventual sidelining/destruction/retconning from the setting meant we couldn't have inter-city rivalries with Menzoberranzan either, which is also a real shame.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 May 2023 : 03:41:42
quote:
Originally posted by redking
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What's really annoying about the focus on Menzoberranzan is that it was originally just another city, one of many. It was listed as a "minor" city in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. The Menzoberranzan boxed set calls it (emphasis mine) "a drow city of middling size and importance" (Page 3 of Book One of the set) and on the next page says that "Slightly more than 20,000 drow call Menzoberranzan home. This is fewer than most drow cities; most hold 35,000 or more."
I think what made Menzoberranzan an interesting location was not its size or power, which was less than others, even neighbouring Ched Nasad, but that it was an outpost of religious orthodoxy for Lolthites, and many other cities were far more heterodox. In Menzobberanzan, the church of Lolth is the only church. Not even Selvetarm has a presence. In other cities, Lolth's church has to compete with others.
Yeah, but we never got to see those other cities to see if their situation was interesting or not.
Me, I don't find total dominance of one religion interesting at all. There's no competition, no struggle for them. The only competition is within the church, and there's only so much backstabbing you can watch before it's boring.
Even the House wars in Menzo are boring, because no matter what happens, Baenre is going to come out on top and do whatever they want.
The story of Menzoberranzan is an unchanging millennia-long status quo. |
| TKU |
Posted - 14 May 2023 : 02:58:01
quote:
Originally posted by redking
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What's really annoying about the focus on Menzoberranzan is that it was originally just another city, one of many. It was listed as a "minor" city in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. The Menzoberranzan boxed set calls it (emphasis mine) "a drow city of middling size and importance" (Page 3 of Book One of the set) and on the next page says that "Slightly more than 20,000 drow call Menzoberranzan home. This is fewer than most drow cities; most hold 35,000 or more."
I think what made Menzoberranzan an interesting location was not its size or power, which was less than others, even neighbouring Ched Nasad, but that it was an outpost of religious orthodoxy for Lolthites, and many other cities were far more heterodox. In Menzobberanzan, the church of Lolth is the only church. Not even Selvetarm has a presence. In other cities, Lolth's church has to compete with others.
bingo. It was very useful to have around as a starting point. A baseline to define the rest of the broader Drow civilization around. Unfortunately the ballooning focus on it which came to a head in 3rd disastrously left us with scant outside that baseline. And now it can no longer be counted on to be a static fixture due to the rebellion etc. IDK it just seems to me like the Drow are a bit of a mess now, and it's a real shame.
Sorry Irennan/Wooly for not replying to you. I forgot. |
| Erikor |
Posted - 13 May 2023 : 21:32:44
quote:
Originally posted by redking
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What's really annoying about the focus on Menzoberranzan is that it was originally just another city, one of many. It was listed as a "minor" city in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. The Menzoberranzan boxed set calls it (emphasis mine) "a drow city of middling size and importance" (Page 3 of Book One of the set) and on the next page says that "Slightly more than 20,000 drow call Menzoberranzan home. This is fewer than most drow cities; most hold 35,000 or more."
I think what made Menzoberranzan an interesting location was not its size or power, which was less than others, even neighbouring Ched Nasad, but that it was an outpost of religious orthodoxy for Lolthites, and many other cities were far more heterodox. In Menzobberanzan, the church of Lolth is the only church. Not even Selvetarm has a presence. In other cities, Lolth's church has to compete with others.
Someone correct me if I missed something but I noticed that the population of Menzoberranzan is "always" said to be around 20.000. Before and after the war at Mithral Hall it was 20.000 and after Demogorgon went on a rampage in the Underdark it was still around 20.000. With the losses they've suffered and how often citizens there kill eachother you would think the number would have gone down at least a litte bit. |
| redking |
Posted - 13 May 2023 : 07:25:27
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What's really annoying about the focus on Menzoberranzan is that it was originally just another city, one of many. It was listed as a "minor" city in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. The Menzoberranzan boxed set calls it (emphasis mine) "a drow city of middling size and importance" (Page 3 of Book One of the set) and on the next page says that "Slightly more than 20,000 drow call Menzoberranzan home. This is fewer than most drow cities; most hold 35,000 or more."
I think what made Menzoberranzan an interesting location was not its size or power, which was less than others, even neighbouring Ched Nasad, but that it was an outpost of religious orthodoxy for Lolthites, and many other cities were far more heterodox. In Menzobberanzan, the church of Lolth is the only church. Not even Selvetarm has a presence. In other cities, Lolth's church has to compete with others. |
| TKU |
Posted - 12 May 2023 : 14:07:45
So soon? Shame the review of the last one seems to have petered out. As for 'Lolth's Warrior' I don't have high hopes. Following the series has been increasingly disheartening of late, in terms of new lore additions, character development, retcons, and the unfolding storyline in Menzoberranzan. I expect to be disappointed, honestly. |
| Erikor |
Posted - 11 May 2023 : 22:00:33
Only about three more months until Lolth's Warrior comes out. What are your expectations? After the last book mine are quite low. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 20:55:33
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
*snip*
But the problem of controlled chaos is that it doesn't work, like at all, by the very definition of what a chaotic system is. In this case, the means of controlling the system are also useless, because the chances of error in communication/interpretation are massive. And as I mentioned, in a chaotic system, an insignificant error-->disproportionate consequences down the line. That was the whole point of my previous post.
Unless by chaos they just mean conflict, but controlled conflict is just what any society has, and it certainly doesn't look like the conflict in drow society is controlled. In fact, the very idea that Lolth can come down and tell the drow to stop, and they'll actually do that and change their whole mindset on the fly (that we often see in novels and whatnot) is hot garbage, because people don't work like that. You can't make people just snap in and out of mindsets and survival systems ingrained in their brain as you please. That's not a thing.
Moreover, Lolth's system of "social darwinism" is extremely fallimentary, that kind of stuff quickly leads to being wiped out, especially in extremely hostile environments. The reason is that it's giving up one of (it not the) biggest strengths that made humans so succesful and adaptable as a species in first place. And it offers no advantages, because reducing your numbers so you can have trained individuals (that you could still have without all the backstabbing) is NOT a good survival tactic. Especially considering the effects that this kind of lifestyle would have on people, and how it would massively impair their brain development, thought process, and overall health--and therefore strength. As a society model, it's dead on arrival, and it makes no sense to portray it as even remotely succesful. But I've already talked about this in my response to TBeholder. Anyway, there are tons of ways to show Lolth trying to shape drow society in her image that don't involve being a total failure as a society.
As for the early days, I honestly don't know how common failing drow cities were, but the fact that the drow are presented as the masters of the Underdark, or even a major faction with the kind of system that they have, is defying of any logic. Heck, with that kind of sheer stupidity, the drow would have probably failed to even establish a presence (beyond bands of scavengers and marauders). But of course, we gotta have the decadent and self-destructing society, that *started* like that (this makes the matter even worse), and somehow became the iconic player of the Underdark. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 19:19:12
Yeah, all the other authors had to share. RAS seem himself as an exception? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 19:12:50
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
'The drow always win' seems to me more a narrative problem evolving over time with the focus on Menzoberranzan and house Baenre/Bregan D'aerthe. If it was another drow city that was winning, maybe even beating Menzoberanan, or if Baenre had been overthrown and wiped out/replaced by another noble house sometime in the last thirty or so books, I don't think this would be as much of an issue.
What's really annoying about the focus on Menzoberranzan is that it was originally just another city, one of many. It was listed as a "minor" city in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. The Menzoberranzan boxed set calls it (emphasis mine) "a drow city of middling size and importance" (Page 3 of Book One of the set) and on the next page says that "Slightly more than 20,000 drow call Menzoberranzan home. This is fewer than most drow cities; most hold 35,000 or more."
So we have it firmly established, early on, that Menzoberranzan was not all that -- and yet, it somehow became the center of drow culture and the most important place in all the Underark.
As for House Baenre, it should have been cast down on the way home from their failed assault on Mithril Hall. The other Houses should have ganged up on Baenre right then and took out the House that had brought so much damage to all of them.
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Anyways, I perceive a big part of the impetus for all of the controversial recent upheavals in regards to the drow over the last few books as being mixed up in a struggle over creative control. I have a lot of the older 2e sourcebooks and I know he was consulted for/collaborated on a number of them, but the systematic way just about everything from that older material seems to have been erased seems very deliberate when it's coming from someone who, again-was consulted/collaborated with in their creation. Throughout his novels, references to 'outside' drow lore (stuff from other authors) have been pretty sparce and lacking further development/exploration from RAS. Like it was either dictated to be included or RAS was throwing a bone with x or y reference, but not something he greatly enjoyed writing about.
I question how much collaboration and consultation really happened there. Either there wasn't that much, or his attitudes have changed considerably since that time.
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
The erasure(?) of the other previously existing drow cities, changes to the drow's origins, and the introduction of the new 'good drow' societies feels like (to me) an action to reassert creative control over the drow. he isn't opposed to other drow cities, just ones he didn't create and write, he's not opposed to 'good drow', just that he needs to be the one to dictate how they fit into his world.
Any author working in a shared world should know it's not their world to shape as they see fit, and that they should do what is necessary to make sure their stuff fits into that world.
I know there are some authors in other genres that are popular enough that their editors take a more hands-off approach to them than they would to other authors; I once read that a particular, well-known author wouldn't even let editors touch her stuff. I wonder if that's what happened here, due to the popularity of the character. When 3E came out, WotC seemed to stop caring about continuity and making sure things fit the setting; it's possible that at that point they just said "Hey, write whatever you want, and we'll wrap the setting around it." |
| TKU |
Posted - 05 Dec 2022 : 17:28:57
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan*snip*
When I say 'controlled chaos' I mean that the scope and form of it is purposefully limited, because while Lolth loves chaos, the chaos is intended to serve a purpose. SHe has that whole darwinism philosophy embedded in drow society, and all of it seems to be directed towards shaping the drow to be more like herself, a being that (with her overflowing ego) she views as a superior being. That does seem to include rebelling against the system and it's rulers, including herself, by design, but within a system that punishes deviancy harshly when caught.
Honestly, it makes more sense to me to reconcile the contradictory elements of drow society and how Lolth interacts with it if you consider how much of her ego is wrapped up in this particular project. In shaping the drow to be a reflection of herself, if they completely fail, it's a repudiation of her personal philosophy and herself, if they thrive, it's validation. She doesn't act nearly this obsessively with her Chitine or other non-drow followers, even if they might also be useful tools towards her plots and plans. I think it falls into place a bit more neatly if you come at it with the perspective that she sees something of herself in the drow and wants to (nurture is so very much the wrong word here) encourage that in ways that can easily come off as self-defeating and contradictory-setting them up to be at each other's throats but stepping in to keep them from destroying themselves.
And there's a whole lot that could be said about the purpose/implications of stuff like driders.
Anyway, I think it was handled with better balance in the past. In the early sourcebooks I remember reading about a lot of 'failed' drow city states and the implication seemed to me that it was a fairly common occurrence that the drow were overcome by their enemies and/or revolted against her rule. Undoubtedly if she focused them more on external threats rather than internal they'd be more successful, maybe more like how her son runs his followers. But Lolth and her followers are in many ways their own worst enemies.
'The drow always win' seems to me more a narrative problem evolving over time with the focus on Menzoberranzan and house Baenre/Bregan D'aerthe. If it was another drow city that was winning, maybe even beating Menzoberanan, or if Baenre had been overthrown and wiped out/replaced by another noble house sometime in the last thirty or so books, I don't think this would be as much of an issue.
quote:
Originally posted by redking*snip*
coming from an athiest, RAS's religious beliefs feel uncomfortably out of place projected onto the realms. Speaking personally, of course.
Anyways, I perceive a big part of the impetus for all of the controversial recent upheavals in regards to the drow over the last few books as being mixed up in a struggle over creative control. I have a lot of the older 2e sourcebooks and I know he was consulted for/collaborated on a number of them, but the systematic way just about everything from that older material seems to have been erased seems very deliberate when it's coming from someone who, again-was consulted/collaborated with in their creation. Throughout his novels, references to 'outside' drow lore (stuff from other authors) have been pretty sparce and lacking further development/exploration from RAS. Like it was either dictated to be included or RAS was throwing a bone with x or y reference, but not something he greatly enjoyed writing about.
The erasure(?) of the other previously existing drow cities, changes to the drow's origins, and the introduction of the new 'good drow' societies feels like (to me) an action to reassert creative control over the drow. he isn't opposed to other drow cities, just ones he didn't create and write, he's not opposed to 'good drow', just that he needs to be the one to dictate how they fit into his world. |
| redking |
Posted - 04 Dec 2022 : 05:05:48
I feel like the real problem we are seeing her are Salvatore's personal problems playing out on the pages of a fictional novel, whether it be his evangelical atheism (having the zeal of the convert), or his struggles with the question of racism, at a time in racism is in sharp focus in society and a vocal minority online have tried to connect Salvatore's portrayals of drow with real life racism.
Writing a good story is easy compared to writing a good story + promoting fantasy atheism + getting the online mob of my back. I think the latter is what Salvatore is trying to do and it's not working out very well. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Nov 2022 : 02:00:33
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
When it comes down to it, is anyone really going to alter the way they play to fit in with RAS' storytelling.
I for one will not be using characters named after beef stew, or dwarfy mcdwarf-face, etc.
I don't think anyone will do that. The discussion is more about the content itself, regardless of the fact that people won't change how they play just because RAS said so. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Nov 2022 : 01:58:08
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
It is not meant to be successful (or to be an example).
I never thought it was meant to be an example of good society, but it is indeed portrayed as succesful--despite the stagnation and crises you mentioned. So much of the lore out there, as well as the implications of the lack of meaningful consequences, portray the drow as massively succesful. They have the best fighters, the best artists, the best wizards, the best technology (including advanced prosthetics), flourishing economy, etc... They are a succesful society by all means. And the fact that they thrived and their influence grew more and more despite being surrounded by extremely powerful enemies out to kill them, in an environment poor with resources, paints that as incredibly successful.
That's the core of the issue. There are smart ways to write evil, the drow aren't one of them. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Nov 2022 : 01:50:10
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
My feeling is that the various drow societies under Lolth's heel are as unstable as possible by her design. Not necessarily just to entertain Lolth (although that is an added benefit) but because of her fixation on turning the drow into a mirror of herself through the perverse darwinist philosophies her church teaches has created a society that is purposefully unstable. (the intensity of this instability varying from city to city) Carefully *controlled* chaos is her goal and her means to shape the drow. Siege of Darkness and Daughter of the Drow showed that she is very much personally invested in keeping the drow balanced on that knife's edge and doesn't want things to get too out of hand.
In the older lore there was quite a few examples where that balancing act fell apart and the drow were wiped out or Lolth's worship was pushed out through revolution, invasion etc, so obviously she's not infallible here. IMO she pushes that balancing act a bit too far which ends up biting her in the behind. Her own worst enemy in a way. Also I imagine that her 'survival of the fittest' tendancies lead her to letting drow suffer and fail if they didn't meet her expectations prior to needing to be bailed out.
But that doesn't work, and it most certainly doesn't lead to a prosperous civilization. It's the same as giving up the main advantage that made social species so successful--it's outright dumb.
Cooperation is a skill, and mindsets shape all aspects of your life. You can't raise a people entirely made up of traumatized sociopaths who don't know how communicate and see everyone as their enemy, and then magically make them snap out of it and cooperate as soon as things seem to get out of hand. You don't get to eat your cake and have it too.
Besides, I mean, what even is controlled chaos? The one defining element of chaos isn't a lack of structure (everything has a structure of sorts), but the fact that even minuscule changes in the situation produce massive and hard to predict changes down the line. So, all chaos is "controlled", in that there are indeed ways to predict what happens (think the weather), the problem is that even an insignificant error can have catastrophic consequences. And when communication is involved, when it even happens in riddles (Lolth rarely outright tells her followers to do X), there are huge margins for big errors to happen often.
Considering this, maybe the devs tell us that Lolth is trying to have a controlled chaos, but they certainly don't show it. They just show Lolth toying with people. This isn't really modern--more than anything, there were a couple authors trying to make Lolth's behavior make sense, and going against the current to do that. But overall, even in old books, Lolth has been portrayed as a force that stops the development of the drow, so that they'll always be tied to her, and yet the drow are still portrayed as massively succesful at the same time.
The problem, from a narrative perspective, isn't that the drow society is a steaming pile of dung, but that the fact that it's a steaming pile of dung leads to no significant consequence, and instead the drow are somhow portrayed as a top tier civilization, that succeeds at all the things that lack of cooperation would make impossible. Hence why the "Mary Sue" design: they win and have successes that they don't deserve. |
| TKU |
Posted - 28 Nov 2022 : 00:34:12
My feeling is that the various drow societies under Lolth's heel are as unstable as possible by her design. Not necessarily just to entertain Lolth (although that is an added benefit) but because of her fixation on turning the drow into a mirror of herself through the perverse darwinist philosophies her church teaches has created a society that is purposefully unstable. (the intensity of this instability varying from city to city) Carefully *controlled* chaos is her goal and her means to shape the drow. Siege of Darkness and Daughter of the Drow showed that she is very much personally invested in keeping the drow balanced on that knife's edge and doesn't want things to get too out of hand.
In the older lore there was quite a few examples where that balancing act fell apart and the drow were wiped out or Lolth's worship was pushed out through revolution, invasion etc, so obviously she's not infallible here. IMO she pushes that balancing act a bit too far which ends up biting her in the behind. Her own worst enemy in a way. Also I imagine that her 'survival of the fittest' tendancies lead her to letting drow suffer and fail if they didn't meet her expectations prior to needing to be bailed out.
What I can't get behind is this modern envisioning I'm hearing about where her motivations are purely amusement, plus some nonsense about her sourcing out to her Yochlol running things since she can't be bothered with the details. Lolth is very hand's-on for a deity, and I can't get behind the idea of reducing the agency of one of the realm's most active and micromanage-y villainess' by 'revealing' that she's not really in the game, and never really has had her heart in it to begin with, and doesn't even care about the ONE(thanks to retcons) city that worships her. It just seems like such a ridiculous retcon-and it doesn't sound even remotely in character (aside from the aforementioned issue I have with it defanging one of the Realm's most memorable villains). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Nov 2022 : 21:51:51
When it comes down to it, is anyone really going to alter the way they play to fit in with RAS' storytelling.
I for one will not be using characters named after beef stew, or dwarfy mcdwarf-face, etc.
|
| Athreeren |
Posted - 27 Nov 2022 : 21:46:53
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I wouldn't compare the drow and 1984. 1984 was meant to be a dystopian cautionary tale, purposefully exaggerating stuff to show the consequences of things by making them more apparent as they were taken to the extreme. It doesn't say that the society it portrays is succesful. The worldbuilding of the drow (which paints nearly everyone, not just the rulers, as a sociopath) wants to be taken seriously, and says that their ludicrous society is somehow still a thriving center of innovation, beauty, sophistication, economic success, produces the best individuals at basically anything, etc... Basically, a huge Mary Sue flag.
I don't think that's true: in Siege of Darkness, Lolth reveals that she only sponsored Matron Baenre's plan to invade Mithral Hall because the goddess knew it would weaken her high priestess, which would increase the tensions (and thus the chaos) in Menzoberranzan. Lolth is always going through great pains to ensure that the city stagnates. We can also see the stagnation in the fact that drow still talk about a surface raid on defenceless elves as a great victory decades later: their achievements are only seen as great by them. And yet they still see themselves as the centre of the multiverse, thinking that the Time of Troubles must be a sign that they have somehow offended Lolth...
These examples show that the city is definitely not stable, and is more a vivarium for Lolth to play with. It is not meant to be successful (or to be an example). Again, I don't see how the continued existence of Menzoberranzan makes sense if she is treating all cities in the same way, as she is spending a lot of energy to ensure it neither progresses nor get destroyed. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 27 Nov 2022 : 11:17:07
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
Menzoberranzan reminds me of 1984: the rulers are sociopaths with absolute power, which lets them abuse citizens in whichever way they like, and nothing can actually topple them. In the case of Menzoberranzan, this absolute power comes from Lolth; the main issue being that nothing prevents the other gods from recruiting worshippers in their dreams and help them coordinate an uprising. If we ignore that though, Menzoberranzan works: Lolth has pushed for a society of stifling order in which she keeps causing chaos, making it an interesting take on chaotic evil (in that it also mocks the very notion of order). And if people try to leave, they get killed by the dangerous environment.
I wouldn't compare the drow and 1984. 1984 was meant to be a dystopian cautionary tale, purposefully exaggerating stuff to show the consequences of things by making them more apparent as they were taken to the extreme. It doesn't say that the society it portrays is succesful. The worldbuilding of the drow (which paints nearly everyone, not just the rulers, as a sociopath) wants to be taken seriously, and says that their ludicrous society is somehow still a thriving center of innovation, beauty, sophistication, economic success, produces the best individuals at basically anything, etc... Basically, a huge Mary Sue flag.
quote:
But if we go a bit further, we find other people, who should be competing for the drow's resources. Svirfneblin are presented as a powerful enemy force, probably because the Lolthites need powerful enemies on the outside to legitimate their rule. They're probably not much of a threat, but powerful enough to be presented as such. Yet, nobody in Sorcere is going to share their researches with others, whereas Svirfneblin show a pride in their work that encourages them to share their work with others and build upon each other's: at some point, they should be overpowering the drow. And that's just the Svirfneblin: why don't illithid take over the city? What does the continued existence of Menzoberranzan brings them?
In the end, the strangest thing about the drow is why Lolth is so powerful. If only the drow worship her, and she spends so much of her power making them hate her, how did she remain so powerful for so long? And if that strategy somehow actually works, why don't all evil gods do it?
Yeah, among the countless other questions that naturally come as soon as you start looking into the drow beyond the outermost surface level. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 27 Nov 2022 : 11:08:32
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Obviously it must have practical limits.
None that are shown, apparently. We were just shown a society based on remorseless exploitation, constant lying, and fits of rage and sadism ('cuz why not). As an author, you need to show things that are not subtext for them to exist in your narrative. This self-limitating dynamic and its specifics would be an extremely important part of the drow worldbuilding--if they were there. They're certainly not something to be left as subtext, because the way this mechanism works would be key to characterizing this kind of society (since, you know, it'd be one of the few things that allows it to survive, as well as the prime indicator of what kind of beliefs truly govern the society underneath all the skulls and spiders exterior).
Regardless, there's one thing I may not have conveyed very well: my main issue is that the drow are an example of trying to have your cake and eat it too, and that their worldbuilding is based on ignoring the consequences of its own premises. I'll explain better in each paragraph.
quote:
Here you seem to confuse maxims and general directions in which someone pointed sometime with praxis.
"All of them! All the time!" is just lolgimmick mentality. I refer you to part 3 of What's Wrong with the World by G. K. Chesterton for mockery thereof.
For this specific case, consider that drow proverb: "Those who watch their backs meet death from the front".
Except that's what we're fed when it comes to drow. That's what I mean with non-narrative; things have consequenceses--extreme behaviors eventually die out or become more limited, because they're disadvantageous. But in the drow extreme behavior is the overwhelming majority of what gets depicted (both in lore and novels), yet for some reason it never has impactful consequences, never changes, and the drow are depicted as always thriving despite that.
quote:
As to the trade, Underdark merchants were said to be quite trustworthy. Their own high-ups rigorously enforce adherence to the agreements, and everyone involved knows this.
This reads as another example of trying to have your cake and eat it too. The devs insist that they have a culture based entirely on backstabbing and trust being a laughable idea, which is ridiculous if you want to paint a remotely succesful culture. At this point, you have 2 routes: either you introduce a faction that is strong in term of resources (like the merchants) that sees the disadvantages with the kind of culture, and slowly but steadily changes the mindset by introducing new ideas, and "enforcing" them through the necessity of resources. Or you show the destructive consequences of such a culture. Or, well, both. It's just nonensical to depict the merchants as some kind of island in terms of mentality, especially with the extensive interactions they have with their own society and outside. A strong and active merchant faction should have brought significant changes towards a more cooperative (aka advantageous) mindset, as well as more openness, in over 10k years.
Mentality is something that tends to affect all facets of your life. Inability to trust (or even seeing trust as a negative thing) inevitably spills over to anything that requires some sort of agreement (aka trust), which includes deals, making them harder to strike. There should have been a process in which drow merchants slowly adapted their mindset in order to trade with other races, and then influenced their society. Instead we just have drow merchants being trustworthy traders (and, I guess, being able to snap back to classic drow mode for everything else).
quote:
That's a non-sequitur mounted on top of another non-sequitur.
If someone has power (whether de jure or de facto) to stop cars at will, is "therefore" all trade in cheese massively discouraged? Obviously, it's nonsense.
Specific power is always implicitly restricted: by interests, frameworks... and in case someone gets really unreasonable about it, someone else has power to remove whoever causes the problem from picture, one way or another.
In case of the drow, usually in a way that doubles as a deterrent to others, of course.
As to trade in cheese, it does obviously work better with trucks indeed, but can be conducted without involving trucks at any stage. And was, and to small degree still is.
A priestess can end a business started by a commoner on a whim. Any business. If this isn't a huge discouragement for starting businesses, I don't know what it is.
But I'll address your point: if you can make a trade much harder by stopping--to follow your example--transportations, it will obviously discourage that trade by making it less efficient and profitable. Does that mean that the trade will cease altogether? Of course not, but it will suffer. Stuff like this doesn't lead to a thriving economy. The devs who wrote in this bit of lore wanted the irrational and oppressive ruling class, yet they also wanted the magic, tech, and economic powerhouse. Another example of having your cake and eating it too.
quote:
That's a buzzword, which would more fog than convey meaning even in the context where it was born. In this context the meaning, if any, is fully opaque.
Economic and technological growth. Apologies for the lack of clarity, thought it was implied by the context.
quote:
quote:
Exchange of ideas is discouraged as well,
How so? They definitely have sects and fashions.
Because exchanging ideas can't be separated from cooperation—human language has evolved due to the need of coordination (and of gossiping, to condemn people who were exploiting others in the early stages of human history. Which is also a form of coordination). You'll be much less inclined to exchange ideas with someone that you perceive as your enemy. Why? Because you'll fear to be wrong, to show any sign of incompetence and therefore vulnerability. Especially if you've been raised with the idea that your worth and place depends on how powerful you are, and how much you can stomp on others. Moreover, the drow are all taught that everyone is their enemy, since childhood, this kind of idea will linger in their brain and influence most of what they do on a daily basis. If they were humans (and let's be real, they're nothing but humans with black skin and pointy ears) their brain probably developed in a very different way from a normal brain, and you'll probably see things like a reduced activity in the frontal cortex, and a heightened activity in the amygdala, because connections between neurons become more and more solid (aka, likely to activate over other connections), the more you use them.
Anyhow, this situation is devastating for any kind of development. Let's say that you're creating a new tech, but can't quite get past an issue. If you have this kind of mindset, you'll hardly share it with others (especially if the tech is to defend yourself) in order to find a solution to that issue. And maybe your thinking also has some important mistakes, that would be quickly picked up by others. In short, you may never develop your tech, and if you do, it will almost certainly be less than what it could have been, because others will hardly get a chance to improve on it (and that's true for just about anything, not only tech). Yet, imitating and improving is how humans have become so succesful IRL...
I know you can see where this is going.
quote:
quote:
and cooperation is null and is hard to enforce even in situation of crisis, because inner strife permeates the society to a ludicrous level (to the point that fighting each other during a battle or while being sieged isn't rare),
True enough. The balance is shifted far toward competition and away from cooperation. Increased competition stimulates forms of development that compensate for inefficiencies of reduced cooperation. The trade-off may or may not be worth it.
No, not when competition means backstabbing and poses a deterrent from exchanging ideas. And especially not in an extremely hostile environment. Humans have thrived because of cooperation. Cooperation is undeniably the most succesful tactic in nature. Humans have grown so much, and have developed a lot of the newer area of their brains, to adapt to a highly cooperative lifestyle. Lack of cooperation leads to a hard downfall, very quickly.
Competition can be constructive, but backstabbing and ever-present threat of being murdered isn't competition. It's just devastating to a person. It puts you in a state of paranoia and anxiety, and those states are shit for coming up with good or new solutions to larger problems, though they may push you to find good solutions to defend yourself. That's because when your safety is in danger, everything else loses importance.
Overall, cooperation wins even there though, because a society based on paranoia won't have the exchange of ideas needed to improve tech and create new stuff (see the example above). And it's not like the drow need the infighting and strife to feel threatened enough to want to develop new defenses, right? Just look at their list of enemies.
Moreover, generally speaking, empathy evolved because it was a succesful trait. Cooperation evolved because it was massively more succesful than lack of it. Don't mistake what I'm saying for some moral argument, I'm talking about sheer efficiency. Why are insects like ants and bees so damn succesful as species, to the point of being the most succesful insects? Because they're eusocial. Why are orcas so damn succesful, to the point of being the second most widespread non-insect, non-bacteria species, right behind humans? Cooperation. The need of cooperation is also among the factors that pushed the human brain to evolve like it did, making us the most succesful non-bacteria species on this planet.
quote:
All other drow factions think Lolthites are overdoing this, thus themselves at least somewhat shift the balance toward cooperation.
But "suboptimal" is not the same as "non-viable".
In this case, yes, it does. Besides, "suboptimal" hardly makes you a thriving and hyper-advanced civilization like the drow are said to be.
quote:
The other advantage of their form of competitive theocracy is that since all power is held firmly, within stable groups almost any decision is enforceable from its level down, almost all the time. They may bicker, but they will follow orders of superiors, even high-risk ones.
The stability doesn't make sense given the kind of mentality they have, though (and I mean, try to make a stable group of sociopaths--good luck with that). If it was there, it would be yet another attempt to eat your cake and have it too. But I'm not even sure we were shown that kind of stability to begin with. There have been multiple cases where orders haven't been followed in important situations--like attempting to murder a leader the day before a friggin' battle, or deciding that your city being sieged is a good time to attempt a coup.
quote:
quote:
and people can literally be killed for the lulz.
That's somehow unique?
If your citizens are subject to being legally killed for the lulz, and there's even a sport based on that, you're not living in a thriving and succesful society, unlike the drow are portrayed to be. I don't know why this even needs to be said.
I'll add that keeping your citizens' quality of life high enough is also a priority to the drow. The only kind of nation who can afford to crap all over its people is a dictatorship whose resource income is mostly based on a super valuable resource (like oil), and as long as they keep extracting and selling that, the dictator will have enough resources to keep the key people (like the military guys) happy and remain in a position of power (and even those dictatorships surely aren't thriving civilizations).
A nation whose income depends on its citizens doing their qualified work, requires those citizens to benefit from at least a passable quality of life. Meanwhile, drow commoners are described as utterly miserable. "But there are slaves". Slaves can generally only do non-qualified work, unless you educate them. But at that point you're investing resources, so they won't be as easily replaced if your "f*ck the QoL of my people" kills a few, and you need them too to benefit from an at least passable quality of life.
So, the prosperity of drow society makes no sense from this perspective too.
quote:
quote:
Let's add a society that rises everyone with massive childhood trauma and neglect, which massively incides on people's efficiency.
I don't understand what this was supposed to mean and only hypothesize it would make perfect sense for tumblr regulars.
I've already mentioned this, but once again, childhood trauma and neglect have massive impacts on the brain (and body) development, as well as on self-efficiency and on physical health. I suggest you an excellent book: "The Body Keeps the Score", by psychiatrist Bessel Van Der Kolk, a pioneer in understanding and treating trauma and how it affects the body and the brain (and, like, it physically changes your brain).
On this note (child development), I'll also highlight the stupidity of worldbuilding a society with "love is weakness" as one of its core ideas. Love and empathy are human traits because they're advantageous not only for cooperation, but because they're needed to take care of children. Being human (and drow) children so vulnerable and reliant on others, our species had to develop these traits in order to take care of their children. Vice-versa, we have also developed ways to develop as children that are entirely reliant on love and empathy (and physical contact). A child growing without those will have a VASTLY harder time in life. Of course, if you extend this to a whole society, you see where the inefficiency comes from.
But I thought that it was a given that a society *entirely* made up of children growing up as miserable and unloved would not be efficient (and prone to burnout).
Anyway, judging from your point, you seem to underestimate what the states of mind can do to a person. If you actually do, that's far from the truth. Mindsets are perhaps the single most impactful factor in determing how successful and happy a person can be, and mindsets sculpted pre-7 (not sure the equivalent for a drow) can be extremely hard to change, because those are survival systems to the brain.
There's a reason why governments like Singapore are building mental health programs for their youth, and it's certainly not out of the good of their hearts. It's because people in good mental health conditions work better, produce more, and suffer less from chronic illnesses that are expensive to treat (including cancer).
quote:
quote:
Basically, it's a society made up entirely of sociopaths. Sociopaths can only thrive when there are highly agreeable people to exploit, but it's an impossible tactic to pull off in a context where no one wants to cooperate and everyone plays the sociopath.
This at least looks like something that would be a coherent argument for someone sharing a relevant theology. I don't, however.
quote:
Because at the end of the day you're left with nothing to exploit, and things quickly crumble.
As opposed to what? Everyone needs resources, in their own way, and would collapse if runs out of them.
Socipathic behavior can work as a "strategy" in our society because there are people that can be exploited by it. If everyone thinks like a sociopath (i.e. remorselessly exploiting others and lying), then no one will be inclined towards cooperation, and when cooperation is scarce, development and production are scarce, thus leading to less resources to exploit and a far quicker collapse. There's no theology here--once again, empathy and cooperation evolved because they are advantageous. My points are exclusively about efficiency, not morality.
quote:
quote:
Moreover, such a society would have massive troubles coming up with the tech or cooperation required to survive in an extremely hostile and resource-scarce environment like the Underdark,
Why? The noble Houses and other power groups are more than capable of pooling resources to encourage valuable contributions and force to, well, enforce necessary cooperation among their own.
Mostly, they'd have to suppress failure modes of insufficient coordination (such as rent seeking and tragedy of commons) in their ranks, and rely on plain self-interest to do the rest. That is, much the same as any other polity.
I've already explained this: research is stifled by a lack of significant sharing and communication, which the drow by all means would display if we took their premise to its logical conclusion. Also, once you enforce a certain mindset, you can't just command people to snap out of it. Especially because communication and cooperation are skills, and have to be learned as early as possible. You have to thoroughly educate people into that mindset, and the drow do the opposite.
Moreover, leave it to the brain to come up with ways to make repressed behaviors and beliefs sneak their way back into the person's actions.
quote:
quote:
yet for some reason the Lolthite drow are described as one of the most technologically and magically advanced civilizations,
Sure. They need to be pretty tough to deal with threats they face (including rival drow groups).
This is the heart of the issue, and why their worldbuilding is just Mary Sue stuff. They have nothing to justify why they're so advanced, they should be the opposite, yet they're advanced "because I say so".
quote:
quote:
not to mention that their foes, despite being very powerful and having superhuman levels of intelligence (take the illithids), almost never try to use their moments of strife or their proclivity to infighting to demolish them.
What? They do. I distinctly remember even barbaric humans doing this! The mitigating factors for that are:
1. The drow are very familiar with this problem (on both ends), thus also familiar with diagnostics and workarounds for it.
2. Due to their troubles with unstable allegiances, the drow tend to be operationally flexible and good at situation awareness.
As a result, they can flip into "horns pointing outwards" position very quickly, and then... well, Dambrath forces managed to enter T'lindhet while the locals were otherwise occupied, but this did hurt them more than the drow.
quote:
And when they do, some deus ex machina comes in to save Menzo.
That's another issue entirely.
And of course, the few times it happens, the drow are always virtually unaffected by it (and the reasons you present for their success don't really work, unless you use massive doses of handwavium; I'll explain why below). They'll only be affected if it's convenient for the plot. Like I said, everything happens "because I say so", leading to 0 believability and to a work that can't be taken seriously.
Re: Menzo (and whoever else) being saved by various deus ex machina, it's just a facet of this very issue, and it goes back to what I said in the previous answers. If you have a society of people who can't cooperate efficiently (or of straight sociopaths, like it happens for Lolthite drow), what makes you think that a situation of danger will have everyone magically coming together to face the enemy just because the commander threw around some threats? No, it will mostly be an "every man for himself" kind of situation, and many could even consider betraying their own side to survive. And when it comes to this, here you have Lolth (or deus ex machina XYZ) descending from the skies (or rising from the depths) and saving the day! Isn't that some amazing storytelling and worldbuilding?
Once again, this is why the worldbuilding behind the drow is so lackluster. It doesn't consider the consequences of its own premises. Hence my original point about author fiat being the sole reason to actually explain why the drow are still around.
quote:
quote:
(or non-narrative altogether, as the drow never pay the consequence of the idiotic setup of their society).
(half-stifled heretical snicker) Unbelievable! Ahem.
Of course they suffer the downsides. Quite often on scales from personal to major power group and occasionally on larger scale (Llurth Dreier, for one). But again, those are "known bugs" to be worked around.
And when they don't, Lolth abandons or actively culls those failing to learn their lessons, before they cost her more. Sshamath may be an extreme example of this.
They don't suffer meaningful downsides. They're portrayed as an apex civilization. Almost everything they do, no matter how stupid, eventually works in their favor. And when it doesn't, oftentimes they don't actually lose anything (because everyone knows war costs nothing, right?). That I recall, the only time they were *shown* suffering some consequences (that were quickly swept after the rug) was after they failed taking Mithral Hall. Overall, they have been doing idiotic bullsh*t for 10k years, yet they have only become more influential for some reason (aka "because I said so").
quote:
quote:
And yes, I know that some authors tried to portray the drow as more nuanced and try to make them make *some* sense at least, but all that was swept under the rug and has remained there for decades in favor of what I can only describe as edgy child's view of evil
Thus, pick what works for you?
Of course, but that's irrelevant to the discussion (and to me as well, since I don't run FR or drow). |
| Athreeren |
Posted - 27 Nov 2022 : 10:27:11
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Meanwhile, the Lolthite sytstem as written is sheer stupidity, and would have collapsed very quickly if not for author fiat.
Why exactly? I don't see it.
Because it's a system where exploitation has no limit. Relationships of any kind have no meaning and trust is taboo (while a dregree of trust is necessary for having a working society or relationship of any kind, including trade), to the point of the existence of things that will just kill a society on the (not so) long run, like rules that state that priestesses can end businesses on a whim, therefore massively discouraging all efforts towards innovation and growth. Exchange of ideas is discouraged as well, and cooperation is null and is hard to enforce even in situation of crisis, because inner strife permeates the society to a ludicrous level (to the point that fighting each other during a battle or while being sieged isn't rare), and people can literally be killed for the lulz. Let's add a society that rises everyone with massive childhood trauma and neglect, which massively incides on people's efficiency. Basically, it's a society made up entirely of sociopaths. Sociopaths can only thrive when there are highly agreeable people to exploit, but it's an impossible tactic to pull off in a context where no one wants to cooperate and everyone plays the sociopath. Because at the end of the day you're left with nothing to exploit, and things quickly crumble.
Moreover, such a society would have massive troubles coming up with the tech or cooperation required to survive in an extremely hostile and resource-scarce environment like the Underdark, yet for some reason the Lolthite drow are described as one of the most technologically and magically advanced civilizations, not to mention that their foes, despite being very powerful and having superhuman levels of intelligence (take the illithids), almost never try to use their moments of strife or their proclivity to infighting to demolish them. And when they do, some deus ex machina comes in to save Menzo. And this has been going on for 10k+ years in lore. It's the definition of "this happens because... Because I say so!" A Mary Sue race and overall poor narrative (or non-narrative altogether, as the drow never pay the consequence of the idiotic setup of their society).
And yes, I know that some authors tried to portray the drow as more nuanced and try to make them make *some* sense at least, but all that was swept under the rug and has remained there for decades in favor of what I can only describe as edgy child's view of evil (as well as other *really* clownish stuff, like those drow from that one Smedman's novel, who let spiders weave their webs in their open mouth, and just stay like that).
TL; DR: limitless exploitation, as well as a worldbuilding that prioritizes the edge factor over understanding the characters and what motivates them, in addition to RAS and WotC sh*tting on any attempt to inject some nuance into the drow, have made them a gigantic clown fiesta.
Menzoberranzan reminds me of 1984: the rulers are sociopaths with absolute power, which lets them abuse citizens in whichever way they like, and nothing can actually topple them. In the case of Menzoberranzan, this absolute power comes from Lolth; the main issue being that nothing prevents the other gods from recruiting worshippers in their dreams and help them coordinate an uprising. If we ignore that though, Menzoberranzan works: Lolth has pushed for a society of stifling order in which she keeps causing chaos, making it an interesting take on chaotic evil (in that it also mocks the very notion of order). And if people try to leave, they get killed by the dangerous environment.
But if we go a bit further, we find other people, who should be competing for the drow's resources. Svirfneblin are presented as a powerful enemy force, probably because the Lolthites need powerful enemies on the outside to legitimate their rule. They're probably not much of a threat, but powerful enough to be presented as such. Yet, nobody in Sorcere is going to share their researches with others, whereas Svirfneblin show a pride in their work that encourages them to share their work with others and build upon each other's: at some point, they should be overpowering the drow. And that's just the Svirfneblin: why don't illithid take over the city? What does the continued existence of Menzoberranzan brings them?
In the end, the strangest thing about the drow is why Lolth is so powerful. If only the drow worship her, and she spends so much of her power making them hate her, how did she remain so powerful for so long? And if that strategy somehow actually works, why don't all evil gods do it? |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 27 Nov 2022 : 09:33:24
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Because it's a system where exploitation has no limit.
Obviously it must have practical limits.
quote:
Relationships of any kind have no meaning and trust is taboo (while a dregree of trust is necessary for having a working society or relationship of any kind, including trade),
Here you seem to confuse maxims and general directions in which someone pointed sometime with praxis.
"All of them! All the time!" is just lolgimmick mentality. I refer you to part 3 of What's Wrong with the World by G. K. Chesterton for mockery thereof.
For this specific case, consider that drow proverb: "Those who watch their backs meet death from the front".
As to the trade, Underdark merchants were said to be quite trustworthy. Their own high-ups rigorously enforce adherence to the agreements, and everyone involved knows this.
quote:
to the point of the existence of things that will just kill a society on the (not so) long run, like rules that state that priestesses can end businesses on a whim, therefore massively discouraging all efforts towards innovation
That's a non-sequitur mounted on top of another non-sequitur.
If someone has power (whether de jure or de facto) to stop cars at will, is "therefore" all trade in cheese massively discouraged? Obviously, it's nonsense.
Specific power is always implicitly restricted: by interests, frameworks... and in case someone gets really unreasonable about it, someone else has power to remove whoever causes the problem from picture, one way or another.
In case of the drow, usually in a way that doubles as a deterrent to others, of course.
As to trade in cheese, it does obviously work better with trucks indeed, but can be conducted without involving trucks at any stage. And was, and to small degree still is.
quote:
and growth.
That's a buzzword, which would more fog than convey meaning even in the context where it was born. In this context the meaning, if any, is fully opaque.
quote:
Exchange of ideas is discouraged as well,
How so? They definitely have sects and fashions.
quote:
and cooperation is null and is hard to enforce even in situation of crisis, because inner strife permeates the society to a ludicrous level (to the point that fighting each other during a battle or while being sieged isn't rare),
True enough. The balance is shifted far toward competition and away from cooperation. Increased competition stimulates forms of development that compensate for inefficiencies of reduced cooperation. The trade-off may or may not be worth it.
All other drow factions think Lolthites are overdoing this, thus themselves at least somewhat shift the balance toward cooperation.
But "suboptimal" is not the same as "non-viable".
The other advantage of their form of competitive theocracy is that since all power is held firmly, within stable groups almost any decision is enforceable from its level down, almost all the time. They may bicker, but they will follow orders of superiors, even high-risk ones.
quote:
and people can literally be killed for the lulz.
That's somehow unique?
quote:
Let's add a society that rises everyone with massive childhood trauma and neglect, which massively incides on people's efficiency.
I don't understand what this was supposed to mean and only hypothesize it would make perfect sense for tumblr regulars.
quote:
Basically, it's a society made up entirely of sociopaths. Sociopaths can only thrive when there are highly agreeable people to exploit, but it's an impossible tactic to pull off in a context where no one wants to cooperate and everyone plays the sociopath.
This at least looks like something that would be a coherent argument for someone sharing a relevant theology. I don't, however.
quote:
Because at the end of the day you're left with nothing to exploit, and things quickly crumble.
As opposed to what? Everyone needs resources, in their own way, and would collapse if runs out of them.
quote:
Moreover, such a society would have massive troubles coming up with the tech or cooperation required to survive in an extremely hostile and resource-scarce environment like the Underdark,
Why? The noble Houses and other power groups are more than capable of pooling resources to encourage valuable contributions and force to, well, enforce necessary cooperation among their own.
Mostly, they'd have to suppress failure modes of insufficient coordination (such as rent seeking and tragedy of commons) in their ranks, and rely on plain self-interest to do the rest. That is, much the same as any other polity.
quote:
yet for some reason the Lolthite drow are described as one of the most technologically and magically advanced civilizations,
Sure. They need to be pretty tough to deal with threats they face (including rival drow groups).
quote:
not to mention that their foes, despite being very powerful and having superhuman levels of intelligence (take the illithids), almost never try to use their moments of strife or their proclivity to infighting to demolish them.
What? They do. I distinctly remember even barbaric humans doing this! The mitigating factors for that are:
1. The drow are very familiar with this problem (on both ends), thus also familiar with diagnostics and workarounds for it.
2. Due to their troubles with unstable allegiances, the drow tend to be operationally flexible and good at situation awareness.
As a result, they can flip into "horns pointing outwards" position very quickly, and then... well, Dambrath forces managed to enter T'lindhet while the locals were otherwise occupied, but this did hurt them more than the drow.
quote:
And when they do, some deus ex machina comes in to save Menzo.
That's another issue entirely.
quote:
(or non-narrative altogether, as the drow never pay the consequence of the idiotic setup of their society).
(half-stifled heretical snicker) Unbelievable! Ahem.
Of course they suffer the downsides. Quite often on scales from personal to major power group and occasionally on larger scale (Llurth Dreier, for one). But again, those are "known bugs" to be worked around.
And when they don't, Lolth abandons or actively culls those failing to learn their lessons, before they cost her more. Sshamath may be an extreme example of this.
quote:
And yes, I know that some authors tried to portray the drow as more nuanced and try to make them make *some* sense at least, but all that was swept under the rug and has remained there for decades in favor of what I can only describe as edgy child's view of evil
Thus, pick what works for you? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 27 Nov 2022 : 04:08:34
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Meanwhile, the Lolthite sytstem as written is sheer stupidity, and would have collapsed very quickly if not for author fiat.
Why exactly? I don't see it.
Because it's a system where exploitation has no limit. Relationships of any kind have no meaning and trust is taboo (while a dregree of trust is necessary for having a working society or relationship of any kind, including trade), to the point of the existence of things that will just kill a society on the (not so) long run, like rules that state that priestesses can end businesses on a whim, therefore massively discouraging all efforts towards innovation and growth. Exchange of ideas is discouraged as well, and cooperation is null and is hard to enforce even in situation of crisis, because inner strife permeates the society to a ludicrous level (to the point that fighting each other during a battle or while being sieged isn't rare), and people can literally be killed for the lulz. Let's add a society that rises everyone with massive childhood trauma and neglect, which massively incides on people's efficiency. Basically, it's a society made up entirely of sociopaths. Sociopaths can only thrive when there are highly agreeable people to exploit, but it's an impossible tactic to pull off in a context where no one wants to cooperate and everyone plays the sociopath. Because at the end of the day you're left with nothing to exploit, and things quickly crumble.
Moreover, such a society would have massive troubles coming up with the tech or cooperation required to survive in an extremely hostile and resource-scarce environment like the Underdark, yet for some reason the Lolthite drow are described as one of the most technologically and magically advanced civilizations, not to mention that their foes, despite being very powerful and having superhuman levels of intelligence (take the illithids), almost never try to use their moments of strife or their proclivity to infighting to demolish them. And when they do, some deus ex machina comes in to save Menzo. And this has been going on for 10k+ years in lore. It's the definition of "this happens because... Because I say so!" A Mary Sue race and overall poor narrative (or non-narrative altogether, as the drow never pay the consequence of the idiotic setup of their society).
And yes, I know that some authors tried to portray the drow as more nuanced and try to make them make *some* sense at least, but all that was swept under the rug and has remained there for decades in favor of what I can only describe as edgy child's view of evil (as well as other *really* clownish stuff, like those drow from that one Smedman's novel, who let spiders weave their webs in their open mouth, and just stay like that).
TL; DR: limitless exploitation, as well as a worldbuilding that prioritizes the edge factor over understanding the characters and what motivates them, in addition to RAS and WotC sh*tting on any attempt to inject some nuance into the drow, have made them a gigantic clown fiesta. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 27 Nov 2022 : 01:02:05
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
And wow, I was even surprised RAS deigned to invoke the name of Eilistraee as a patron of a particular character. Heh, though he didn't really delve into it much at all, but at least he's not completely pretending Eilistraee doesn't exist.
IMO it worked... in the sense that Drizzt in his attitudes was essentially a drow version of emo teen. Aversion to his own kind, gloom, doom, "nobody understands meee" and all that. 
Even the cool Finnish lady snagged him only by accident. He had no idea of what to do once he got away, and then met a cool old dude to imitate. She was presented and happened to be a goddess who does not poke her followers with sticks all the time. But how much did this change?
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Meanwhile, the Lolthite sytstem as written is sheer stupidity, and would have collapsed very quickly if not for author fiat.
Why exactly? I don't see it. |
| redking |
Posted - 26 Nov 2022 : 11:28:13
I read Glacier's Edge. Let's see. The ruling class of Menzoberranzan has had a sudden change of heart and is now against Lolth. RAS lazily attempts to produce a rationale for this inexplicable turn of events, fails, and when I read it I got the impression that RAS is sullenly telling the reader, "this is happening because I said it is".
Character motivations for long existing characters like Quenthel make no sense at all. Character interactions among the drow of Menzoberranzan are nonsensical. If someone told me this novel was ghost written by a fanfic writer, I could believe it. 1/5 stars. |
| TKU |
Posted - 15 Nov 2022 : 04:47:04
quote:
Originally posted by VaxarKun
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
TL; DR. The Lolthite drow didn't evolve (or fall) in any believable way for 30+ years, why are we expecting believability now? A total rewrite is the best solution tbh. The problem is that the new drow setting is just as uncompelling and low effort as the old.
While it's generally hard to argue with this, I do want to mention that I for one quite liked that small part in recent RAS books that indicates that the drow were corrupted slowly and weren't always the murderhobos they are now.
I just refuse to believe it was all within Yvonnel 1.0's timeline. That would mean Menzoberranzan entire history 2000 years, which is not much if you live for 500-800 years. My headcanon is that the illithids combined her memories with someone from the actual start of menzoberranzan when they gave them to Quenthel and later Yvonnel 2.0 so that it has greater effect on them since they believe its their mother/grandmother's memories instead of some random drow. Since the characters always seem to question the accuracy & legitimacy of that memory, it doesnt seem too far off imo.
Yeah, this retcons the original founding of Menzoberranzan story, where IIRC Menzoberra leads refugees from another drow city that was destroyed, founds the city (which it gets its name from her) then gets killed in a civil war, after which House Nasadra goes its own separate way with its followers and founds Ched Nasad, while those who remained in Menzoberranzan banded around house Baenre.
Menzoberranzan was originally a third generation drow city and there were still a few around that were much older.
My thinking is that WOTC/RAS didn't want Menzo to be second fiddle' to anyone so hence the retconned lore where Menzo is the original (only?) 'drow' city and officially now and always in the past the center of all things evil-drow and Lolth related. Which is a shame because Menzoberranzan and house Baenre already cast too long a shadow over all things concerning drow, IMO. Making Yvonnel *the* most important drow to ever live for being the supreme ruler of the drow essentially for all their history is just nuts and completely destroys so much writing potential. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 15 Nov 2022 : 01:48:57
quote:
Originally posted by VaxarKun
I for one quite liked that small part in recent RAS books that indicates that the drow were corrupted slowly and weren't always the murderhobos they are now.
It's always been like this, it's not something RAS came up with. The old explanations also works far better, because the Ilythiiri were driven by fear of being subject to the same fate as the Miyeritari, to look for power from whoever would lend it to them. Drastic situations call for drastic measures and all. However, the kind of corruption that came after the exile was just dumb. It's also in the interest of the corrupted people to keep your society working to a degree, otherwise what the hell do you have left to exploit? Especially a society that doesn't have a big, main source of income (say, oil), and has to rely on the performance of its citizens to get things done.
Meanwhile, the Lolthite sytstem as written is sheer stupidity, and would have collapsed very quickly if not for author fiat.
quote:
I just refuse to believe it was all within Yvonnel 1.0's timeline. That would mean Menzoberranzan entire history 2000 years, which is not much if you live for 500-800 years. My headcanon is that the illithids combined her memories with someone from the actual start of menzoberranzan when they gave them to Quenthel and later Yvonnel 2.0 so that it has greater effect on them since they believe its their mother/grandmother's memories instead of some random drow. Since the characters always seem to question the accuracy & legitimacy of that memory, it doesnt seem too far off imo.
RAS is retconning the whole history of drow and elves with something far more trivial and uninteresting. We were told as much in 2021--he said that he wasn't retconning his Menzo, but then gave us a version of drow history that entirely erases the one that the FR had. |
| VaxarKun |
Posted - 14 Nov 2022 : 11:40:16
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
TL; DR. The Lolthite drow didn't evolve (or fall) in any believable way for 30+ years, why are we expecting believability now? A total rewrite is the best solution tbh. The problem is that the new drow setting is just as uncompelling and low effort as the old.
While it's generally hard to argue with this, I do want to mention that I for one quite liked that small part in recent RAS books that indicates that the drow were corrupted slowly and weren't always the murderhobos they are now.
I just refuse to believe it was all within Yvonnel 1.0's timeline. That would mean Menzoberranzan entire history 2000 years, which is not much if you live for 500-800 years. My headcanon is that the illithids combined her memories with someone from the actual start of menzoberranzan when they gave them to Quenthel and later Yvonnel 2.0 so that it has greater effect on them since they believe its their mother/grandmother's memories instead of some random drow. Since the characters always seem to question the accuracy & legitimacy of that memory, it doesnt seem too far off imo. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 Nov 2022 : 06:32:58
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Also, personally the developments in Menzoberranzan are not great imo, as every sign seems to indicate that it will radically change within the next books. Say what you will of Lolth, but I find it hard to imagine that RAS will succeed at all in making it an interesting place without worship of the Spider Queen. Not to mention this is a quite iconic part of the Realms. And it is quite jarring seeing the Baenre and long established characters like Quenthel just completely nonchalantly throwing away the worship of Lolth, as if it were a fabric of clothing.
This. They have only known her worship for generations. She's sent manifestations there. They know she is real and to be feared. But now we can nonchalantly just shrug our shoulders and move on. The houses lower down on the power rung, Fey-Branche and Tuin'tarl, would be licking their lips and promising Lolth everything for her favour in hopes of gaining greater power.
-- George Krashos
To be fair, when you start with something that was written with little to no attention to believability, trying to make the transition believable kinda loses its meaning. it might even be impossible, given that the Lolthite drow are a bunch of clichés about evil lumped together, and their existence in-universe only continues due to author fiat. Some authors (like Ed or Elaine) tried adding nuance to the drow, but all of that was always irrelevant to RAS' drow, and RAS' drow are the starting point of what we're getting now. Something that isn't believable will hardly lead to a believable development.
Even if you try, there will always be underlying issues like: yeah, what were these dudes doing for the previous ten millennia? The situation hasn't changed if compared to, like, 1k years ago. Heck, a lot opf key figures are people that were around centuries ago. Why only now? Where did the mass epiphany come from?
Also, how is the new governing system going to be any better than the previous one? If you look at revolutions against sh*thole governments, the replacement is often worse or just the same as before. That's because the success of the revolution, as well as staying in power, requires having the support of key people/organizations (military, finances, etc...), and those key figures will be mostly the same people from before the revolution. In the case of the drow, they will still be the same ridiculous caricatures as before, will still be pursuing their interests while neglecting even the basic levels of wellbeing of the population, will still intentionally stifle the development of their society like they canonically did before, will still be acting on their sadism, and whatever else. In short, they will still be the same uninteresting psychopaths that handled things before the revolution (mostly without the surface level charisma that psychopaths tend to have, to make it even less interesting). That is unless you do a wholesale upheaval and demolish all of your society. But that's really hard, and it will get your revolution a lot of resistance, because it leads to other terrible consequences. Starting with generating a lack of essential infrastructures (if you dismantle the key organizations, rebuilding them requires competence, time, resources), insane cost in lives and wellbeing, and so on. On top of that, the drow are surrounded by enemies. Why aren't they intervening to curbstomp the Lolthites into the ground while they're killing each other?
Not only that, having an antagonist with such a ridiculous position only harms the believability of your revolution. A protagonist is only as deep and interesting as their antagonist is; a bad antagonist makes for a boring story, or for banality. Once again, any kind of believability flies straight out of the window, as the whole story turns into the "heroes" being like "you are so, SO evil. Don't you know that kicking puppies and eating kittens is bad?" (or the legendary "Stop! People die when they are killed!") with no room for anything more involving than that kind of banality. And all characters who oppose Lolth suffer in terms of development, because what the hell do you have to develop, when your character has already acquired the truth? A Lolthite society that makes sense and doesn't mostly have bad and self-destructive stuff, would suddenly make the main conflict more layered, and all the characters involved feel much more real.
Basically, you start from a point of 0 believability, you can't get a believable development--you have to handwave tons of issues no matter what.
TL; DR. The Lolthite drow didn't evolve (or fall) in any believable way for 30+ years, why are we expecting believability now? A total rewrite is the best solution tbh. The problem is that the new drow setting is just as uncompelling and low effort as the old. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 Nov 2022 : 06:18:37
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Ironically, he's also said Drizzt isn't the only good drow, so...
That's kinda the point of him feeling like the rug was pulled from under his feet. He comes off as he wanted to be the *only* person doing good drow. My take is that his issue isn't about Drizzt having company, as much it is about other people being the ones to introduce said company.
It surely would explain while he went full "all drow are crap except Drizzt and a handful others", until he was greenlit to be the only one to decide what the drow are. Also, it would explain all his statements and his claim to be the one to have created the drow, that *his* vision is the one coming into the setting (which discredits many authors that tried to make the drow nuanced), etc... |
|
|
