| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Halidan |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 18:38:31
Have the coins of Myth Drannor ever been described in any source material?
Specifically, I'm curious about what images (pictures and text) were on the front and back of the coins - and if those images changed after the death of the last Coronal.
Thanks in advance. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 01 Feb 2022 : 02:22:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It'd be fun to have a PC patron say "go kill this monster, keep what you want of its treasure, but there's a small chest and its contents that I want.".
Only if the patron resembles the dry, formal, dangerously polite "Client" guy from the Mandalorian. "I wish to acquire a certain asset. And I am told you have an unmatched reputation for procuring such delicate things in these difficult times." |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Jan 2022 : 14:43:34
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
I think the confusion came in because I'd made three different types of coins for Myth Drannor's start & height. Note that those racist coins were immediately removed from circulation, their molds destroyed, and the two elves responsible for the slur (in carving the designs and approving their minting) were censured then tried and exiled from Myth Drannor when found the racism was intentional on their part.
Now, I'm leaving exactly what type of elf, what family they're from, and to where they're exiled intentionally BLANK for DMs to make of this what they will. To name or even say which type of elf these two were would affect elven family dynamics and racial politics in print to name them. Make them Starym if you want, as they're already a tainted and corrupt bunch; send them to the Eldreth Veluthra or some other "racially pure" malcontents. I'm simply clarifying that an exceedingly rare collectible in the Realms would be one of those 5000 coins (1000 of each metal)…and while they're more likely worth 300 times their weight now, given their rarity, they'd probably be worth 2-3x as much again to those who continue to hold racist views about other races. (In fact, that could also become a plot point—if there's rumors of coded racism in the use of particular coins, watch what money changes hands and PCs might get some clues to track down who's working for whatever dark powers are in vogue for your campaigns.)
Wait, so I was right? I know someone said I was, but I didn't realize they really meant it.
I mean.... SEE Soensosays, the armchair sage, DOES know what he's talking about. Yes, step right up here folks. Want facts? Step right up. Plop down a silver right here and I'll make up fresh new facts for anyone that needs them. One hundred percent true to my ears facts, for the simple price of just one tiny silver piece! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 23:37:26
I like the idea of ancient coins having more value to collectors... It'd be fun to have a PC patron say "go kill this monster, keep what you want of its treasure, but there's a small chest and its contents that I want." The PCs will of course look, and be puzzled by why their patron doesn't care for any of the other thousands of coins and just wants a small chest with maybe 50 or 100 coins in it.
Also, I have a character with an interest in Myth Drannor, so I'm thinking I want him to have a Myth Drannor coin, perhaps fashioned into a necklace. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 23:14:14
D&D does provide magics (and psionics) like identify, psychometry, legend lore, augury, etc. Along with special thief and bard abilities which can appraise or determine the origins of any item, even common items like coins.
There are likely to be sages, scholars, historians, collectors, metallurgists, and bankers who possess specialized knowledge related to coinage pedigrees. And, for obsessive players, there are likely to be skills or proficiencies their favourite PCs or NPCs can learn.
I imagine a trip to the local church of Waukeen can be very informative, for a nominal donation. I don't know why it really matters - a coin is a coin, the "standard weight" idea is meant to make it a fungible commodity - aside from determining the coin's exact value for the purpose of trade or in obtaining a coin with some particular quality for the purpose of magic (alchemy, past or future divination, enchantment, illusion, time travel, whatever). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 23:00:37
I like the idea of the seal of Myth Drannor being on the other side. Do we know what this seal was? |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 20:19:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's still a little confusing... Are only the last racial coins oblong?
Also, what's on the other side? Is the date anywhere on the coin, or any other indication of when it was minted?
ALL coins minted by the United Peoples of Myth Drannor during its life and fall are oblong, and while it's nonstandard, that definition to me means they're more oval than rectangular.
The noted stamp can either be on both sides of the coin OR the seal/emblem/sigil of Myth Drannor could be stamped on the opposite side.
There are rarely if any direct indications of when any coin is minted, as that's something about which only humans tend to worry. ;)
Alternately, the MD coins in YOUR Realms could have hints and ways to identify when a coin was minted, if you so chose. Flipsides of the coins could also have other ways to identify timing from having the Coronal's mark to a symbol for the Ruling Council. Your choices, I'm just providing the basics on IDing what coins come from where and relatively when, not specifically.
SES |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 18:46:21
It's still a little confusing... Are only the last racial coins oblong?
Also, what's on the other side? Is the date anywhere on the coin, or any other indication of when it was minted? |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 18:26:02
Wonderful Steven!
One nit: It's Dunultokllur. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 17:58:46
One more followup: Ed's coinage from the Ruins of Myth Drannor (as noted by Kragen2179) wasn't duplicated by me in the Arcane Age product for one simple reason: I forgot to check and use that established lore that he'd already put in place, nor did my editor catch that.
So, explanations? I'll defer to Ed whenever possible and take his lore over mine. That said, the sheelba, lionars, and tsargan are such odd shapes that to make them standard coins would be both more expensive and less preferable by shape (edges or points catch on things, are harder to extract from coin purses, or even poke through said purses and cause one to lose coins).
Given their odd shapes and particular details, I'd suggest as a lore patch (to cover my own oversights 25 years ago) that yes, these particular types of coins were from late in Myth Drannor's lifespan and minted closer to the Fall than other types. They were also minted in limited quantities in commemoration of some event in particular—How about the Year of Orcsfall to celebrate the alliance with Dalesmen to defeat the orc horde that threatened Cormanthyr & the Dales? That makes a year or two of coins minted in Myth Drannor among the centuries of minting those other kinds of coins.
Clear as mud? So like the Realms, then.
Steven |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 17:34:56
Had to go back to my Cormanthyr PDF to see who wrote that section (C’est moi!) and then reread the whole thing, not just lone sentences, as I’ve rarely ever been one to get concise and short explanations of anything.
Bear in mind this is also me annotating material I wrote a quarter-century ago, and I’m not the same person I was, so I might have to amend my younger self…
[ORIGINAL ARCANE AGE CORMANTHYR Text p63; bold emphasis is mine]
Myth Drannor’s coins are newer than the others, only stamped and made since the raising of the mythal, and they tend to be oblong with a stamped design at their centers. The majority of the money are standard weight, round coins stamped with a sling, an overflowing, tankard, or a halfling head in profile (cp); two crossed axes, a trio of gems, or a helmed dwarf in profile (sp); two clashing short swords, a smoking pipe, or a bespectacled gnome in profile (ep); two crossed spears, a pile of scrolls, or a human wizardess in profile (gp); and two clashing long swords, a star surmounted by a pair of clasped hands of friendship, or an elf female in profile (pp).
While there is no difference in stamped coin types in precious metals or their weight, there are social connotations that have grown and become involved in the use of particular coins. The first coins mentioned under each metal are weapons; used mostly by tradesmen and commoners, these coins are symbols of the fight for peace (to those who like N’Tel’Quess) or as a symbol of a threat of punishment the buyer makes against the seller (to those who dislike N’Tel’Quess). The second coins are all what elves saw as “representative boons of the race” used mostly among the nobility and the royals, they are neutral in meaning but have a prestige in their use, due to lesser mintings of this type of coin. The final coins are simply stamped with a member of each race in profile and these are extremely rare, as only 1,000 of each were made in the first years of Myth Drannor. They were discontinued as the still-tentative races saw their value in elves’ eyes stamped before them in the relative worth of the coins; their rarity makes their worth more than 100 times their trade weight, and moreso outside of Cormanthyr.
Cormanthyr’s coinage is the same trade weight as all other coins, though they are slightly thicker, in a square shape, and they have diamond-shaped holes in each coin’s center with points centering along the coin’s edges. Each is named specifically, and on the face of each coin are four identical moon elven runes to identify the coin’s name (allowing those robbed of sight the ability to discern coins): thalvers (t; cp), bedoars (b; sp) thammarchs (th; ep), shilmaers (sh; gp), and ruendils (r; pp). These are common due to their widespread use as military script for all elven akh’velahrn and akh’faern, and they have become the common trade currency between elven communities. Unnoticed by most nonelves, small dots and dashes can be scored into the center edges of the coin’s inner hole, and this tactile language communicates secrets between those who know how to read this elven code-dialect. [END QUOTE]
I think the confusion came in because I'd made three different types of coins for Myth Drannor's start & height. Note that those racist coins were immediately removed from circulation, their molds destroyed, and the two elves responsible for the slur (in carving the designs and approving their minting) were censured then tried and exiled from Myth Drannor when found the racism was intentional on their part.
Now, I'm leaving exactly what type of elf, what family they're from, and to where they're exiled intentionally BLANK for DMs to make of this what they will. To name or even say which type of elf these two were would affect elven family dynamics and racial politics in print to name them. Make them Starym if you want, as they're already a tainted and corrupt bunch; send them to the Eldreth Veluthra or some other "racially pure" malcontents. I'm simply clarifying that an exceedingly rare collectible in the Realms would be one of those 5000 coins (1000 of each metal)…and while they're more likely worth 300 times their weight now, given their rarity, they'd probably be worth 2-3x as much again to those who continue to hold racist views about other races. (In fact, that could also become a plot point—if there's rumors of coded racism in the use of particular coins, watch what money changes hands and PCs might get some clues to track down who's working for whatever dark powers are in vogue for your campaigns.)
Now, the OTHER TWO types of MD coins became the standard coin of the realm throughout Myth Drannor's living existence.
The weapon-stamped coins are the most common (having been minted at three times the amount of other types) and are worth their standard weight.
The "racial boons" coins with tankards, gems, pipes, scrolls, and clasped hands are considered twice their standard weight/worth to those who bother to notice them and understand their provenance and relative rarity.
Bear in mind, also, that DMs who establish there's collectible value from rarity is opening one helluva can of worms, because then ANY fallen realm's coins should have their own established collectors' markets and their own worth depending on who's across the table from you with coins to sell or buy. Age of coins would also inflate their worth as well, and THAT would seriously mess with trying to establish treasure amounts.
Finding coins from Dunoltoklur could be more important to a dwarf than any trade coinage otherwise found in Yartar (the city built atop the ruins of Dunoltoklur), for sure. That said, there's a reason why coinage relies on weight and relative worth of metals—it's madness to ascribe worth by where or by whom or when it was made. The emotional weight of a coin is entirely up to DMs and players and their PCs.
As so many of us here know in our hearts, sometimes the worth of having something because you care about what it represents is worth far more than others might believe. Thus is the curse and blessing of the collector.
Also, good luck getting merchants to believe that a coin is worth more because of its history or provenance when they're merely going by the weight on the scales for doing business.
From my current perspective, it'd be fun (though a burden on one's word counts) to describe particular coins that might stand out in a treasure hoard and allow the PCs the fun of finding clues about the Realms that way. (There's a massive pile of Cormyrean and Impiltran coins in this dragon's hoard, so what's with this small chest with two silver necklaces with matching silver bracelets and a small bag of pristine 20 platinum pieces? Finding out later the coins were from Tethyr and stamped to commemorate the wedding of Queen Zarandra and King Haedrak might help identify the attribution of those bits of enchanted jewelry…)
Last note for a subtle thing from 25 years past—older Cormanthyran coinage is noted as thicker, which means they're noticeably smaller in size from standard coins since then to maintain the same amount of coin weight as larger coins. Think the difference in size between a US nickel and a quarter for visual example.
Steven
who's now got strange ideas on how to hide yet more Realmslore in the tiniest of places…
PS: I'll posit that Candlekeep mints their own coinage, melting down all coins they receive from outside and recasting them for use; this allows them to hide whether or not they accept coins from Thay or Zhentil Keep or even Underdark monies. The coins have a closed book on one side, the crest of Candlekeep on the other; this design has stayed consistent and standard for more than a millennium. They're smaller and thicker than normal trade coins, as the Calendar of Harptos year name gets stamped around the coin edge. Mind you, it's not readable to any but Candlekeep's Avowed or those they've taught, as the script used is the keep's unique shorthand that can tightly transcribe much in few symbols.
|
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 16:15:40
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
As I understand it, the Ruins of Myth Drannor coins are actually the coins of Myth Drannor after the death of Eltargrim/Aravae and the formation of the ruling council. Minted to denote that change in authority.
It's clear that Steven or Kevin Melka mis-wrote the section in "Cormanthyr" in the sense that the oblong coins are the Cormanthyr coins and the round ones are the Myth Drannor coins.
It's as simple as that.
-- George Krashos
Probably that simple, but I'll go back and reread what I wrote and see if I can clarify… |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 30 Jan 2022 : 02:50:03
As I understand it, the Ruins of Myth Drannor coins are actually the coins of Myth Drannor after the death of Eltargrim/Aravae and the formation of the ruling council. Minted to denote that change in authority.
It's clear that Steven or Kevin Melka mis-wrote the section in "Cormanthyr" in the sense that the oblong coins are the Cormanthyr coins and the round ones are the Myth Drannor coins.
It's as simple as that.
-- George Krashos
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 29 Jan 2022 : 12:15:31
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So from this I infer that the racist elves considered
[ . . . ]
The problem became the other races inferred the same thing, so after minting the first thousand.... there was a big broohaha about it
Most likely, it was worse than this. Some elves just used designs that "celebrate the Opening" without a second thought and didn't see the big broohaha coming. They were the only ones for whom this was not obvious.
Merely another episode of classical elven diplomacy in canon. It's consistently on "facepalm" level. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jan 2022 : 00:01:50
quote:
Originally posted by Kragen2179
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Kragen2179
According to C:EoE p63
The majority of the money are standard weight, round coins stamped with a sling, an overflowing, tankard, or a halfling head in profile (cp); two crossed axes, a trio of gems, or a helmed dwarf in profile (sp); two clashing short swords, a smoking pipe, or a bespectacled gnome in profile (ep); two crossed spears, a pile of scrolls, or a human wizardess in profile (gp); and two clashing long swords, a star surmounted by a pair of clasped hands of friendship, or an elf female in profile (pp).
The final coins are simply stamped with a member of each race in profile and these are extremely rare, as only 1,000 of each were made in the first years of Myth Drannor.
So from this I infer that the racist elves considered halflings useless, dwarves only useful for what they can do, gnomes better than dwarves (probably due to their skill with gem cutting), humans only useful if they are female and wizardesses, and elves to be the most valuable of all. The problem became the other races inferred the same thing, so after minting the first thousand.... there was a big broohaha about it and they quit that minting. That's why so many of these coins were collected by the Eldreth Veluuthra and turned into simple jewelry or special tokens that could be used to clandestinely reveal who they worked with.
Soensosays the self-proclaimed armchair sage, known for hanging out with Mendacity Calumniator of Nimbral at Miss Reprezentashyn's Bar and Brothelry
Thats pretty much what the book says quote:
They were discontinued as the still-tentative races saw their value in elves#146; eyes stamped before them in the relative worth of the coins;
The biggest thing that I am having trouble getting my head around is that to me it seems the round and oblong coins were probably produced at a similar time, but if a coin "TENDS" to be oblong, how can the "MAJORITY" be round?
As was already noted: the oblong coins were of a newer minting. There were more round coins, already in circulation, when the oblong coins were minted. |
| Kragen2179 |
Posted - 28 Jan 2022 : 22:04:16
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Kragen2179
According to C:EoE p63
The majority of the money are standard weight, round coins stamped with a sling, an overflowing, tankard, or a halfling head in profile (cp); two crossed axes, a trio of gems, or a helmed dwarf in profile (sp); two clashing short swords, a smoking pipe, or a bespectacled gnome in profile (ep); two crossed spears, a pile of scrolls, or a human wizardess in profile (gp); and two clashing long swords, a star surmounted by a pair of clasped hands of friendship, or an elf female in profile (pp).
The final coins are simply stamped with a member of each race in profile and these are extremely rare, as only 1,000 of each were made in the first years of Myth Drannor.
So from this I infer that the racist elves considered halflings useless, dwarves only useful for what they can do, gnomes better than dwarves (probably due to their skill with gem cutting), humans only useful if they are female and wizardesses, and elves to be the most valuable of all. The problem became the other races inferred the same thing, so after minting the first thousand.... there was a big broohaha about it and they quit that minting. That's why so many of these coins were collected by the Eldreth Veluuthra and turned into simple jewelry or special tokens that could be used to clandestinely reveal who they worked with.
Soensosays the self-proclaimed armchair sage, known for hanging out with Mendacity Calumniator of Nimbral at Miss Reprezentashyn's Bar and Brothelry
Thats pretty much what the book says quote:
They were discontinued as the still-tentative races saw their value in elves#146; eyes stamped before them in the relative worth of the coins;
The biggest thing that I am having trouble getting my head around is that to me it seems the round and oblong coins were probably produced at a similar time, but if a coin "TENDS" to be oblong, how can the "MAJORITY" be round? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jan 2022 : 13:23:16
quote:
Originally posted by Kragen2179
According to C:EoE p63
The majority of the money are standard weight, round coins stamped with a sling, an overflowing, tankard, or a halfling head in profile (cp); two crossed axes, a trio of gems, or a helmed dwarf in profile (sp); two clashing short swords, a smoking pipe, or a bespectacled gnome in profile (ep); two crossed spears, a pile of scrolls, or a human wizardess in profile (gp); and two clashing long swords, a star surmounted by a pair of clasped hands of friendship, or an elf female in profile (pp).
The final coins are simply stamped with a member of each race in profile and these are extremely rare, as only 1,000 of each were made in the first years of Myth Drannor.
So from this I infer that the racist elves considered halflings useless, dwarves only useful for what they can do, gnomes better than dwarves (probably due to their skill with gem cutting), humans only useful if they are female and wizardesses, and elves to be the most valuable of all. The problem became the other races inferred the same thing, so after minting the first thousand.... there was a big broohaha about it and they quit that minting. That's why so many of these coins were collected by the Eldreth Veluuthra and turned into simple jewelry or special tokens that could be used to clandestinely reveal who they worked with.
Soensosays the self-proclaimed armchair sage, known for hanging out with Mendacity Calumniator of Nimbral at Miss Reprezentashyn's Bar and Brothelry |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Jan 2022 : 06:04:59
Cormanthyr describes the coins which were minted and circulated after the mythal was raised. I think "the majority of the money" is not "all of the money" ever produced in the city.
Myth Drannor Adventures describes treasures which might be found within. They could be locally-minted currencies from any era. They could even be coins in circulation before Myth Drannor proper existed - since the people living there had to use some kind of currencies for trade and commerce during the many years it would've taken to construct the mint and everything else. They could be holdovers from earlier kingdoms and nations. They could be "standard weight" coins imported from any other places the elves traded with.
Finally, coins can be referenced by all sorts of names, even by multiple names. Maybe they're called Sheelba and Lionars or Teardrops and Sundrops, Tsargans or Axeheads, etc. Think how many different names we have for each of the coins and bills we use - how many more different names are used in other regions or even other nations - how many different names were used historically. A penny and a dollar can have different names in different times and places. |
| Kragen2179 |
Posted - 28 Jan 2022 : 03:59:05
Apologies for necroing this thread, I have also reached out via twitter to Ed Greenwood but have yet to receive a reply.
I am looking for some clarification on the coins of Myth Drannor as the wording in Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves is confusing.
First my knowledge of Myth Drannor is shaky at best, but I believe that it was not called such until the raising of the Mythal in 261DR?
According to C:EoE p63
quote:
Myth Drannor's coins are newer than the others, only stamped and made since the raising of the mythal, and they tend to be oblong with a stamped design at their centers.
Directly after that it says this
quote:
The majority of the money are standard weight, round coins stamped with a sling, an overflowing, tankard, or a halfling head in profile (cp); two crossed axes, a trio of gems, or a helmed dwarf in profile (sp); two clashing short swords, a smoking pipe, or a bespectacled gnome in profile (ep); two crossed spears, a pile of scrolls, or a human wizardess in profile (gp); and two clashing long swords, a star surmounted by a pair of clasped hands of friendship, or an elf female in profile (pp).
There follows a description of the three different styles of (what I assume are round) coin ending with
quote:
The final coins are simply stamped with a member of each race in profile and these are extremely rare, as only 1,000 of each were made in the first years of Myth Drannor.
The fact that these round coins were producedin the early years of Myth Drannor seems to directly contradict the first quote.
Finally, in Myth Drannor Adventures p33, from the Ruins of Myth Drannor Boxed Set, Platinum coins are desrcibed as Sheelba and are teardrop shaped, gold coins are called lionars and have a sun on one side and a lion on the other (I presume these are round), and silver coins called tsargan, shaped like an axe head. Considering these coins are found in the ruins, it would be safe to assume they are from the final years of Myth Drannor, but I would really love to know the distinction between the oblong and round coins mentioned in Cormantyr: Empire of Elves |
| Halidan |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 16:22:00
My deepest thanks to both Kalin and George.
The darnest thing is the fact I had look through Schend's Cormanthor book twice before I posted the question to the board. Missed the page on coins both times. Must be getting old and forgetful. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 14:17:42
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
This topic is covered in significant detail in Steven Schend's "Cormanthyr" sourcebook with distinctions drawn between the coins of Cormanthyr (pre 261 DR) and the coins of the Myth Drannor period.
-- George Krashos
 <--that I remembered correctly!!! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 04:39:12
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
This topic is covered in significant detail in Steven Schend's "Cormanthyr" sourcebook with distinctions drawn between the coins of Cormanthyr (pre 261 DR) and the coins of the Myth Drannor period.
-- George Krashos
And it is, of course, available for free from the Wizards downloads page.  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 00:54:16
This topic is covered in significant detail in Steven Schend's "Cormanthyr" sourcebook with distinctions drawn between the coins of Cormanthyr (pre 261 DR) and the coins of the Myth Drannor period.
-- George Krashos
|
| Silvanus79 |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 18:53:17
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
It has not been detailed as far as I can remember; information that specific is alas seldom found in the source books. This sounds like a great one for Ed or Steven.
Or perhaps, as DM, you can come up with something. It would be interesting to determine which era of Myth Drannor the coins come from by the specific Coronal minted on the face of the coin. I think the standard D&D GP is far downplayed. After all, you can learn a lot by looking at an assassin's pouch. If he's got Zhent coins, he may have been hired by Zhentil Keep, cuing the PCs to the fact that they have someone powerful ticked at them. Or perhaps someone wants them to think they do...
Anyhow, I digress. I think coins are fascintating descriptors of historical eras. I say have some fun with it and make it relevant to whatever in Myth Drannor's history you are wanting to explore! |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 18:44:04
It has not been detailed as far as I can remember; information that specific is alas seldom found in the source books. This sounds like a great one for Ed or Steven. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 18:40:51
I don't know about images but I think the Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves discusses currency... |
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