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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Seethyr Posted - 24 Oct 2020 : 15:12:27
Iím curious what regions of the world we just literally have no idea whatís going on since the Spellplague or earlier? I further wonder if they will ever be explored again, but thereís no way to know such things. Do we have any clue for example how the Shining South is doing?
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Seethyr Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 17:45:29
I think what really bothered me is that it played out like a great sourcebook, but not a great novel. There was simply no conclusion to the story, itís like the author hit his page limit and had to just stop. I remember seeing five pages remaining or so and being like ďhow Iím the world are they going to conclude this?!!Ē The truth is they didnít. Without a sequel even, that was just aggravating. So Iíll tone down my rhetoric about earlier in the book. I guess if it wasnít good I wouldnít have been so disappointed.
cpthero2 Posted - 25 Jan 2021 : 05:43:18
Great Reader sleyvas and Senior Scribe Seethyr,

I completed reading the novel, Faces of Deception, and I have to say: it was a very enjoyable read. I'm not shocked to hear that it was not well received based on particular comments made here within this scroll.

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Yeah the book was bad and the ending even worse (or lack thereof). However, it did pique my interest in the region. I saw potential that was wasted. A backbone of an idea that was never developed properly.


I'd be curious to hear why you felt the book was bad, as it appears you felt it was bad in general.

As to the ending, I actually thought the ending was done extremely well. If you go back to what The Sannyasi said, Atreus would leave the vale. The way I saw Atreus depart the vale with Rishi in that boat, made me think of the inability for Seema and Atreus to be together. It was harsh, a bit hopeless, and left me feeling like the story was an open ended, but hopeless story. I loved that ending.

It was great because it wasn't like every other story that finishes everything up nice and neat with a bow on top. The frustration with the ending was really appealing to me.

Great Reader sleyvas
quote:
Yeah, that's how I basically felt. It tittered on exploring the area, giving it a feel that was unlike most places in the realms.


Yeah, that's part of what I loved about it. It was described specifically in the novel that it would take a very long time to even touch understanding the expanse of the vale, but they only had a handful of days there. I think in that regard, it was done well. The mystery of that vale was definitely part of the appeal, at least for me.

quote:
I was surprised to find fiendish beings in the area.


I felt this was quite apropos. Devils and demons especially, are always looking to defile the most holy, untouched places. The fact that they are seeking it out for their own gain, seems to suit their perverted ethical and moral outlook in life, as well as to benefit them. Seemed like a legit inclusion of a bad guy, and one that would have the resources to actually find it. It was said in Dragon Annual #3 that the location "known only to a few of Toril's Heartland sages." (Dragon Annual #3, p.112)

quote:
The plot itself, of some hunchback human with something like an ogre henchman looking for a place where he would no longer be ugly.... I feel like it was possibly right after beauty and the beast came out or something and someone was influenced by that.


I suppose it is possible that the TV show from 1987 and the film from 1991 influenced the book with the misshapen man component, but we're talking several years, so I am unsure.

As to looking for a place where he would no longer be ugly, I think that misses the mark of the text specifically as written. Atreus was instructed by Sune to get a sparkling vile of water from the Fountain of Infinite Grace and return with it to Erlkazar. The implication being, get some beauty water, bring it back, and I'll fix your wrecked face. To provide a cool background story for him though, he was one of the few noble family members to live through the Ten Black Days of Eleint (hence his false name) in Tethyr. I honestly think that is pretty cool. The fact that a polymorph went awry, and he was looking for a way to reverse the affects was pretty cool too. You could feel the desperation to be accepted, to be normal, and to have a life that would include a family. The moral quandaries throughout the novel were well done in my opinion, and the true hallmark of the novel. You could sense the "good" (whatever that means) in Atreus, only to find at times him realizing, as with others, that he might do some really screwed up stuff to get his looks back.

quote:
But the outlying area itself was somewhat intriguing enough and it had little development.


Agreed. I really would have liked to have seen more about the area as well. I as well was looking to expand my knowledge of that area, and was let down by that missing component for sure. That is the weakest part of the novel. It seems the magic formula of ~315 pages per novel can definitely hurt elements of a novel from a lore perspective for sure.

Best regards,



cpthero2 Posted - 01 Nov 2020 : 21:59:51
Great Reader slevyas, Senior Scribe Seethyr, and Master Rupert,

That is disheartening. I was just thinking about how cool that would be to check that place out in a novel, and I am thinking not, now.

Glad I have the heads up on that!

Best regards,



sleyvas Posted - 01 Nov 2020 : 18:13:38
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Yeah the book was bad and the ending even worse (or lack thereof). However, it did pique my interest in the region. I saw potential that was wasted. A backbone of an idea that was never developed properly.



Yeah, that's how I basically felt. It tittered on exploring the area, giving it a feel that was unlike most places in the realms. I was surprised to find fiendish beings in the area. That being said, I didn't read this until about 3 years ago, and only because I found out that it explored the Utter East. I was specifically reading it looking for anything Utter East lore based and not for the plot of the story. The plot itself, of some hunchback human with something like an ogre henchman looking for a place where he would no longer be ugly.... I feel like it was possibly right after beauty and the beast came out or something and someone was influenced by that. But the outlying area itself was somewhat intriguing enough and it had little development. Then I found the threads here with BadCatman and Markustay talking about the Utter East. I think this region is one that could use some developmental love and actually have some spellplague/sundering shenanigans happen and most people wouldn't bitch. Essentially, the only lore for the utter east seems to be from the blood and magic game, faces of deceoption, the double diamond triangle series (still haven't read it, but I have it), and some GHotR updates, and maybe some hints from hordelands.
Seethyr Posted - 01 Nov 2020 : 16:06:33
Yeah the book was bad and the ending even worse (or lack thereof). However, it did pique my interest in the region. I saw potential that was wasted. A backbone of an idea that was never developed properly.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 01 Nov 2020 : 04:36:54
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Faces of Deception was the last FR book I read, and it was so bad that I stopped in the middle of it. Still have out out, didn't pack it away with my other Forgotten Realms books since I got it off of eBay a couple of years ago.



There are two Realms novels that when I got done reading them, I wanted to hurl them across the room in sheer anger. Faces of Deception is one of them.

It's been years since I read it... But from what I recall, I didn't like the main character, and I felt, upon reaching the end of the novel, that absolutely nothing had changed and it had all been a waste of time.

I'll grant that it's been a long time -- 20 years, probably -- and there's a fair chance that there was some nuance in the book that I missed. But all these years later, that book still leaves a bad enough taste in my mouth that I'm not willing to give it another chance.
cpthero2 Posted - 01 Nov 2020 : 03:23:39
Great Reader Lord Karsus,

Wow. I didn't expect to hear that. What was so bad about it?

I'd love to see what you have about Langdarma. I don't know much about it at all.

Best regards,



Lord Karsus Posted - 01 Nov 2020 : 01:39:37
-Faces of Deception was the last FR book I read, and it was so bad that I stopped in the middle of it. Still have out out, didn't pack it away with my other Forgotten Realms books since I got it off of eBay a couple of years ago.

-As far as Langdarma, I might still have that chapter from the Kara-Tur Re-Dux that I did. I'll have to find my external hard drive and hook it up to see.
cpthero2 Posted - 31 Oct 2020 : 00:57:41
Senior Scribe Seethyr,

quote:
This is what I love about the realms so much. Iím not sure how many years youíve been reading Realms lore CptHero, but isnít it amazing how easy it is to find out about something youíve never heard of before? You can be 40 years in and have missed an entire region.


Since 1986 for me. Yeah, I agree with you. It is amazing!

Best regards,

Seethyr Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 23:49:02
This is what I love about the realms so much. Iím not sure how many years youíve been reading Realms lore CptHero, but isnít it amazing how easy it is to find out about something youíve never heard of before? You can be 40 years in and have missed an entire region.
cpthero2 Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 23:28:08
Great Reader sleyvas,

quote:
If you've got good ideas on what to do with it... personally, its SUCH an odd place that's "anti" adventurer that I'd not know exactly what to do with it to make it true without ruining it. Then again, maybe some devils or something have discovered the paths leading to it and they plan to capture the people there and sacrifice them or turn them or something.



After now having read up on this place (not a lot to read), I don't think the adventure is as much "there", as it is getting there. West of Langdarma is plenty of "adventuring" possibilities, and with the dearth (caveat: I have not read the novel yet) of information about Langdarma, there could be so many cool opportunities there, like the oft discredited Eldath, as one of many notions.

Anyhow, thanks again for sharing about that. That is amazing.

Best regards,

Seethyr Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 20:09:14
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Perhaps itís time for a Langdarma Adventurers Guide :-)



If you've got good ideas on what to do with it... personally, its SUCH an odd place that's "anti" adventurer that I'd not know exactly what to do with it to make it true without ruining it. Then again, maybe some devils or something have discovered the paths leading to it and they plan to capture the people there and sacrifice them or turn them or something.



It would definitely help for me to read Faces of Deception again though the copy I bought long ago was only half finished (inside joke for anyone who has read it).
sleyvas Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 19:54:05
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Perhaps itís time for a Langdarma Adventurers Guide :-)



If you've got good ideas on what to do with it... personally, its SUCH an odd place that's "anti" adventurer that I'd not know exactly what to do with it to make it true without ruining it. Then again, maybe some devils or something have discovered the paths leading to it and they plan to capture the people there and sacrifice them or turn them or something.
Seethyr Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 19:41:50
Perhaps itís time for a Langdarma Adventurers Guide :-)
Wooly Rupert Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 18:30:35
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X


As for Myth Drannor, its destruction made no sense to me. It was destroyed just to please fans of 2e, who cling to outdated fantasy concepts such as "only humans are allowed to have full kingdoms in fantasy".




My issue isn't that Myth Drannor was destroyed (AGAIN), it was that there shouldn't have been all that much to destroy.

The place was a ruin for literally centuries... And then, in the epilogue to the trilogy where elves decided to go back, it appears to be a thriving place just five years after they kicked out the fey'ri -- and the fey'ri had somehow "cleansed" Myth Drannor of centuries' worth of nastybads and such, in the few months they were there.

If it was up to me, at most, at the 5 year mark, there would have been a few blocks that were recovered, and the rest of the place would have been the same ruins it was in the boxed set. A century later? Yeah, much more would be recovered -- but there would still be a long way to go.

And it's not about who the occupants were -- I was never a fan of the Retreat, anyway. It's about centuries of neglect and magical weirdness and nastybads lurking under every rock, all in a city shattered by war. You don't just bounce back from that immediately.

Not only that, but making it an active recovery thing gives the PCs a lot of options. They can stay in the safe zone -- which would be more of an armed camp than anything else -- make forays into the ruins, and get back to safety when necessary.

There were years of adventuring potential in Myth Drannor, and first WotC chucked it out the window, then decided to bring it back (but not really!) in another clumsy, "oh, come on!" manner.
cpthero2 Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 17:34:12
Great Reader sleyvas,

I definitely had not heard of it. I just started looking into it. Thanks for the mention of that to both Great Reader's sleyvas and Lord Karsus.

I'll be digging into that today! :)

Best regards,




sleyvas Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 16:40:46
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Personally, when it comes to Var the Golden and the other shining lands that "sank beneath the waves", I think it would be a good idea to just use the same mechanic for a lot of things. Portions of it went to Abeir (...) Rather than just "status quo" it with some destruction, I would have what happened following the spellplague (and yep, I can hear some people complaining already).



You were talking about me,

But I feel that sending everything to Abeir just to preserving the old status quo is lazy. Sometimes, just plain old destruction is good, as it allows the Realms to evolve and give ground to new concepts.

But that's just me. I didn't grew with the old Realms, and don't have the money to buy 200 lorebooks to read about the place and get to learn why you want to preserve it.

That said, I'm all about bringing stuff from Abeir to the post-Sundering Realms. Though, I would go for coexistence rather than mutual annihilation.




Actually, for as much as you say you don't like my idea, it sounds like you'd have no problem with it. Remember, I said "bring it back with changes". I'm very much talking about "how can we bring things back, but bring them back different".

The one part where we're a little different is the idea that people from Abeir would come over and there wouldn't be some kind of conflict as two cultures collide. Now, it doesn't have to be "total war", but if we're talking adventuring, that's one way to add adventuring options. That being said, I'm open for ideas. What kind of Abeirans would you put there and what would you do with them (to note, I didn't say what kinds of people's I'd put there... as I don't have a preference just yet).

I'd also add that all 3 countries of the shining lands were only mildly interesting to me BEFORE the spellplague, and the 4e changes only mildly improved them. So, honestly, I was never a big proponent of either version, so in my book this is an opportunity to do something with the region that both builds on prior lore and gives a relatively free hand to design something new.

Oh, and on Langdarma, since it was brought up.... even many in-the-know old realms sages don't know what it is, because it was featured in one novel and a dragon article relating the NPC's of that novel. Its a land of extreme peace hidden high in the mountains of the Utter East, where committing murder be inconceivable. Shangri la would possibly be the best comparison, and the place was some place that Sune was highly interested in. That being said, I too wonder about the place ever since the spellplague (and that can be extended to the entirety of the utter east, which saw precious little lore in the first place).
Lord Karsus Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 15:38:39
-Langdarma is basically the Forgotten Realms analogue of Shambhala.
cpthero2 Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 15:00:50
Master Zeromaru X,

quote:
I do agree with you about Halruua, its destruction was for the sake of it, but Luiren? I'm fine with that. We need to get rid of these stupid fat hobbits


Halruaa definitely didn't need to go. Luiren makes the best cheese! No way should it go!

Best regards,

Zeromaru X Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 14:17:21
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr


I'm not a big fan of destruction unless there is a good story behind it. "Yup Halruua was destroyed, yup Lurien is drowned" broke my soul" but the smashing of Myth Drannor made sense to me. I don't mind so much "moving on" but the blatant disrespect for regions that just aren't currently important really saddened me.

I'm still waiting to hear what happened to Lagdarma in the spellplague :-)




Well, that's my point: I don't know what Lagdarma is supposed to be?

As for Myth Drannor, its destruction made no sense to me. It was destroyed just to please fans of 2e, who cling to outdated fantasy concepts such as "only humans are allowed to have full kingdoms in fantasy".

I do agree with you about Halruua, its destruction was for the sake of it, but Luiren? I'm fine with that. We need to get rid of these stupid fat hobbits
Seethyr Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 03:30:44
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Personally, when it comes to Var the Golden and the other shining lands that "sank beneath the waves", I think it would be a good idea to just use the same mechanic for a lot of things. Portions of it went to Abeir (...) Rather than just "status quo" it with some destruction, I would have what happened following the spellplague (and yep, I can hear some people complaining already).



You were talking about me,

But I feel that sending everything to Abeir just to preserving the old status quo is lazy. Sometimes, just plain old destruction is good, as it allows the Realms to evolve and give ground to new concepts.

But that's just me. I didn't grew with the old Realms, and don't have the money to buy 200 lorebooks to read about the place and get to learn why you want to preserve it.

That said, I'm all about bringing stuff from Abeir to the post-Sundering Realms. Though, I would go for coexistence rather than mutual annihilation.




I'm not a big fan of destruction unless there is a good story behind it. "Yup Halruua was destroyed, yup Lurien is drowned" broke my soul" but the smashing of Myth Drannor made sense to me. I don't mind so much "moving on" but the blatant disrespect for regions that just aren't currently important really saddened me.

I'm still waiting to hear what happened to Lagdarma in the spellplague :-)
cpthero2 Posted - 30 Oct 2020 : 00:02:06
Master Zeromaru X,

quote:
I didn't grew with the old Realms, and don't have the money to buy 200 lorebooks to read about the place and get to learn why you want to preserve it.


You know, that is a fine point, good sir. I grew up with the old, and as far as I know (minus novels) I own all of the old stuff (maybe missing something here or there, but unsure). It's hard to have that kind of thing changed for a new setting change.

It sounds like there is a contested idea about some obelisks perhaps being set up to turn back time (Summon Cher IX).

Best regards,


Zeromaru X Posted - 29 Oct 2020 : 23:52:03
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Personally, when it comes to Var the Golden and the other shining lands that "sank beneath the waves", I think it would be a good idea to just use the same mechanic for a lot of things. Portions of it went to Abeir (...) Rather than just "status quo" it with some destruction, I would have what happened following the spellplague (and yep, I can hear some people complaining already).



You were talking about me,

But I feel that sending everything to Abeir just to preserving the old status quo is lazy. Sometimes, just plain old destruction is good, as it allows the Realms to evolve and give ground to new concepts.

But that's just me. I didn't grew with the old Realms, and don't have the money to buy 200 lorebooks to read about the place and get to learn why you want to preserve it.

That said, I'm all about bringing stuff from Abeir to the post-Sundering Realms. Though, I would go for coexistence rather than mutual annihilation.
cpthero2 Posted - 28 Oct 2020 : 04:56:13
Great Reader Darden,

First off: sorry about the delay in my response. My son was dying to go to the park (even in the snow), and then dinner time! That being said, let's press on, shall wel? :)

quote:
Attacks to the man...


It's unfortunate that that is the belief in this situation, as that is not why I offered the information about inductive reasoning. It was certainly not meant as an ad hominem when I wrote,
quote:
It is inductive reasoning being utilized. If you're unfamiliar with it, you can read up a little on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning
. I can certainly appreciate why it came across that way, but I want to make clear that wasn't my intent at all. I have no motive at all to offer such an insult as I have no personal issues with you. Though we've had a spirited debate, I have had no cause that would justify insulting you with an ad hominem. While I can't change your opinion, I at least wanted to make clear my intentions. The reason it was offered is that few people have had familiarity with it, so I've become accustomed to sharing some quick, basic information, which is what I shared. You fortunately indicated your familiarity with it though, and as well, with Mr. Hume.

It sounds like though, you are not interested in continuing the conversation, so I'll certainly respect that by not eliciting any further comment by you in this scroll.

However, it is fantastic to know that you are familiar with British empiricists and specifically Mr. Hume. No doubt you've as well studied Mr. Kant and his related works too. If you ever feel the desire to discuss some Realms issues through the lens of such works by those gentlemen, or others, I'm always interested and would gladly take the opportunity: no ill will or frustration on my end.

quote:
I'm assuming you have read Hume's works on the flawed nature of Inductive Reasoning? You understand the vulnerability of your entire premise in your arguments is your vaunted throwing about of
INDUCTIVE REASONING ...when you don't even recognize your own biases are undermining your use of inductive reasoning?


Though this appears to be the final conversation you're interested in with me at the Keep, I'll happily answer the questions you posed to me, and thank you for those questions! Thank you!

As to the vulnerability of my "entire premise" by "throwing about of INDUCTIVE REASONING", I am unsure as to the vulnerability that you speak of, beyond throwing words about; however, I'll address that point alongside the, ironically so, implied nature of the reference to Mr. Hume and his work on the "Problem of Induction. As you know, the idea of an apriori presupposition was anathema to Mr. Hume. So, it makes sense that you would argue, consistently I might add, that inferences regarding the "violence and ruthlessness" of the Emerald Enclave being associated inferentially to the plagues of the Vilhon Reach would be a problematic and appear to be conflated. I take no umbrage with empiricism, as experience is how most people make sense of the world. However, the facts and circumstances don't support a purely empirical approach, so I am utilizing an inductive approach. Additionally, you stated that,
quote:
...based on non-existent premises.
, so I'll start there:

  • Premise: The Emerald Enclave's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues in the Vilhon Reach
  • Premise: The Vilhon Reach plagues killed approximately 713,000 people
  • Conclusion: The Emerald Enclave is responsible for approximately 713,000 deaths by their actions


quote:
As for me, don't presume I need to "study" inductive reasoning. I know well what it is. Your implication is insulting...especially if you are relying on Wikipedia.


I didn't presume as much; rather, I conditionally stated that if you are unfamiliar with it, here is some basic information. You're the first person I've debated with on here that has expressed their familiarity with Hume and inductive logic by declaration. AS to the citation of Wikipedia, I can certainly appreciate the frustration there. As a person with a double master's in business economics and public administration, I get the point you make for sure. Wikipedia is hardly the most credible source for information! lol However, the trade-off is it is easy to go through for a summary. Since I was unaware of your background in formal argumentation, I clearly wrongly assumed that might be a good, quick reference point. Thank you again for clarifying! :)

quote:
If inductive reasoning is going to be the sum total of your platform in logical debate, you have lost any sense of credibility to me.


I didn't see any deductive solution to the problem, with the lack of quantifiable and absolutely presented forms of information to be analyzed as possible data. Since an inductive argument is successful predicated upon the strength is a function of the degree, as opposed to deductive arguments. So, effectively, the data I provided regarding the percentile of death in the Vilhon Reach from 75DR to 85DR was a necessary condition to take a step further and analyze possible death tolls, by taking an adjusted population total of the Vilhon Reach, for approximately 1,300 years earlier. Since no census date was available for the population of the Vilhon Reach, I speculated about that population total. In so doing, I took the population total from 1372 DR, reduced it by 75% (to be generous and allow for a large error tolerance) and then halved that, to come to the approximated death total, that is purported to be commensurate with the "violence and ruthlessness" of the Emerald Enclave.

quote:
It is tantamount to saying "I said this thing...so this thing is true because I thought it is based on my own reasoning."


Hmm, I have to disagree with that. The idea of taking whatever the maximum amount of information and/or data that is available, and using clearly defined approaches to reasonably extrapolate an outcome is exactly what happens in statistical analysis, such as doing surveys for political polling. You take a sample, treat it, create a set of poll questions, test, and evaluate. While certainly it is reasonable for someone to come back and evaluate the approach in order to criticize the validity of the process and thus outcomes, it is unreasonable to argue that unless absolute empirical data exists so that extrapolation is unnecessary, is non-sensical.

quote:
I'm a college educated man (with a double major in Psychology and Central and Southwest Asian Studies) who has worked as a language instructor for major world corporations (PetroChina for one) who at this point is done with trying to show you any modicum of patience.


Very nice. That's an impressive educational pedigree. Congratulations on your success!

quote:
I won't engage you further because I suspect you are unable to refrain from further insult veiled in discourse.


I think I have with reason, honesty, genuineness and authenticity, conveyed that a misunderstanding has occurred about your having taken offense at an earlier statement of mine. I was happy to clear that up. Hopefully it will suffice such that you will be open to further debate! :)

As always, I appreciate the opportunity for a spirited debate Great Reader Darden.

Best regards,





Dalor Darden Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 23:29:25
Attacks to the man...

Very well...

I'm assuming you have read Hume's works on the flawed nature of Inductive Reasoning? You understand the vulnerability of your entire premise in your arguments is your vaunted throwing about of

INDUCTIVE REASONING

...when you don't even recognize your own biases are undermining your use of inductive reasoning?

As for me, don't presume I need to "study" inductive reasoning. I know well what it is. Your implication is insulting...especially if you are relying on Wikipedia.

If inductive reasoning is going to be the sum total of your platform in logical debate, you have lost any sense of credibility to me. It is tantamount to saying "I said this thing...so this thing is true because I thought it is based on my own reasoning."

That borders on the realm of absurd.

I'm a college educated man (with a double major in Psychology and Central and Southwest Asian Studies) who has worked as a language instructor for major world corporations (PetroChina for one) who at this point is done with trying to show you any modicum of patience.

Your logic is flawed; based on non-existent premises.

I won't engage you further because I suspect you are unable to refrain from further insult veiled in discourse.
cpthero2 Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 23:25:54
Great Reader Darden,

I also wanted to thank you for the ongoing, and spirited debate. They can certainly get hot, but your time and involvement is appreciated and respected.

Best regards,


cpthero2 Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 23:04:28
Great Reader Darden,

quote:
The Emerald Enclave's REPUTATION is legendary and ruthless. Meaning it is well established fact that they are a way (which does not denote an additional action).


I appreciate the response as always.

While you are certainly correct that a reputation does exist about them (because reputations are attained in one manner or another), you are missing the part that does denote action:

quote:
That group's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues that swept through the Vilhon."(Vilhon Reach, p.17)

In this case, 'as' is an adverb describing the degree of violence in fact being equal. Their violence is on par with the plagues that swept the area, in otherwords.

They have had the "additional action." The words (definition of the word, 'words': a speech sound or series of speech sounds that symbolizes and communicates a meaning usually without being divisible into smaller units capable of independent use) say so.

So, with the words that say the Emerald Enclave are in fact, verifiably violent and ruthless, to such a degree that is "...as legendary as the plagues that swept through the Vilhon", that is the evidence.

[quote]I'm left only with the possible conclusion that you take things very literally and this impedes your ability to properly use logic.


I respectfully disagree with your conclusion there. It is inductive reasoning being utilized. If you're unfamiliar with it, you can read up a little on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning

Best regards,

Dalor Darden Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 22:44:55
Plainly stated:

The Emerald Enclave's REPUTATION is legendary and ruthless. Meaning it is well established fact that they are a way (which does not denote an additional action).

DOES NOT EQUAL

The plague that killed half a region's population.

Your inability to see this basic distinction is astounding to me because it has been shown to you several times. I'm left only with the possible conclusion that you take things very literally and this impedes your ability to properly use logic. Knowing the definition of a thing word for word is not the same as being able to use the thing.
cpthero2 Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 22:23:22
Great Reader Darden,

With all due respect to your intentions, I believe there may be some misunderstandings on some finer details about my argument. However, I need to address an elephant in the room.

Your comment on 27 Oct 20 @ 03:32:47 of,
quote:
Conflating two statistics together to support what would amount to genocide is not the same as simply saying two things are equally well known...not equal. Willing something to be what we want is not the same as something being what it actually is. NOTE: Conflation is the merging of two or more sets of information, texts, ideas, opinions, etc., into one, often in error.
, doesn't identify the "two statistics" you are referencing.

The "statistics" (I have presented statistics as well as data) I presented include the following:

  • In the Year of the Clinging Death (75 DR), a plague tore through the Vilhon Reach, killing more than 50% of the total population in as little as 10 years. (Vilhon Reach, pg.4)
  • In 1372, the Vilhon Reach had a population of approximately 5,705,840 (humans 95%, dwarves 2%, elves 1%, lizard-folk 1%).
  • Let's just for arguments sakes reduce that by 75% to 1,426,420.
  • Now, that is of course silly to do so, but let's see what 50% of that is...oh my, it appears to be 713,230.
  • Being generous I reduced that to an absurdly low number whereas the high value would be 2,852,920
  • So, the Emerald Enclaves violence is so legendary and ruthless that it is stated to be on par with a death toll of between 713k to 2.8 million?


Of those (6) forms of statistics/data, which "two statistics" are you referring?

As to your assertion that conflation is occurring, I argue that I am doing what people do when they don't have 100% data to confirm something: they use explanatory induction. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321596989_Abduction_and_Induction_Essays_on_their_Relation_and_Integration

There is nothing wrong with using inductive reasoning to determine outcomes when deductive analysis is not feasible. Deductive analysis is not feasible here, so this logical tool is being used instead.

Additionally, I've seen nothing to indicate that the argument is being taken into account in its entirely, which argumentatively is a contextual issue from the onset. I've seen nothing to demonstrate that the entire, and original, argument found at http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4591&SearchTerms=controversy has been understood. As I made a point regarding Ed's "So Saith Ed, Jul - Sep 2005) answer in my rebuttal to you in the scroll, "Non-Weave Magic", having the full context is valuable.

As I continue to say though: if I am wrong, confirm the conflation. There is absolutely nothing wrong or shameful about being wrong. I welcome it as an opportunity to correct an incorrect outlook, and for it to help me interact with the material better as well as grow as a person.

I welcome your rebuttal good sir.

Best regards,



Dalor Darden Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 19:16:59
For there even to be a discussion, you would have to find support for your argument...which you have not. You have only conflated two things together which are not equal. Two things being equally well known does not mean that they result in the same thing.

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