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Originally posted by nblanton

That was the first mention, but it was added into the core game mechanics after that in the latter part of 2E. Monstrous Compendium Annual Vol. IV included several monsters that were described as from the Far Realm.

Granted, in previously editions Lovecraftian horrors were typically depicted as from some random layer of the Abyss.

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It was not a thing at all. It appeared as a throwaway plot element in 1 (one) module: The Gates of Firestorm Peak (since the eponymous gates had to lead somewhere "no way no how").

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Originally posted by Azar

Honestly, I thought that ability was playing into the fantasy convention of Elves being less affected by (or even "impervious to", in specific instances) greed.

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Originally posted by Azar

Honestly, I thought that ability was playing into the fantasy convention of Elves being less affected by (or even "impervious to", in specific instances) greed.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

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Originally posted by Azar

Why are Half-Elves and Elves unaffected by Abbathor's ability to arouse treasure lust in the mortal races?

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It's not that elves and half-elves are specifically excluded from the power; it only affects the small races (all of whom are seen as somewhat related to dwarves), and humans. So basically it is "dwarf-related races and humans." I think the idea is that he has no power over those who are not related to dwarves other than humans.

Jeff

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Originally posted by George Krashos

I had a play with some Cegilune stuff for an upcoming DMs Guild release. Hags are cool.:)

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by Azar

Why are Half-Elves and Elves unaffected by Abbathor's ability to arouse treasure lust in the mortal races?

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Originally posted by TBeholder
[It does not "show how big" it is any more than a stencilling a crude picture with "perspective" on a wall shows how big a building is. And at the quality level of most kitchen sinks, they would probably cause fits of claustrophobia.

Kitchen sinks are created out of laziness, and in turn breed silly mess.
This silly mess degrades the expected levels of content quality.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

I've always used Lynkhab over Malcanthet, Shami or any other succubus, really, as Queen of the Succubi. I enjoyed the irony of the demon queen of desire being unable to obtain her own desires, over Ultra-succubus-just-add-hair-dye #1 and #2.

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Originally posted by Baltas

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Originally posted by TBeholder
Kitchen sinks are the root of many evils.

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Personally, I think it's both a flaw and merit, for example for the fact that it show how big/expansive the "mega-setting" of D&D is. But YMMV.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by Baltas


Yeah, even Lolth seems partially named after Lilith. With this Lilith being just an alias of Shami-Amourae, also makes sense, especially seeing Shami's lore does have some visible similarities to Lilith's story were she started out as mortal (ie a mortal woman from extremelly primeval times that became (one of) the first succubi and queen of them).

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...and Legolas! Also starts with "L". Lol.

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Originally posted by TBeholder
And here you pointed right at the source of this problem (and many others): such doplegangers are simply dragged from different existing adaptations by several designers.
Kitchen sinks are the root of many evils.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon


Yeah, the Far Realm was barely a thing in 2e, and there weren't any deities from there in that edition. Car Sargent clearly established her as a resident of Baator. Honestly, I see aboleths as weird and frightening but also still entirely within the normal range of Prime Material creatures.

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Originally posted by Baltas


Yeah, even Lolth seems partially named after Lilith. With this Lilith being just an alias of Shami-Amourae, also makes sense, especially seeing Shami's lore does have some visible similarities to Lilith's story were she started out as mortal (ie a mortal woman from extremelly primeval times that became (one of) the first succubi and queen of them).

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In retrospect, it does seem Shami-Amourae's description (golden haired and white/porcelain skinned), might be inspired by two 19th century paintings of Lilith

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

Yeah, the Far Realm was barely a thing in 2e, and there weren't any deities from there in that edition. Car Sargent clearly established her as a resident of Baator. Honestly, I see aboleths as weird and frightening but also still entirely within the normal range of Prime Material creatures.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

Eh, I mean, you've got Lilith and Lilis (same actual name) as two different entities in 1e, and then this article (which makes no mention of Damh in the bit about Satyrs) proposes her as a succubus, and then I'll have to handle dealing with the existing uses whenever I get to Mesopotamian mythology, I'm inclined to ignore this material. If anything, Shami-Amourae is just known as Lilith in some places or something, if someone *really* wants to incorporate the material. "Lilith" as a name is just WAY too overused in D&D. :)

Jeff

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Originally posted by Baltas

Another great entry on Piscaethces!
I see though you ignored, at least largelly her Lords of Madness lore, ie no mention of her connection to the Far Realm.

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Originally posted by Baltas

I found another obscure entity from 2nd edition lore, though I'm not sure if worshipped, is Lilith the "Greatest of Succubi", introdued in a very late 2E bit of lore in Dragon #266:

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Lilith is the most powerful
succubus and all other
succubi pay homage to her.
Lilith is a foul temptress who seduces
men of great power to destroy and
enslave them. Lilith's usual form is a
woman of unparalleled beauty, but in
whatever form she takes, her legs are
covered with coarse hair. Unfortunately,
Lilith is a mistress of deceit, and victims
rarely see this sign until it is too late.

DMs who wish to introduce this fiend
into a high-level campaign should pre¬
pare a formidable foe, surely of no less
power than an Abyssal Lord.

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This was in a series of lore snipets in the article "50 Monster Maximizers" by Brian Corvello.

These Lilith's relation, if any to the Archdevil Consort Lilith (who curiously, is completelly absent in 2E), is unknown, though might be in part, along with reall-life mythology and folkore (the latter more probable) what made the decison to tie the Devil Lilith as the source of succubi in 4E lore (kinda, being the first angel of love, on which all other were based, with angels of love eventually becoming the first succubi; and the queen of Baatorian succubi), and in Green Ronin's "Book of the Rightous". Unless Lilith would be a Tanar'ri infilitrator to Baator like Astaroth.

I would guess Lilith is either a rival to Shami-Amourae, or another alias of her's. A bit regretable I didn't find it earlier, but oh well.

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Lilith is the most powerful
succubus and all other
succubi pay homage to her.
Lilith is a foul temptress who seduces
men of great power to destroy and
enslave them. Lilith's usual form is a
woman of unparalleled beauty, but in
whatever form she takes, her legs are
covered with coarse hair. Unfortunately,
Lilith is a mistress of deceit, and victims
rarely see this sign until it is too late.

DMs who wish to introduce this fiend
into a high-level campaign should pre¬
pare a formidable foe, surely of no less
power than an Abyssal Lord.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, the story of the insectare could fit well if the original "insectares" were Abeil. They are from 3.5 and have a slightly elven look.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Abeil

I had never heard of this race before your article on their god. I like your idea of the elves performing some kind of high magic that changes the race. I have a couple other proposals for you that might be the truth OR they might be heresies....

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Originally posted by sleyvas

What if what the elves did was magically modify an Abeil queen to have a womb instead of laying eggs, and thus making her able to mate with her elf lover. This may have made the other Abeil queens think of her and her children as abominations.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Its obvious that with the green skin on these insectares they they were hinting at the insect side being something like grasshoppers or praying mantises (so possibly hidden links to thri-kreen or similar races). But what if the green comes from something else? What if the "elven" looks could be better described as "fey"... and what if the insectare race comes from a breeding of the flower loving abeil and a plant based fey race "like" dryads... that bind to giant flowers instead of trees? That might even explain the priests never leaving their homeworld, perhaps all insectare "queens" are flowerbound. If this were true, it might add to the idea that elves get so mad for being accused of creating them. This could even add into things like their unusually long antennae as being "vine-like".

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Originally posted by sleyvas

If this second option were true... it might be something where the god, Klikral, has two forms... the male being like an insect like male, and the female like a green skinned flower fey. I picture this possibly being something where an evil fey plant goddess turned some abeil from serving their queen, and getting these abeil to mate with her fey servants. Being an evil fey she might not like elves.

You know... I think I actually like this second option. Even if its not the "insectare" it could make a really interesting race that links the idea of beefolk and fey flowerfolk mating. The male and females sides of their races may be significantly different with the females being more dryad-like (and thus their eye differences as well). Creating new females may require some sacrifice of magic to bond a newborn to a giant form of flower, which might explain why the males are out thieving magic where they can find it to bring it home.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

You know... until this article I had never really thought much about him and how he might be used. As with many of the things you write, the reading of it spawns ideas in my head. What just popped into my own head is the fact that Realmspace's sun is ACTUALLY a planet that has been set afire and has NUMEROUS portals to the elemental plane of fire on it. What if this is a battleground where Imix has forces that work against OTHER forces of fire? By that, I mean the forces of not only Zaaman Rul, but possibly even the forces of Surtr (who is a god of realmspace), Garyx (also a god of realmspace I still believe), or even primordials like Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer and his slaad followers. Maybe there's something ON this planet that they might all want to control, and that's WHY there's so many portals for fire to this place. Maybe there's also portals to radiance on the sun and there's fights between the powers of fire and radiance. Not sure where to exactly take this, but figured this might be a good way to explain why the people on the sun aren't rampaging elsewhere.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

Imix, the Prince of Evil Fire: https://bit.ly/40LRvLm

The ruthless Prince of Evil Fire Creatures is Imix, a warlord who strives to dominate all with his fiery destruction. He plans and strategizes in steps, completing one before moving to the next. it is widely held that should he succeed in his current war against Olhydra, no other archomental would be able to match his power.

Jeff

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Originally posted by sleyvas

You know, I know you're writing this for 2e, but this Kavor guy would make a great primordial. Having the gravs be psionic individuals using telekinetic powers rather than wizardry would also seem to work well with them. Their elites might actually be classed as psion type and/or artificer type classes rather than wizards. Having them use psionic power to make their weapons heavier on impact, pr making something akin to oil of impact, etc...

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