| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Chosen of Lathander |
Posted - 07 Mar 2006 : 17:28:19
Which country is the supreme power in the realms.I have always wondered it...
sorry for bad English |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Zimme |
Posted - 25 Nov 2006 : 01:48:21
quote:
Originally posted by Besshalar
But you can't forget the fact that they have atleast as many clerics as the thayans have wizards. And that kind of numbers in divine magic pretty much translate into an incredibly buffed up army. But seriously I can't see Mulhorand expanding for atleast another 10 years.
What about the Mulhorandi invasion into Unther then, thats expansion for ya! ;) |
| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 25 Nov 2006 : 01:18:23
How about the Deep Realm? |
| Besshalar |
Posted - 04 Nov 2006 : 10:03:00
But you can't forget the fact that they have atleast as many clerics as the thayans have wizards. And that kind of numbers in divine magic pretty much translate into an incredibly buffed up army. But seriously I can't see Mulhorand expanding for atleast another 10 years. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 21:46:28
Man, that was an interesting argument on Mulhorand several months ago. I was wondering where some of this came from (that women are being given roles traditionally held by men... and who are the gold swords.... and when did the Pharaoh start dating?). I agree that Thay needs to watch out, but for now they're just profiting by selling goods and foodstuffs, buying any captured Mulhorandi soldiers to use as slaves, and generally taking advantage of the situation. However, while Mulhorand is strong in numbers militarily, they do lack somewhat in the field of magical arts. Thay meanwhile is setup perfectly for strike force type tactics to take out leaders. If Mulhorand turned on them, there may be few nobles left around to lead the country(remember, they are no longer actual god-kings, unlike in previous centuries when they turned back Thayan wizards). Thayan nobles may get instated (or treasonous Mulhorandi given status). The problem that would arise then would be that of insurrection from the common people making the occupation untenable, especially since this would be considered a holy war between these two peoples. |
| Zimme |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 12:28:47
Dont think that Neverwinter constitutes as a major power my friend. =) Although it is a strong city. |
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 22 Oct 2006 : 13:09:15
quote:
Originally posted by Rezzenthell
What about the jewel of the north? My favorite Neverwinter :D
What about it? |
| Rezzenthell |
Posted - 03 Oct 2006 : 13:43:56
What about the jewel of the north? My favorite Neverwinter :D |
| scererar |
Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 16:45:17
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
Mulhorand is stretched too thin my friend, that is why women are now able to perform occupations previously reserved for men. The abled bodied men of that particular realm ar busy fighting in the west (according to the FRCS) and trying to hang on to what they are occupying.
What you also left out of the FRCS is that the head of the Goldswords and the Pharaoh are dating, and she's slowly putting ideas in his head about woman emancipation. It's not just a matter of "they need women because the men are gone," because if it was the case, they'd simply purchase more slaves. I would consider Mulhorand very carefully if I was the head of any state on the Faerunian continent (i.e. as far as the Silver Marches or Waterdeep), let alone surrounding the Inner Sea!
Yes I did forget that part didn't I  . I have been corrected as far as that portion. However, I still see Mulhorand as needing to wait a few before becoming this dominating factor of the world. My argument is not whether they are powerful, mine is are they powerful enough to go around knocking on the neighbors door step and demanding to come in for dinner. I don't think they are, YET. Once they prove to Unther that the people are better off with them, rather than before when the manifest of giliem was around, things will look up. The militay might is stretched too thin at this point to be successful. they could do some moving, but at the expense of other areas of their lands. Like I said before, without stats of the militaries and maybe even current troop positions, I am not seeing it right now. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 19:32:16
Er slaves do not grow on trees. The local supply is built in, via culture (much like Drow have a built in system). Expanion of landsfor a new supply of slaves will encounter free people that will not take kindly to being told they are slaves. Slave revolts and others types of misconduct will occur (requiring more slave trainers and/or guards requiring more loyal manpower). |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 18:02:37
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
Mulhorand is stretched too thin my friend, that is why women are now able to perform occupations previously reserved for men. The abled bodied men of that particular realm ar busy fighting in the west (according to the FRCS) and trying to hang on to what they are occupying.
What you also left out of the FRCS is that the head of the Goldswords and the Pharaoh are dating, and she's slowly putting ideas in his head about woman emancipation. It's not just a matter of "they need women because the men are gone," because if it was the case, they'd simply purchase more slaves. I would consider Mulhorand very carefully if I was the head of any state on the Faerunian continent (i.e. as far as the Silver Marches or Waterdeep), let alone surrounding the Inner Sea! |
| scererar |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 07:04:18
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
And why is this "Menzoberranzan" being mentioned in the same thread where MULHORAND's supremacy is being debated???
if Mulhorand is so great, why has it taken them this long to do anything to Unther? Those two nations have been at war for how long, and only now has one side gained the upper hand? I'm not impressed.
They're doing something about it now as a result of Anhur's clergy who has been pushing for the invasion for a loooong time. Read about Horus-Re (whose clergy controls Mulhorand) and you'll understand why Mulhorand likes to take it slow... (not like a frantic, oft by circumstance hooded, hampster such as yourself would know anything about that anyways...   )
Of course they are doing something about it now, the manifest of giliem was destroyed. This country is only taking advantage of an opportunity as it presented it's self. In addition to that Mulhorad had significant help from a foreign mercenary company, not previously in play. I was thinking on this earlier, with your example of Skuld never being defeated, I would almost think that NOW would be the perfect time to take action on a capitol city who has never been beaten. Mulhorand is stretched too thin my friend, that is why women are now able to perform occupations previously reserved for men. The abled bodied men of that particular realm ar busy fighting in the west (according to the FRCS) and trying to hang on to what they are occupying. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 06:57:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
And why is this "Menzoberranzan" being mentioned in the same thread where MULHORAND's supremacy is being debated???
if Mulhorand is so great, why has it taken them this long to do anything to Unther? Those two nations have been at war for how long, and only now has one side gained the upper hand? I'm not impressed.
They're doing something about it now as a result of Anhur's clergy who has been pushing for the invasion for a loooong time. Read about Horus-Re (whose clergy controls Mulhorand) and you'll understand why Mulhorand likes to take it slow... (not like a frantic, oft by circumstance hooded, hampster such as yourself would know anything about that anyways... ) |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 22:53:21
Distance serves as a moat, that allowed for many different cultures to develope (Some aspects TSR required to be added to the Realms) and presist in the realms. The fact that travel (for most) is slow the regions do make some sense, however what makes better sense might be divine protections of regions to at least try to keep them true to the faith. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 22:50:05
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But most people aren't going to enjoy an unrealistic scenario. If it's unrealistic, it's harder to suspend disbelief and get into the game -- hence, less enjoyment.
Besides, if they were so intent on this being an active area for adventuring, why did it only have the one supplement?
hmm... magic, spells, demons, gods running around like cockroaches, yes so unrealistic, I can't possibly enjoy it.
and my point about FR geopolitics, not just one region, the countries are very separate and mostly lethargic, so that separate writers can do separate things, there is no grand hand guiding it, aside from general guidelines set by WotC. If Salvatore felt like having Drow conquer Evermeet, do you think they'd let him? I highly doubt that.
And my point was internal consistency. It is not realistic to say that you have a nation, it's big and bad enough to do what it wants, it's ambitious enough to do so, and yet for no readily apparent reason it sits quietly and does nothing. |
| keijemon |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 22:26:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But most people aren't going to enjoy an unrealistic scenario. If it's unrealistic, it's harder to suspend disbelief and get into the game -- hence, less enjoyment.
Besides, if they were so intent on this being an active area for adventuring, why did it only have the one supplement?
hmm... magic, spells, demons, gods running around like cockroaches, yes so unrealistic, I can't possibly enjoy it.
and my point about FR geopolitics, not just one region, the countries are very separate and mostly lethargic, so that separate writers can do separate things, there is no grand hand guiding it, aside from general guidelines set by WotC. If Salvatore felt like having Drow conquer Evermeet, do you think they'd let him? I highly doubt that. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 22:17:45
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Disagreed. There has always been a high degree of realism in the Realms. Making things unrealistic for the sake of adventure is not something they'd do.
When it's a choice between realism and game enjoyment/playability, I belive any good game designer would pick enjoyment.
But most people aren't going to enjoy an unrealistic scenario. If it's unrealistic, it's harder to suspend disbelief and get into the game -- hence, less enjoyment.
Besides, if they were so intent on this being an active area for adventuring, why did it only have the one supplement? |
| keijemon |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 20:34:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Disagreed. There has always been a high degree of realism in the Realms. Making things unrealistic for the sake of adventure is not something they'd do.
When it's a choice between realism and game enjoyment/playability, I belive any good game designer would pick enjoyment. Thus even if a country by all right should've squashed another in a month, that conflict would be artificially stretched to allow players reasonable room to move, and enough intrigue and lasting backstory, to form a good adventure. This way people can go from novice to like lvl 15-20 fighting a war for mulhorand. It will be unrealistic for a player to get there in 1 months. So for realistic gameplay, they have to create unrealitic geopolitics. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 19:18:05
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
if Mulhorand is so great, why has it taken them this long to do anything to Unther? Those two nations have been at war for how long, and only now has one side gained the upper hand? I'm not impressed.
aha, and what do you think are the chances of Realm designers actually considering such deep geopolitica and military interaction? I think it is far more likely they created an unstable region for adventurers to sweeshbuckle, without trying to make it a realistic conflict.
Disagreed. There has always been a high degree of realism in the Realms. Making things unrealistic for the sake of adventure is not something they'd do. |
| keijemon |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 15:04:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
if Mulhorand is so great, why has it taken them this long to do anything to Unther? Those two nations have been at war for how long, and only now has one side gained the upper hand? I'm not impressed.
aha, and what do you think are the chances of Realm designers actually considering such deep geopolitica and military interaction? I think it is far more likely they created an unstable region for adventurers to sweeshbuckle, without trying to make it a realistic conflict. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 09:49:28
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
And why is this "Menzoberranzan" being mentioned in the same thread where MULHORAND's supremacy is being debated???
if Mulhorand is so great, why has it taken them this long to do anything to Unther? Those two nations have been at war for how long, and only now has one side gained the upper hand? I'm not impressed. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 08:47:57
Being secure in city (never invaded, or at least not having a breech in walls) is nice, however all that proves is that the defenses are good enough so far to stop any that tried to invade the city. A good defense does not mean a surpreme world power, though clearly a power center. The Drow of Menzoberranzan (if they could set aside House wars and work together) could take Skuld and they would not have to "breached its walls" (they could go under them and start from the city's center).
The reason though why Drow as a whole or even a city can not be considered a surpreme power is because it is hard for them to put aside the House wars. Odds are the conquest of Evermeet failed because not enough Drow allied and/or the allied Houses held some forces in reserve as protection from the other houses.
Magic changes the equation greatly, some epic spells could reduce a realm quickly. T# eleportation Circles or other portals can ease supply lines to some extent, but there still needs to be carts or wagons to go though them. Also inflitration can shut down such a supply line. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 08:15:02
quote:
10 years in the Navy, great. I too am a military man, 12 years US Army.
Hey, here in Canada they give you a medal after serving 12 years. I didn't stay long enough for the 12 years party.  I thank God for that every day! 
Ok then, stats hey? here it goes: 
[FRCS p.185]Skuld (Metropolis, 204,538): The oldest continually inhabited city in Faerūn, Skuld was founded over thirty-five hundred years ago. Its inhabitants boast (truthfully) that no invading army has ever breached its walls.
That should put this little supremacy thread to the test, I would say... who else has that kind of record?
|
| Sarta |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 08:12:35
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Navy? grossly overrated in a pre-cannonball era, if I can say so, and if I can refer to my ten years of service as a naval officer, with a tenure in the best marine engineering school of Europe (i.e. the one ran by the Royal Navy).
The military might of pre-cannonball ships cannot be debated in a fantasy campaign setting, being that a single wizard or sorcerer onboard a ship could prove far more devastating than any fusillade of cannonballs.
Supply lines cannot be over-looked or waived away by simply saying that they can be resolve magically. While it is not unbelievable for every ship to put to sea with a 5th or 6th level spellcaster, givnen D&D's mechanics, it is far more farfetched to assume that high level spellcasters can magically whisk the sheer quantities of food and supplies that a marching army needs on a daily basis. Pre-cannonball ships were pretty good at moving goods and troops long distances.
The reality is that Messemprar is being propped up by the Thayans, Zhentarim, and one could imagine many other profiteers via supplies of food and weapons sent in by sea. The Thayans benefit both monetarily and by keeping a buffer. Not to mention the psychological impact on Mulhorand's civilians with a protracted war without continual gains. Warfare is expensive and a drain on the economy and population. Without steady "wins" a population will eventually become disgruntled with a military state and may begin demanding that the troops come home. A pyrrhic victory may very well keep Thay safe.
The only way Mulhorand can quickly end the fight for Mesemprar is to cut off its harbor, something they have not been able to do. |
| scererar |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 06:14:11
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Besides, Menzoberranzan is only popular because of Drizzt. As far as drow cities go, it's only about medium-sized.
NOTE: the bold, capitalized or underlined bits do not show my wrath, but my enthusiasm. Thank you for your understanding!
And why is this "Menzoberranzan" being mentioned in the same thread where MULHORAND's supremacy is being debated???
Is the poster serious about Zhentil Keep, let alone Menzoberranzan putting a shred of resistance against the combined might of MULHORAND???
And scererar, I 'do' believe you are overanalyzing. I'm talking about Mulhorand being pitted against any other established realm, not an alliance of realms, faiths or slave liberation movements. They've just 'walked' into Unther because they felt like it for peppermint's sake... what makes you feel they couldn't do the same to Chessenta, whose cities are constantly at war against one another? Mulhorand could sweep across Faerun unhindered, and don't bore me with supply lines when they have wizards on hand who can build portals, say, in each conquered country. Navy? grossly overrated in a pre-cannonball era, if I can say so, and if I can refer to my ten years of service as a naval officer, with a tenure in the best marine engineering school of Europe (i.e. the one ran by the Royal Navy).
The only debate that is worth taking on when talking about Mulhorand's might is when they'd show at Sembia or Thay's doorstep (i.e. again, I am leaving 'allies' alone for the purpose of the discussion, as I believe that a treefold front vs. Thay - Rashemen, Aglarond and Mulhorand - would be fun and colorful, but in the end, very pinkmistich for the poor Thayian men in robes)
10 years in the Navy, great. I too am a military man, 12 years US Army.
I will have to still refer to my earlier post. Here: No disrepect intended, but you would be wrong. I do not feel that one "supreme" power exists at this point, in the realms. There are several powerful nations, alliances, etc. I would ask you to provide an "example" of what you suggest. Proove to me how Mulhorand would be the one. I also would not "over analyze", however, without prooving different, your hypothisis is mute. There would be too many factors involved with this particular senario, to come up with just "one". You would have to look at geographic location, money, allies, military might, tactical know how of the leaders, and several other factors, that would allow me to think otherwise. Until then I do not think that Mulhorand would be dominate.
I am almost thinking, one would have to analyze this situation, without facts, we are just guessing. I still, respectively and without any malice towards your opinions, disagree. We need stats, show me
In looking at the FRCS page 186 The pharaoh gave permission to invade Unther. This was only after the the manifest of Gilgeam being destroyed, and "greatly aided" by the gold swords, a powerful "foreign" mercenary company. Yes they did just pretty much walk on in and set up camp. however, now the mulhorandi military's energy is being spent to end/divert slave revolts and "train" the former Untheric slaves, in the service of the temples of Mulhorand. so now that they have expanded their territory nearly by half, the rest of unther is still there as well as home defense, I do not see these guys knocking on Sembia's door anytime soon
Additionally the Pharaoh's own military advisors caution about expanding too quickly. Could they make a quick strike to conquer?, probably, but the same could be said for many others. can they keep what they spilled blood for?, probably not. I would still like to see some of various stats of some of the more powerful nations military might. I have the silver marches, but have not gone out and purchased some of the additional, more in depth realms lore. ok NOW I am done "over analyzing" |
| Chataro |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 04:51:54
Sorry, my bad . I meant drow race instead of menzoberran. I added the drow because from what i know, the average drow seems to be more than capable to match an average member of any other race. Plus the fact that they procreate quite fast too
I added Zhentil keep because despite of everyone trying to attack the zhents, their power has been steadily on the increase despite the Tot and the failed attack on shadowdale and the other countless foiled plans. Their sphere of influence only seems to get larger and larger. Last i heard, they got another 2 more cities or hold or keeps( can't recall what). IS that a good enough point? |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 00:47:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Besides, Menzoberranzan is only popular because of Drizzt. As far as drow cities go, it's only about medium-sized.
NOTE: the bold, capitalized or underlined bits do not show my wrath, but my enthusiasm. Thank you for your understanding!
And why is this "Menzoberranzan" being mentioned in the same thread where MULHORAND's supremacy is being debated???
Is the poster serious about Zhentil Keep, let alone Menzoberranzan putting a shred of resistance against the combined might of MULHORAND???
And scererar, I 'do' believe you are overanalyzing. I'm talking about Mulhorand being pitted against any other established realm, not an alliance of realms, faiths or slave liberation movements. They've just 'walked' into Unther because they felt like it for peppermint's sake... what makes you feel they couldn't do the same to Chessenta, whose cities are constantly at war against one another? Mulhorand could sweep across Faerun unhindered, and don't bore me with supply lines when they have wizards on hand who can build portals, say, in each conquered country. Navy? grossly overrated in a pre-cannonball era, if I can say so, and if I can refer to my ten years of service as a naval officer, with a tenure in the best marine engineering school of Europe (i.e. the one ran by the Royal Navy).
The only debate that is worth taking on when talking about Mulhorand's might is when they'd show at Sembia or Thay's doorstep (i.e. again, I am leaving 'allies' alone for the purpose of the discussion, as I believe that a treefold front vs. Thay - Rashemen, Aglarond and Mulhorand - would be fun and colorful, but in the end, very pinkmistich for the poor Thayian men in robes) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 20:04:35
Besides, Menzoberranzan is only popular because of Drizzt. As far as drow cities go, it's only about medium-sized. |
| Beezy |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 19:57:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
I think most likely in the end, it would be the zhentil keep which can be considered the strongest, either that or the drows from probably Menzoberannzan
How could they be supreme? Zhentil Keep has for years been unable to conquer the relatively small Shadowdale, and the drow of Menzoberranzan didn't demonstrate any great military ability in their failed assault on Mithral Hall...
I was going to say nearly the same thing myself. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 17:50:40
quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
I think most likely in the end, it would be the zhentil keep which can be considered the strongest, either that or the drows from probably Menzoberannzan
How could they be supreme? Zhentil Keep has for years been unable to conquer the relatively small Shadowdale, and the drow of Menzoberranzan didn't demonstrate any great military ability in their failed assault on Mithral Hall... |
| scererar |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 16:22:03
My opinion is that it would most likely end up being an alliance of sorts that would be most powerful. Look at the Hordes trilogy. |
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