| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 10:19:24
Greetings to all the scribes here! There had been something I had been pondering about, that is the Dawn Catclysm. And heard that it was a divine war that nearly split the pantheon, so is there information about the Dawn Cataclysm and what role did Lathander had in this war, which gods participated in the war and any major events worth noting happened during this war plus how did it end.
Any information on this topic would be greatly appreciated. My Thanks go to all who reply to this topic. |
| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Senbar Flay |
Posted - 01 Aug 2005 : 15:27:24
Okay thanks I think i'll go download now! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Aug 2005 : 11:40:45
quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
I never would have thought that there would be an artifact powerful enough to kill every living creature on Toril. What exactly does the Dawnstone do are there any stats?
I believe it was statted out in both Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (available for free on the Wizards downloads page) and in the Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set. While it is a nifty doohickey, I doubt there's anything on Toril with the power to wipe out everything. |
| Senbar Flay |
Posted - 01 Aug 2005 : 05:46:37
I never would have thought that there would be an artifact powerful enough to kill every living creature on Toril. What exactly does the Dawnstone do are there any stats? |
| Smyther |
Posted - 23 Jul 2005 : 01:33:24
Whatever and whatnot. I was just throwing out some ideas. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 23:46:17
I beleive its been pointed out before that sometimes Alaundo's names in the Roll of Years make perfect sense, sometimes they make sense years later in perspective, and sometimes they never seem to make sense, or refer to something that was a relatively minor event compared to some other events that happened in that year. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 23:20:42
Actually, the term used is "presaged", not "heralded". And that term, by definition, means that the DC happened before the Fall of Myth Drannor.
The Dawnstone is only a century old, if it still exists. It couldn't have been used as part of the Dawn Cataclysm. (And I say it may no longer exist because it was in the Dawnspire, located outside Myth Drannor, and Farthest Reach mentions the destruction of a Lathanderite temple within Myth Drannor.)
As for the fall of Myth Lharast in 720, the Year of the Dawn Rose...
First, just because the words "Dawn" and "Rose" are in the name of the year, that doesn't mean Lathander was in any way, shape, or form involved in what happened to that city. It could refer to anything, and is not necessarily related to Lathander.
Second, the Dawn Cataclysm has always been linked to Myth Drannor. It was a far more important and well-known city than Myth Lharast, and remains a shining example of peaceful coexistence. I can't see all the sages of the Realms mixing up too wildly different cities. |
| Smyther |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 20:56:32
There are several points I'd like to address that have been brought up., starting way back with Wooly.
The Dawnstone was one of my less canon (read: what a fascinating concept/connection) ideas regarding the Dawn Cataclysm. I read somewhere that there is soon to be a repeat of this catastrophe via 'Lathander's Second Dawn,' which would involve the Dawnstone of Myth Drannor - a potent artifact of Lathander. I theorized that since the Dawnstone would be a focus of the Second Dawn and exists in Myth Drannor, it would likely have existed back in the first attempt - especially considering Lathander is the god of new beginnings and trying things again (though I do see the fact that he might want a whole new beginning instead of using the same plan). As noted, Lathander is quite unintelligent when it comes to the consequences of his own plans and regarding his own failures. He would want to try the Dawnstone idea 'again' in the Second Dawn, thus concluding it could have been used in the first Dawn Cataclysm.
The date: there have been SO MANY wildly conflicting accounts of the date that I'm inclined to take Gray Richardson's/Eric Boyd's idea of it happening outside realms time. Think the Narnia style, except perhaps at a different rate. However, while I do not recall my exact reasons for placing the date at 720, I do know that I was acting on the most reliable information in which there where the least conflicts.
You have said and may say again that the DC heralds the fall of Myth Drannor, which does present a problem. Again, I retreat to the 'out of the time frame' theory that could have the DC starting before the fall, thus heralding it, and ending in 720.
Alternately, I have recently thought up two new theories/addendums.
First, the use of the world 'herald.' This part is purely semantics, and I realize it is sort of weak. When heralding something, you can either be heralding the arrival, or heralding the departure (think in a high class party, with introductions and announcals of departure and such). Perhaps it heralded the actual fall, thus occuring as Myth Drannor fell, a few months after, or a few months before.
Second, reading through 'Lands of Intrigue,' I came to see that Myth Lharast fell (overrun by evil lycanthropes and then blasted by Selune) in 720 - the Year of the Dawn Rose. Is it perhaps possible that the fall of Myth Lharast is connected to the DC, especially considering the name of the year it fell in. I seem to recall something about roses to do with Lathander or perhaps some other deity (fairly sure not the corrupting rose Moander). Then the name being 'dawn,' something definately linked to Lathander. Also, is it perhaps possible that the sages got it wrong: what if the DC did not herald the fall of Myth Drannor, but the fall of Myth Lharast? This assumes that the date of the DC was actually 720, which I stand fairly firm on.
As for Helm's lover... Murdance/Murdane, chalk it up to a spelling error.
Er, that's enough for now, I think. Mayhaps I'll be back for some more.
BTW, the references I used for my 'essay' are included on the SP page Kentinal referenced. (It's actually quite flattering that someone else from both boards decided to reference me). |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 10 Jul 2005 : 16:51:18
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
we should expand the discussion to include the pantheons from other settled planets (or celestial bodies) within realmspace. after all, if toril has several distinct pantheons, how many are there in the whole sphere???
I agree with you on this. We know that Chauntea was originally the goddess of life for all of Realmspace. But it is said she contracted herself in scope to only be the god of life for Toril. Even on Toril she has fragmented herself into different aspects (eg. Jannath, Chauntea, Earthmother, etc.) I would argue that she didn't contract herself so much as fragment herself among the various planets of Realmspace. So that there is a Chauntea fragment on Coliar, one on H'Catha, one on Glyth, etc. Except the one on Glyth might appear as an Illithid or as a purple plant with tentacles, or whatever conception befits a god of life of an alien world. Clearly the Chauntea we know is god of life of only Toril (or even just parts of Toril) but that is only because she split off and left fragments of herself to steward the life of the other planets of Realmspace.
These fragments themselves may have fragmented even further, so that they become separate deities in different pantheons or different regions of those planets. And her fragments may have evolved into really bizarre and alien conceptions far deviated from how we conceive of a god of life or agriculture.
No doubt on H'Catha, the Beholder planet, she might be perceived as a beholder. They might conceive of her as a Great Mother that spawned all the life on H'Catha. Heck, for all we know the Great Mother could actually be an aspect or fragment of the original Chauntea that was brought to Toril with Beholder colonists from the planet H'catha when they first came to Toril. Or maybe the Great Mother is an interloper god that ate or subsumed the H'Cathan aspect of Chauntea when Beholders first settled H'Catha.quote:
Originally posted by tauster
- the war between selune and shar is one of the great conflicts that, in my point of view, almost have to be discussed in the context of realmspace.
consequences: there is a lot of room for "lost primal deities" that later might have merged back into the modern gods, some of them known to torils/faeruns population, some still completely unknown.
Oh, agreed. Agreed!quote:
Originally posted by tauster
- what caused the "merging back", apart from the dawn cataclysm?
from what we know, spelljamming was neverwidely known on faerun, so cultural exchange (and with it, pantheon-merging) couldn´t from that source.
Pantheons and gods merging is discussed somewhat in the opening of the sourcebook Faiths & Pantheons. It occurs whenever godly spheres of influence begin to overlap, due to migrations of populations or peoples coming together and blending or uniting into a larger culture.
Conversely, fragmentation occurs whenever populations divide or become isolated from each other and the deity has to split off separate aspects to service the two groups of worshippers and accomodate different conceptions of the god.
For instance, the World Serpent split off many different aspects of himself to service the highly fragmented factions of the Sarrukh and the races they spawned. You ended up with a lot of different serpent and scalyfolk deities all split off from the same primal god.
In fact, my own personal belief is that the World Serpent may be the son of or even a true fragment of the original goddess of Life, Chauntea (as we know her). It may be that as intelligent life arose on Toril, the humans perceived the goddess of life as Chauntea while the Sarrukh naturally perceived the god of life as a Serpent, and so the god was split into two very different aspects to service two very different groups of worshippers with vastly different conceptions of the god.quote:
Originally posted by tauster
maybe lathander came from another planet of realmspace? he could have been one of gray´s "primal deities", who liked the idea to merge with his kindred fragment on toril (amaunathor).
Hmmm... an interesting theory. Not outside the bounds of possibility.  |
| tauster |
Posted - 10 Jul 2005 : 10:47:59
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I have a theory about Talos/Kozah, and that is that they are both fragments of the same original deity of storm & destruction. Faiths & Pantheons says he is one of the original deities of Realmspace formed in the wake of the War of Light & Darkness between Shar and Selûne at the dawn of time.
My sense of it is that as the human peoples spread out and became isolated from each other, that the lord of storm & destruction fragmented into separate aspects to service the various populations of his worshippers. I believe there was a Netherese fragment called Kozah, a Talfiric fragment named Talos and a Coramshite aspect named Bhaelros. There was also an aspect named Malyk worshipped in the underdark who was possibly part of the Jhaamdathan pantheon.
When the proto-pantheons merged together into the unified Faerûnian pantheon, I believe that Talos/Kozah either merged with, subsumed or otherwise destroyed his rival aspects.
I think the same thing happened with Chauntea/Jannath too. Same thing with Tempus/Targus/Garagos.
I think there were a lot of these primal deities that were around at the dawn of time that split into fragments and then merged back together when the isolated peoples of Faerûn started travelling and trading and merging into a greater Faerûnian culture.
some thoughts here (...and sorry for hijacking the thread in the later parts of my rambling):
- iirc, crystal spheres are sort of "pantheon-boundaries", right?
so it seems only logical to me to consider all (or many) things divine in that context. hence, we should expand the discussion to include the pantheons from other settled planets (or celestial bodies) within realmspace. after all, if toril has several distinct pantheons, how many are there in the whole sphere???
- the war between selune and shar is one of the great conflicts that, in my point of view, almost have to be discussed in the context of realmspace.
consequences: there is a lot of room for "lost primal deities" that later might have merged back into the modern gods, some of them known to torils/faeruns population, some still completely unknown.
- what caused the "merging back", apart from the dawn cataclysm?
from what we know, spelljamming was neverwidely known on faerun, so cultural exchange (and with it, pantheon-merging) couldn´t from that source. ...and speaking of spelljamming:
- i never liked that netheril did largely ignore realmspace. i felt that this would have been a great chance for the empire, but apart from oberon (iirc), no one seemed to be interested in spelljamming. i am still toying with the idea that there was a spelljamming culture of note in netheril that fell into oblivion with the fall of the empire: all ships on toril at the time of karsus´ folly were destroyed, those en route in wildspace (ot other spheres) decided after their return that there´s nothing of note left for them, so they moved on to other worlds. the survivors had other things to worry about than spelljamming ships, and after all they had been only one arcane miracle among many, so the stories about them went the same way all stories about "the old days" went: they became (often distorted) legends, and many of them were forgotten.
this theory (i.e. "the existence of a sizable netherese spelljamming culture") could allow for enough travel/cultural exchange to initiate a pantheon-merger: the netherese "exported" their gods to the worlds they explored and traded with, and "imported" foreign gods (by hiring crew members from other worlds, or (in exceptional cases) by converting to these foreign gods). after some decades/centuries (...must check the timeline...), this exchange was large enough to "spark" a merger.
maybe lathander came from another planet of realmspace? he could have been one of gray´s "primal deities", who liked the idea to merge with his kindred fragment on toril (amaunathor).
|
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 09 Jul 2005 : 23:32:06
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Very good points, Gray! It would sound reasonable to assume that the DC was the main reason for the "pantheon merge" of those ancient cultures, or the direct result of it. Perhaps Kozah was renamed Talos during/after this divine clash?
I have a theory about Talos/Kozah, and that is that they are both fragments of the same original deity of storm & destruction. Faiths & Pantheons says he is one of the original deities of Realmspace formed in the wake of the War of Light & Darkness between Shar and Selûne at the dawn of time.
My sense of it is that as the human peoples spread out and became isolated from each other, that the lord of storm & destruction fragmented into separate aspects to service the various populations of his worshippers. I believe there was a Netherese fragment called Kozah, a Talfiric fragment named Talos and a Coramshite aspect named Bhaelros. There was also an aspect named Malyk worshipped in the underdark who was possibly part of the Jhaamdathan pantheon.
When the proto-pantheons merged together into the unified Faerûnian pantheon, I believe that Talos/Kozah either merged with, subsumed or otherwise destroyed his rival aspects.
I think the same thing happened with Chauntea/Jannath too. Same thing with Tempus/Targus/Garagos.
I think there were a lot of these primal deities that were around at the dawn of time that split into fragments and then merged back together when the isolated peoples of Faerûn started travelling and trading and merging into a greater Faerûnian culture.
I imagine that a lot of this merging occured after the Fall of Netheril and before the Fall of Myth Drannor, and may have been the impetus for or result of the Dawn Cataclysm itself. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jul 2005 : 22:54:44
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Very good points, Gray! It would sound reasonable to assume that the DC was the main reason for the "pantheon merge" of those ancient cultures, or the direct result of it. Perhaps Kozah was renamed Talos during/after this divine clash?
Let us remember that Moander's power in the Realms was severely weakened by elven High Magic in Tsornyl, in 75DR. So while it might have been possible for him to take on an avatar, and appear to Tyche as a flower, this would suggest a date before 75 DR when Moander still had more power. This is only a minor point, though
Yeah, but that's before Myth Drannor was around as such.
But still fits in the timeline between -100DR and 800DR
My point is that if the Dawn Cataclysm presaged the fall of Myth Drannor, then Myth Drannor had to be around during the Dawn Cataclysm.
Moander may have been imprisoned, but he was -- at least peripherally -- involved in the Dawn Cataclysm. So he had at least enough power to have an effect on the outside world at that time, despite being imprisoned. This is also backed up by the fact that he was involved in the creation of Alias, even while imprisoned. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 09 Jul 2005 : 21:51:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Very good points, Gray! It would sound reasonable to assume that the DC was the main reason for the "pantheon merge" of those ancient cultures, or the direct result of it. Perhaps Kozah was renamed Talos during/after this divine clash?
Let us remember that Moander's power in the Realms was severely weakened by elven High Magic in Tsornyl, in 75DR. So while it might have been possible for him to take on an avatar, and appear to Tyche as a flower, this would suggest a date before 75 DR when Moander still had more power. This is only a minor point, though
Yeah, but that's before Myth Drannor was around as such.
But still fits in the timeline between -100DR and 800DR
Anyway, I might be wrong there, but Moander was bound beneath Yulash in 171DR until Alias of Westgate freed him. Still, as Ed has pointed out many times, how can mortals ever be sure about the affairs of the gods?
Quote:
"The elves of Cormanthyr complete a two-year-long siege and running battle to destroy the sole surviving temple of Moander in the northern forest (at the site of modern Yulash). The elves raze the temple after slaying all of Moander's priests. The Coronal and sixteen of Cormanthyr's High Mages cast the binding High Magic that banishes the Jawed God from the Realms until it is freed by a nonborn child.
From this time foward, Moander remains a lurking evil trapped beneath the ruins of his final temple." |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 09 Jul 2005 : 21:43:47
Gray, it may be that Lathander indeed was originally a different name/aspect for Amaunator in Athalantar, and since his power had been waning with neglect, this worship of Lathander caused a new sun deity to emerge. Perhaps this energetic deity "siphoned off" power from Amaunator, and became a deity in his own right? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jul 2005 : 19:32:38
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Very good points, Gray! It would sound reasonable to assume that the DC was the main reason for the "pantheon merge" of those ancient cultures, or the direct result of it. Perhaps Kozah was renamed Talos during/after this divine clash?
Let us remember that Moander's power in the Realms was severely weakened by elven High Magic in Tsornyl, in 75DR. So while it might have been possible for him to take on an avatar, and appear to Tyche as a flower, this would suggest a date before 75 DR when Moander still had more power. This is only a minor point, though
Yeah, but that's before Myth Drannor was around as such. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 09 Jul 2005 : 18:51:23
Very good points, Gray! It would sound reasonable to assume that the DC was the main reason for the "pantheon merge" of those ancient cultures, or the direct result of it. Perhaps Kozah was renamed Talos during/after this divine clash?
Let us remember that Moander's power in the Realms was severely weakened by elven High Magic in Tsornyl, in 75DR. So while it might have been possible for him to take on an avatar, and appear to Tyche as a flower, this would suggest a date before 75 DR when Moander still had more power. This is only a minor point, though |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 09 Jul 2005 : 16:04:25
I think the schism in the church of Tyche is irrelevant to dating the Dawn Cataclysm for the reason that 1) the Servant of the Fallen feat allows clerics to continue to worship a dead god and 2) Tymora and Beshaba probably both would answer prayers and grant spells to Tyche's faithful using the name Tyche as an alias. Thus, Tyche's clergy need not even have realized that Tyche had split, and would not see an interuption in their power. They needn't even have taken the Servant of the Fallen feat.
I think the upper limit on the Dawn Cataclysm would have to be 714 DR due to we are told that the DC presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor, so it would have to happen before this date, right? Although I am sure you could include the Tyche schism as part of the aftermath period following the DC proper.
As for an early limit, I would argue that, since Lathander was the perpetrator of the DC then Lathander would have to have arisen in the Realms before the DC could begin. Assuming that Eric Boyd's theory that Amaunator, Lathander, and the Lord of Dusk (whether Jergal or Myrkul) were linked in a tripartite godhead where no more than 2 aspects of the Sun god could be extant in the Realms at any given time, then Amaunator had to have died before Lathander could arise.
Faiths & Avatars gives the date of Amaunator's death from neglect "after about a millenium" following the fall of Netheril. That would date his death at circa 661 DR (give or take a few years.) So assuming a half-century margin of error, that would mean that Lathander arose no earlier than the 600's DR. Giving us a most probable date range for the Dawn Cataclysm of 600-714 DR, with the latter half of that date range being more likely.
However, this dating is problematic in that Lathander is said to have been worshipped in 2nd centuray Athalantar. How can we account for Lathander having arisen before Amaunator died? I have a few possible explanations:
1) the name Lathander might have originated with Amaunator, who used it as an alias or as the name of one of his avatars or aspects among the people of Athalantar. So it could be that the Lathander worshipped in Athalantar was actually Amaunator under a different name. Perhaps the name came to later be associated with the newly arisen Morning Lord when he emerged in the 600's.
2) Athalantar was firmly nestled in the Western Heartlands around the area of modern day Secomber, which was its capital. The Western Heartlands was the home to the Talfiric peoples, and we know from Faiths & Pantheons that the Netherese sphere of influence did not extend to this geographic area and that this area was home to the Talifiric Pantheon before the time that the Talfiric and Netherese Pantheons merged together (along with the Jhaamdathan and Coramshite Pantheons).
In fact, I would suggest that the Dawn Cataclysm was either the instigating factor for these pantheons merging or was the fallout from them having merged.
Anyway, Lathander could have been the Talfiric sun god. A rival sun god to Amaunator that could have similar portfolios because the two pantheons were still distinct and had separate geographic spheres of influence.
Since only one god can have a portfolio within the same pantheon, when the Talifiric and Netherese peoples and pantheons began to mingle and merge, Lathander won out and moribund Amaunator went to his final rest in the Astral.
I am not sure, however, if this explanation can be made to jive with Eric Boyd's theory of the tripartite sun god. Perhaps they can be reconciled in some fashion. I think it could be made to work with some thought.
3) Lastly, Eric Boyd has said that deific events happen outside the normal time stream and cannot precisely correspond to mortal time.
According to Eric there is no way for the DC to be pinned down more precisely than to say that it happened between -100 DR to 800 DR, a 900 year range. If Eric is right, then just as Einstein's theory of relativity radically changed our notion of simultaneity, then godly events might be said to have occured at different times in different places around the Realms.
Thus, it could be that Lathander arose in Netheril after the death of Amaunator in the 600's, but arose much earlier in the Talfiric region as early as the 2nd century DR (or earlier).
While this lack of simultaneity may seem strange, there is of course an earthly metaphor for this. We are all familiar with time zones, and how the sun can be perceived as at high noon in one part of the world, while it is dusk or night or morning in another part of the world. The sun can have set in one place while still above the horizon in a location just a few hundred miles away.
Perhaps the times for Lathander rising and Amaunator "setting" can be explained by this metaphor.
While Eric has said that the DC cannot be pinned down more precisely than -100 to 800 DR, it is still fun to try. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 09 Jul 2005 : 04:46:55
Dargoths DC Thesis
The Origins of the DC begin much earlier than the Fall of Myth Drannor in fact if a date where tied to this earlier "Time of Troubles" it would begin in the year -339 DR the Year Karses cast his "Instant god spell". As many sages know Karses destroyed the Netherse Goddess of Magic which was a disaster in itself but he also destroyed the Netherese civilization which resulted in the Collpse of the Netherils pantheon of Gods. All Netherils gods where dropped into the Faerunian pantheon, this brought the interloper Netherese gods into conflict with the Faerunian deities who shared their portfolios.
The most well known deific conflic from this era is the one between the Faerunian god Tempus and the former Netherese god Gargos. We also know that several Netherese Gods didnt survive this era ie Amaunator and at least two where demoted in power Gargos (who lost his fight with Tempus) and Jergal (Who surrendered most of his power to Bane, Bhaal and Mykrul). Less than a hundred years later another great civilization would fall Jhaamdath which would lead to the "death" of that pantheons first power Auppenser and the collapse of the pantheon so again the Faerunian deities had to deal with an influx of rivial deities. Within a decade of Jhaamdaths destruction the God Tyr enters Faerun at the head of an army of Archons during the conflict he slays the Jhaamdathan god of Anarchy Valigan Thirdborn and eventually raises the mortal Torm as a demipower.
Within another hundred years 2 more civilizations fall Narfell and Raumathar dumping there deities into a overpopulated pantheon which seems to be in a constant state of war. At some point Lathander decides to try and "fix" by reshaping the whole pantheon in his own image (Knowing Lathander he probably tried to bump off all the evil deities) this as we know failed and resulted in the death of several deities. I personally suspect that Ao stepped in and altered Lathanders spell so it would kill an equal number of deties of different alignments rather than just the evil ones thus maintaining Aos balance. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jul 2005 : 03:54:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Another point is the date. We know that Tyche split into Beshaba and Tymora during the DC. From the FRCS, we know that Tyche's church schismed in 8th century DR, splitting into the churches Beshaba and Tymora. That puts the DC sometime in the 700s.
I recall references to Tyche which date afer the Fall (in Seven Sisters I believe). It's also been suggested (by Ed) that there were Tyche clergy elements who still continued to consider themselves as such even after the creation of Tymora and Beshaba.
There is also the detailing which connects the ascension of the High One with the Dawn Cataclysm.
quote:
The actual date of the Fall hasn't been retconned. And the schism in Tyche's church is a 3E bit. So we have enough canon lore to peg the DC as happening between 700 and 714 DR.
It can even be suggested that the DC didn't occured in 700 DR. SotM clearly denied the fact that the DC "heralded the Fall".
As for throwing up dates for the DC, I even recall some references suggesting that the event occred between -339 DR and 136 DR.
We can even consider the source that states the schism as occuring in the 8th century DR to be a worthwhile foundation. As is almost always said, we know the DC has been said to have presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor (712-714). So, if the schism happened relatively quickly after the Tyche split, then we can assume that at the earliest, the Dawn Cataclysm happened in the late 690s.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jul 2005 : 03:33:18
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I have been thinking about this a little more. While the DC might have occured between 700 and 714 DR it almost certainly can not be the first godswar. The orcs and the elves were fighting far before this. Also the Elven split occured much sooner in history. Perhaps the DC is the first time the human deities fought amonst themselves in mass battle as clearly Shar has been fighting her twin much longer.
Oh, it is most certainly not the first godswar. It's just that it's one of the biggest divine events (aside from the ToT, of course) that humans know about -- though I doubt many humans really know all that much about it.
Incidentally, I read someplace that originally, the Dawn Cataclysm was just a throw-away entry someone tossed on a timeline. When the fans sat up and took notice, a story began to form around it.
Unfortunately, it's one that's been mostly "hands-off" to the powers that be. One of the official lines is that it happened mostly beyond mortal ken; another is that because it was mostly among gods, and since gods aren't affected by time the same way mortals are, then it's pointless to put a date on it.
I don't care for any of those viewpoints, but I don't see them changing any time soon. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 09 Jul 2005 : 02:25:41
I have been thinking about this a little more. While the DC might have occured between 700 and 714 DR it almost certainly can not be the first godswar. The orcs and the elves were fighting far before this. Also the Elven split occured much sooner in history. Perhaps the DC is the first time the human deities fought amonst themselves in mass battle as clearly Shar has been fighting her twin much longer. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 17:43:22
If you do a Candlekeep forum search there's at least 3 to 5 threads about the Dawn Cat. :) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 17:41:55
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hmm, a couple of problems with that essay...
The problem with web search is that hits vary as to how acurate they are.
Of course that Eric spell was never a 10th level spell, just some thought it was.
One eye always used to have one eye until Corellon cut one out. The auther did indicate was not canon, though claimed to work with all avialible sources as of November 13, 2004. You know well canon can change in a stroke of a pen. The dreaded retcons.
Well, all I know about the Dawnstone comes from 2E. I don't recall any reference to it having been involved in the Dawn Cataclysm in any way.
The DC presaging the fall of Myth Drannor is mentioned in a couple of places, I think even in 3E.
The actual date of the Fall hasn't been retconned. And the schism in Tyche's church is a 3E bit. So we have enough canon lore to peg the DC as happening between 700 and 714 DR. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 11:47:27
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hmm, a couple of problems with that essay...
The problem with web search is that hits vary as to how acurate they are.
Of course that Eric spell was never a 10th level spell, just some thought it was.
One eye always used to have one eye until Corellon cut one out. The auther did indicate was not canon, though claimed to work with all avialible sources as of November 13, 2004. You know well canon can change in a stroke of a pen. The dreaded retcons. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 11:30:19
Hmm, a couple of problems with that essay...
For one thing, the whole Dawnstone part. I don't know where that came from. There is an artifact by that name at his temple outside of Myth Drannor, but that's the only Dawnstone I know of and no mention is made of it being part of the Dawn Cataclysm.
Another point is the date. We know that Tyche split into Beshaba and Tymora during the DC. From the FRCS, we know that Tyche's church schismed in 8th century DR, splitting into the churches Beshaba and Tymora. That puts the DC sometime in the 700s.
But, the Fall of Myth Drannor began in 712, and ended in 714. If the Dawn Cataclysm presaged the fall of Myth Drannor, as is often stated, then it had to have happened no later than 714, and more likely before 712.
I'm also not sure where he got his list of existing gods... But Helm's lover was Murdane, not Murdance. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 11:10:54
Presented at http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/12/491.html
"The Dawn Cataclysm
Written by the Smyther, commonly known as Neal Smith.
There are many myths, ideas, rumors, and half-truths going around about the Dawn Cataclysm. But I took an interest in this fictorical event and took the liberty of researching every bit of known data. If I have missed something out, and you know it to be ‘canon data,’ then please don’t hesitate to tell me. I found the bones of the Cataclysm and fleshed them out, filling in the gaps with likely or probable things and events. The following is not ‘canon data,’ but it can be taken as the closest thing to Wizards of the Coast actually publishing something on this mysterious event in the history of Faerun.
The date of the Dawn Cataclysm has been widely varied with the telling. Sources say that it took place after the fall of the Netheril, and before the fall of Myth Drannor. This is true – in fact, it is also said that this event heralded the fall of that great elven city. I am not entirely sure if they played a direct role in the fall, but they may have prophesized it during the war. Back to the point, the most prevalent and relevant information shows that the date of the Dawn Cataclysm was sometime in 720 DR, ending on what would be called the Day of Shadows. (Volo’s Guide to All Things Magical incorrectly states that Azuth was brought to godhood during this time, and that the godswar ended on the Year of Shadows – the year of the beginning of the Time of Troubles.) There are dates putting the Dawn Cataclysm at 161 DR, 134 DR, -331 DR, and –339 DR. These are incorrect. The Cataclysm was in 720 DR, and the date was used by knowledgeable sages to mark the beginning of the Age of Humanity.
The Dawn Cataclysm is regarded as nearly irrelevant to mortal history, and therefore there is no point in considering it at all. Unfortunately, this is not a good view, as the godswar had a great effect on the history of the Forgotten Realms. It was during this time that Lathander formed his enmity with Shar over her servants’ interference with his plans, and his uneasiness with Helm, as Helm’s lover Murdance was killed during this time. But most important of all, it was during this time that the goddess Tyche experienced a schism, forming the two splinter faiths of Tymora and Beshaba – the goddesses of good and bad luck, respectively. In addition, it was during this time that the high god Ao opened up Realmspace to all races and faiths from other worlds, effectively beginning true multi-universe travel; this would likely have occurred at the end of the godswar on the Day of Shadows.
During the Dawn Cataclysm, old feuds were brought anew, new fights were started, old scores were settled, and new enmities began. There are only several gods known conclusively to have existed during this time, and it is certain that all the faiths of the following were affected by the war. All faiths would be affected. The known existing gods were Amaunator, Jannath, Kozah, Moander, Mystra, Selune, Shar, Targus, Tyche, Helm, Murdance, Azuth, Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, and Lathander. There would definitely be records made by the priests of the gods at the time, as their gods would have instructed them to battle opposing churches, to weaken the gods above.
As for how the Dawn Cataclysm started, the events of the godswar can be directly traced to the god of renewal, youth, perfection, creativity, and new ventures – Lathander. This god decided that evil was on the rise, a view shared by Chauntea and Oghma, who both knew of Lathander’s impending plans, yet decided to do nothing about it. The god of creativity concocted a ritual to use an item called the Dawnstone to destroy every creature on Toril and reincarnate the realms in his own image. Needless to day, the other gods were not pleased upon discovering this plan, and war soon ensued over it. Some gods would likely have been on Lathander’s side, others would have been dead set against this new world order, giving two sides in the physical and magical debate. Evil gods would have likely used the chaos to their advantage, playing gods against gods to further their own ends and create more factions in the fight. It would seem to the gods that the only ones they could trust would be themselves. Sometime at this point, the gods gathered at the Dancing Place in Highdale upon Faerun. It was likely a chance for Ao to moderate what was going on.
Whilst the fights raged, Tyche left the war – likely to escape the chaos, or get away from the ideas of her lover Lathander. Before she left, she kissed Lathander with bad luck, but upon Toril she found a perfect rose that she took to be a sign of Lathander’s apology. However, she ended up having to curse the rose with bad luck in order to pick it and place it behind her ear. Unbeknownst to her, the rose was the hidden form of the god of decay and corruption Moander, whom also decided to seek refuge and perhaps sow some chaos in the realms. The corruption from the god flower spread to her and rotted her core with misfortune, so much so that when she returned to the planes, her ally Selune recognized it and split her in two with purifying light. This split caused the formation of Tymora and Beshaba, who began their feud right then and there, and have continued ever since.
Back in the war, spies of Shar entered the fray, and made their way to the heart of Lathander’s plan. They then either corrupted the efforts of Lathander, or exploited some weakness in the plan that made it doomed to fail – or both. It is not known how the war ended, but it is likely that when Lathander’s plan failed, the gods lost their reason to war, and began to settle down. It is also quite entirely probable that the high god Ao stepped in to settle the disputes, as he would not want the realms to become involved with the godswar, ruining the delicate balance on the mortal world.
Thus the Dawn Cataclysm began and ended. More information is likely to be found on the subject, as old records of sages are uncovered. More things will be known to have happened, each with its effect on the mortal world, increasing the Cataclysm’s significance. The preceding information is not one hundred percent accurate, but it is the best one can currently get on this fantastic event in the history of Toril – an event that shaped the events and people of the realms today."
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| DeathRage |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 11:00:27
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Alas web seach provides little information. The only thing found there is one reference to "Tyche's essence split into at least two pieces during the Dawn Catclysm (The first Godswar) forming the contemporary Goddesses Tymora and Beshaba. There is also some speculation that Lathander was born of a piece of Tyche's sundered esssence, but no one can prove this one way or the other, including the Church of the Morninglord."
It was said that Tyche was Lathander lover as well before the Dawn Cataclysm and she abandoned him during the war. |
| Antareana |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 10:53:23
wasn't it Lathander who caused the Dawn Cataclysm?
It is also known that Helm's consort (I don't remember her name, but I think it was something like Morgane) died during the DC and that this is the reason why Helm is still not on good terms with Lathander.
Lathander also wanted to reform the entire pantheon to make it better in his view. He was a pretty young and foolish god back then  |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 10:33:39
Alas web seach provides little information. The only thing found there is one reference to "Tyche's essence split into at least two pieces during the Dawn Catclysm (The first Godswar) forming the contemporary Goddesses Tymora and Beshaba. There is also some speculation that Lathander was born of a piece of Tyche's sundered esssence, but no one can prove this one way or the other, including the Church of the Morninglord." |
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