| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 12:35:43
A warmest Greetings to all forum members! Well I would like to consult the forum members on the phaerimm and their origins. I have well heard rumors that these horrible creatures are descended from Ioroulhaamh, the first and final significant creation of an Imaskari Archwizard named Tkinnolihr. Which Ioroulhaamh was slain by the combined might of the best Archwizards, which the spellbattle freed the other phaerimm, who escaped to certain caverns under the fledgling human nation of Netheril. Is that true or there is some other information to confirm their origins? And is it true the phaerimm are seeking the Amulet of Silver and the The Death Moon Orb?
Replies are very gladly welcomed and very appreciated by me. Thank you for replying and reading this topic. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 14:50:55
The Sharn were created out of magic itself, weren't they? I thought that is why they are chaotic neutral???
C-Fb |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 04:02:36
quote:
Originally posted by Tathral
Just a quick question (and sorry if I missed it somewhere in the article) but where is it mentioned that the Sharn are transmogrified drow?
Nowhere. 
Drow didn't exist at the time of the sharn's first creation. 
Steven
Who likes riddles and puzzles as much as the next guy |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 02:02:57
It's largely non-canonical... proposed by the 'lorelords' of the Realms (Ed, Eric, and Steven). The origins of the sharn haven't been properly defined as yet. It's a theory that's received a nod in some products as an aside, but it's not concrete in the sense that it is the ONLY theory applicable.
As the lorelords see it, the elder sharn are dark elves of Miyeritar transformed by High Magic into a new form to save themselves and vestiges of their culture and civilization during the 'killing storm' that destroyed that ancient realm.
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| Tathral |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 01:08:42
Just a quick question (and sorry if I missed it somewhere in the article) but where is it mentioned that the Sharn are transmogrified drow? |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 13:44:49
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I think the Phaerimm would look extremely strange if they had eyes. I like them as eyeless beasties. And think, their own mortal enemies, the Sharn, have no eyes either. Perhaps it was meant to be that way. Speaking of which, since when did the Sharns team up with ancient Netheril? I know they both hated the Phaerimms, but allies???
C-Fb
The sharn have eyes wherever they choose to, having dozens if they choose on all surfaces of their form. They just don't often get depicted with eyes on their "heads," that's all.
Well, there's all sorts of stories out there, and some may even be true. As for an "official government sanctioned alliance" between the powers of Netheril and the sharn, I'd say (as someone who knows more about sharn than Netheril) that it's highly unlikely.
Now ask me if the sharn may've helped along the exodus and escape of many gnomish slaves, and I might spin ye a tale....
SES |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 04 Oct 2005 : 00:58:22
The eyes, in the illustrations that I am talking about, run in lines from the rim of the circular end of the Phaerimm that houses their mouths, down to their tails. Those lines are interspersed with rows of spikes (i.e. thornbacks, though I hate that nickname). It really looks cooler than it sounds. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 04 Oct 2005 : 00:56:09
I think the Phaerimm would look extremely strange if they had eyes. I like them as eyeless beasties. And think, their own mortal enemies, the Sharn, have no eyes either. Perhaps it was meant to be that way. Speaking of which, since when did the Sharns team up with ancient Netheril? I know they both hated the Phaerimms, but allies???
C-Fb |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 04 Oct 2005 : 00:36:58
Hm, even looking at the Phaerimm on the cover of Netheril, the eyes went missing on that peice as well. I don't recall Troy Denning mentioning the eyes on their sides in teh description of them in the ROTAW books either, though he may have.
Ack! In the description in FR13 it doesn't mention the eyes either! But they are clearly there in the VV illustration on page 94, I think. Really, I'm not crazy! I'm NOT!
Bah . . . the discussion on them in Ruins of Myth Drannor doesn't mention their eyes either, but the illustration above them obviously include them.
Hm, I can see how illustrators just going by the description would not include the eyes . . . does anyone know if Ed has ever mentioned the eyes? Perhaps these were just a VV affectation for her own artwork. I guess I always assumed that the eyes exsisted becuase Phaerimm always have extrodinary visual abilities (such as seeing into the Etherial, etc.) |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 03 Oct 2005 : 23:24:14
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I have to say, I have bought many works of art from Todd Lockwood (prints, not originals) and I love all of his work. Todd Lockwood designed all the dragons for 3rd edition and does some of the coolest book covers I have ever seen. I was pleased to see that a piece of Lockwood art was gracing the cover of Sons of Gruumush.
C-Fb
Well met
Aye  Todd's work in Draconomic...ahem  I have taken this discussion on artists over here. Please feel free to continue over in the relevant scroll. Thank ye. Now, back to the Phaerimm... |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 03 Oct 2005 : 15:11:29
I have to say, I have bought many works of art from Todd Lockwood (prints, not originals) and I love all of his work. Todd Lockwood designed all the dragons for 3rd edition and does some of the coolest book covers I have ever seen. I was pleased to see that a piece of Lockwood art was gracing the cover of Sons of Gruumush.
C-Fb |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Oct 2005 : 14:04:27
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
I'll go to bat for Todd as one of the best artists I ever got to work with for one reason--He reads the material and he understands it.
When he first came to TSR and read the art description for the LANDS OF INTRIGUE cover, he wasn't happy with it, as it didn't pop for him. He came to talk to me about it and asked to read the manuscript, to see if there was anything in it that he'd really make an exciting cover. After a day, he announced he'd give us a battle scene with Sythillis the ogre mage, which I heartily endorsed, as we'd never had an o-m on a cover before then.
Other great covers he did (and one of which I owned for a while): Empires of the Shining Sea, Wyrmskull Throne, Hellgate Keep, etc.
Sure I'm biased, but frankly, I think Todd was one of the best D&D artists I've ever seen and he belongs in the "pantheon" with Jeff and Larry and Clyde...
Neato  .
Steven, did any of the other artists responsible for the artwork on the covers of your other FR works ever discuss their ideas with you?
quote:
To drag this back on topic, I don't recall seeing phaerimm depicted on any covers, though I may've blocked some out of memory. Aside from the "eh" color illo in Monsters of Faerun, where have the killer cones of Cormanthyr been done in color?
SES
The cover of the box for the Netheril: Empire of Magic boxed set is the first that springs to mind.
I don't know why though...  .
|
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 03 Oct 2005 : 13:41:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The fact that I've been aboard since incredibly artists were employed is a lot of the reason I don't care for the current crop of artists.
Well met
Not wishing to linger over this too long and go terribly off-topic, but Wooly, surely Tood Lockwood's work on the Realms must impress thee? 
I've not been impressed by anyone's art in quite some time. I can't even tell you who Todd Lockwood is, or what he's done.
I'll go to bat for Todd as one of the best artists I ever got to work with for one reason--He reads the material and he understands it.
When he first came to TSR and read the art description for the LANDS OF INTRIGUE cover, he wasn't happy with it, as it didn't pop for him. He came to talk to me about it and asked to read the manuscript, to see if there was anything in it that he'd really make an exciting cover. After a day, he announced he'd give us a battle scene with Sythillis the ogre mage, which I heartily endorsed, as we'd never had an o-m on a cover before then.
Other great covers he did (and one of which I owned for a while): Empires of the Shining Sea, Wyrmskull Throne, Hellgate Keep, etc.
Sure I'm biased, but frankly, I think Todd was one of the best D&D artists I've ever seen and he belongs in the "pantheon" with Jeff and Larry and Clyde...
To drag this back on topic, I don't recall seeing phaerimm depicted on any covers, though I may've blocked some out of memory. Aside from the "eh" color illo in Monsters of Faerun, where have the killer cones of Cormanthyr been done in color?
SES |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Oct 2005 : 11:26:21
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The fact that I've been aboard since incredibly artists were employed is a lot of the reason I don't care for the current crop of artists.
Well met
Not wishing to linger over this too long and go terribly off-topic, but Wooly, surely Tood Lockwood's work on the Realms must impress thee?
I've not been impressed by anyone's art in quite some time. I can't even tell you who Todd Lockwood is, or what he's done.
Well met
Take a look at the Hunter's Blades trilogy, also Starlight and Shadows, Sons of Gruumsh...
Ah. Nope, can't say the artwork impresses me. I don't actively dislike it, like some of the artwork I've seen from Wizards, but I can't sing its praises, either.
Like I said earlier: I'm spoiled by who the artists were when I came aboard. It's difficult to compare to Larry Elmore. |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 03 Oct 2005 : 08:29:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The fact that I've been aboard since incredibly artists were employed is a lot of the reason I don't care for the current crop of artists.
Well met
Not wishing to linger over this too long and go terribly off-topic, but Wooly, surely Tood Lockwood's work on the Realms must impress thee?
I've not been impressed by anyone's art in quite some time. I can't even tell you who Todd Lockwood is, or what he's done.
Well met
Take a look at the Hunter's Blades trilogy, also Starlight and Shadows, Sons of Gruumsh... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Oct 2005 : 22:18:41
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The fact that I've been aboard since incredibly artists were employed is a lot of the reason I don't care for the current crop of artists.
Well met
Not wishing to linger over this too long and go terribly off-topic, but Wooly, surely Tood Lockwood's work on the Realms must impress thee?
I've not been impressed by anyone's art in quite some time. I can't even tell you who Todd Lockwood is, or what he's done. |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 02 Oct 2005 : 21:49:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The fact that I've been aboard since incredibly artists were employed is a lot of the reason I don't care for the current crop of artists.
Well met
Not wishing to linger over this too long and go terribly off-topic, but Wooly, surely Tood Lockwood's work on the Realms must impress thee? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Oct 2005 : 06:39:04
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I hope, if we ever get a miniature of a Phaerimm (which would be nice) that we get the long lines of eyes running down their sides like they are suppose to have put back on them. The Valerie Valusek picture in FR13 makes them look far more fearsome then they have in just about any other supplement, especially the silly green windsock appearance from Monsters of Faerun and Lost Empires of Faerun. Of course, in my opinion, you can't even compare Valerie Valusek and Thomas Baxa . . .
Valerie Valusek is an outstanding artist. I loved her stuff. Unfortunately, WotC no longer employs the excellent artists like her and the Great Three: Larry Elmore, Jeff Easley, and Clyde Caldwell. Larry Elmore's artwork was part of what sold me the first Realms supplement I got: FR9 The Bloodstone Lands.
The fact that I've been aboard since incredibly artists were employed is a lot of the reason I don't care for the current crop of artists. |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 23:03:31
quote:
Originally posted by Defender
Well, I am sincerely hoping for a novel that will touch on the fight between the sharn and phaerimm or at least a story plot that involves the Sharn. It is time to turn the spotlight on the elusive Sharn.
Agreed, The sharn are exceedingly mysterious. They are saviors of an evil that destroyed most of the evil which was Netheril. They appear only at the time of the phaerims destruction of netheril and virtually disappear afterwards. It would be wise to make sure that the phaerim had not destroyed the elder sharn by some unknown means, and to locate surviving younger sharn.
It would make sense that sharn were powerful enough to hedge in the phaerim if indeed they are dark-elves of tens of thousands of years past because elves of that era still had access to 'heavy magic' (am I correct?) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 22:42:46
I hope, if we ever get a miniature of a Phaerimm (which would be nice) that we get the long lines of eyes running down their sides like they are suppose to have put back on them. The Valerie Valusek picture in FR13 makes them look far more fearsome then they have in just about any other supplement, especially the silly green windsock appearance from Monsters of Faerun and Lost Empires of Faerun. Of course, in my opinion, you can't even compare Valerie Valusek and Thomas Baxa . . . |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 01 Oct 2005 : 22:33:19
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Greetings, can I inquire how long is the interval between each growth stage of the phaerimm?
LEoF and MoF say that the "revered Elders" are centuries old. vague but at least you know that they naturally live to be over 200 years old. Most probably a revered elder is something like 800-1200 years old |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 12:19:37
Shadovar, what I meant by that "progenitors of the Avolakia"-theory is that VGtD mentions how many of the elves in Tsornyl were transformed by Moander's 'creeping evil' into horrible monsters (such as deepspawn), and this 'loophole' might be used to explain where all new aberrations/plant monsters in all the upcoming monster manuals have originally come from 
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| Shadovar |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 00:08:41
I see.., thanks to you both, The Sage and Wooly Rupert. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 17:39:35
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
and who's Tsornyl? I had not heard of such names so far.
Thanks.
Tsornyl is actually the name of a city, an elven city in fact. It was the target of Moander and his "creeping evil" in 75 DR.
See Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves for more details.
It's also mentioned in Volo's Guide to the Dalelands. Both are available for free on the downloads page on the Wizards site. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 14:10:04
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
and who's Tsornyl? I had not heard of such names so far.
Thanks.
Tsornyl is actually the name of a city, an elven city in fact. It was the target of Moander and his "creeping evil" in 75 DR.
See Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves for more details.
|
| Shadovar |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 13:07:27
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
On the other hand, it may be handy that we have that passage in VGtD to explain away new (perhaps even unique) monsters/aberrations in every new Monster Manual
Maybe the progenitors of the Avolakia, from Monster Manual II, had their origin in Tsornyl's fall? They are not too numerous or prominent (as they would have been lurking and plotting in the Underdark, mostly) to cause any inconsistency in previous Realmslore.
Pardon my question, what's the identities of these "progenitors of Avolakia"? and who's Tsornyl? I had not heard of such names so far.
Thanks. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 18:00:31
On the other hand, it may be handy that we have that passage in VGtD to explain away new (perhaps even unique) monsters/aberrations in every new Monster Manual
Maybe the progenitors of the Avolakia, from Monster Manual II, had their origin in Tsornyl's fall? They are not too numerous or prominent (as they would have been lurking and plotting in the Underdark, mostly) to cause any inconsistency in previous Realmslore. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 09:47:14
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
It's often less the states themselves who write about their doings than historians who come along after the fact and try to sort out the facts from the rubble. Or sow disinformation, if that be their task as well.
Bear also in mind that things can be part of verbal/oral history and/or local lore for centuries before someone writes it down to share it with others who can read and write. Therefore, even though it's my proposition that no one had a definitive written/sketched description of a sharn up until the 7th Century Dalereckoning, it's likely that they were wildly disparate tales of boogey-men and monsters in the dark around adventurers' campfires for ages....but nothing definitive about them until very recently.
Think of it this way--how much do we know about the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot/Sasquatch without actually having definitive accounts and proof of their existence? That help the analogy along?
Aye, it does indeed My thanks again! |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 10 Jul 2005 : 18:28:03
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Aye, you are correct. Most of the lore discussed here might be made seem true, and every DM bends and twists existing lore at least somewhat to better suit his campaign.
I was merely posting an earlier quote, and trying to get your and the other scribes' opinions on it. Hopefully I have not offended you, and if I did, my humble apologies for being too persistent about "hard facts" 
No offense heard or perceived; just being a freelancer dodging the inevitable fact that what I say is not necessarily canonical any longer unless it's under a WotC logo.
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| Asgetrion |
Posted - 09 Jul 2005 : 20:32:31
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
"`Tis true the only difference between inveterate liars and historians is the amount of dust collected upon their writings and used to justify their statements." Khajar of Bormulton near the Wash, 1313 DR
"None lie more boldly than historical scholars stacking their lies upon older fibbers who had done much the same." Ghutax the Scholar, 897 DR
"It's true, I swear it is! Volothamp Geddarm and Khelben the Blackstaff are both members of a cabal of time-traveling shape-shifters and the true progenitors of doppelgangers, sharn, and deepspawn! Honestly--you just have to find the right sources to prove it!" Anonymous person rightly entitled "Soon to be Slain" by the patrons of the Blushing Mermaid, 1374 DR
PS: Color me strange, but I can see a couple of ways that every statement we've discussed in this thread could be made to at least seem true if not be wholly true. And isn't that one of the primary purposes of our being here--generate more ways to enjoy the Realms? If you're looking for iron-clad and unassaiable truths, you should meander over to the nonfiction parts of the bookstore, not here.
Aye, you are correct. Most of the lore discussed here might be made seem true, and every DM bends and twists existing lore at least somewhat to better suit his campaign.
I was merely posting an earlier quote, and trying to get your and the other scribes' opinions on it. Hopefully I have not offended you, and if I did, my humble apologies for being too persistent about "hard facts" |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 13:12:08
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
There are even earlier references to deepspawn in the Realms - see the discussion of the Spawn Wars in the scattered reference texts on the dwarven realm of Shanatar.
I too like Steven's stab at the origin of the deepspawn, but given their appearance in the Realms millenia before the fall of Netheril, we'd probably have to qualify it by saying that these transformed Netherese were the progenitors of deepspawn in the North [and I'd also state that the deepspawn in the North are thereby different to their counterparts in the South - a variant form if you will].
-- George Krashos
There's always the option of making both true, as George did above.
Amazing how much can hinge on the inclusion or exclusion of such simple words as "original," "first," "last," etc.
SES
Who states for the record that there's far more in print about the sharn that's not true than is true, thanks to the disinformation campaigns of <NDA>. |
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