| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ulrik Wolfsbane |
Posted - 04 Jan 2005 : 23:24:41
What I really want to discuss or share opinions about are the Uthgardt. I feel they were somewhat subsumed into the Illuskan culture in Races of Faerun, and didn't really get the attention or uniqueness they deserved. In fact, earlier first and second edition products did a better job of covering them and their doings than what was supposed to the the authorative guide to the races and cultures of Faerun. And don't get me started on the Reghedmen... The Silver Marches remedied this somewhat, but covered only a few of the tribes. Specifically what I'd like to talk about are the possibilities for the various tribes in the future (conquest, battle, chieftainship, destruction), especially the relationship between the eastern tribes and the newly risen Silver Marches. I feel a certain amount of anxiety about a new wave of civilisation pushing the Uthgardt further into the wilderness, to destruction at the hands of orcs or even a degenerate orc-like existence for themselves. I can imagine even good aligned Uthgardt characters (like my own) eventually taking up arms against the good people of the Marches to prevent this happening (the philosophy of Uthgardt himself would, of course, encourage this).
What about fallen tribes/totems being resurected or re-established by outcasts from other tribes. Can new beast totems arise or be revealed (for instance, it is unclear whether the Blue Bear was an original totem beast, as the Tree Ghost only began to worship it after they had been driven from Grandfather Tree by the tree itself. While I'm on this particular topic, I'd like to vote for Eric Boyd's 'Mintiper's Chapbook' as by far the best series of articles ever posted on the Wotc website. They are truly amazing). It seems that an Uthgradt hero with enough charisma could forge a new Red Pony or Golden Eagle tribe from disenchanted members of the Elk or Griffon tribe, or even the fragments of the Blue Bear.
Finally, what are the lands claimed by the tribes? These have never been satisfactorily been detailed in my opinion, though I'm well aware that the nomadic nature of most Uthgardt prohibits fixed territories or borders for each tribe. How would the Uthgardt treat the settlements and roads passing through their territory? Would they levy taxes on caravans or simply raid them? I suspect this would vary wildly from tribe to tribe, according to the whim of their chief or king, shamans and their totem, and their general attitude to 'weakling southerners'. On that note, would they be anymore forgiving/friendly to other Illuskans, Reghedmen in particular (think of Wulfgar's encounter with the Sky Pony in 'Streams of Silver') than, say, a Waterdhavian?
Please, let you opinions and discussion commence. Oh, and if this merits any responses from on high I'd be very flattered and pleased. And I have a LOT more to say about the Uthgardt. For instance, their language... There's no way they simply speak a local dialect of Illuskan, their culture is totally different... Mutter, mutter... pass me another horn of mead...
I originally posted this on the wotc boards, but they're not giving the level of feedback and discussion I'd hoped for... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Mr. Wilson |
Posted - 06 Oct 2005 : 15:16:53
Indeed. I'm not one to pick up Fantasy books hot off the presses, but this book I'm simply going to have to get the first time I see it. |
| Murray Leeder |
Posted - 17 Sep 2005 : 06:55:53
Son of Thunder comes out in January.
I did exchange some emails with Paul Jaquays, though most of his vision I gleaned from the Savage Frontier accessory.
Glad to be generating interest. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Sep 2005 : 03:30:38
quote:
Originally posted by Murray Leeder
Well, I hope not to disappoint. My book is not free of the bronzed barbarian superwarrior mythology, but I aimed to examine its underlying foundation, while depicting a tribe and a few individuals torn between adhering to ancient customs and adapting to a changing world.
The examination is the part I'll find most interesting. At least you're willing to give your barbarian characters a more solid grounding, and explore the dynamic that makes the Uthgardt what they are.
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| Ulrik Wolfsbane |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 22:46:37
Murray, have you talked to Paul Jaquays at all about his orignal vision of the Uthgradt? Just curious... |
| Ulrik Wolfsbane |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 22:44:57
Good good great! The Uthgardt are probably the the only human culture with a developed mythology (as opposed to religion/cosmology), however brief it might be. Blending ancient heroes like Uther, the Bey and Morgred with superstition and legend gives the Uthgardt a sense of history and depth the other ethnicities really lack (are the Chondathans are just 'fantasy humans' or have i missed something? My players claim they are like late medieval Italians. I'm not sure if i can see it). I'm looking forward to the novel Murray, what was the release date again? |
| Murray Leeder |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 20:23:52
quote:
Originally posted by Brom Greenstar
aside from my obvious interest for the book, since it may have details to add to my campaign, it'll be fun to compare your descriptions with mine
will you explore the myths of the uthgardt? (like beorunna's return)or will you focus on the present day problems of the tribe?
That's a definite "a little from column A, a little from column B." |
| Brom Greenstar |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 20:10:34
aside from my obvious interest for the book, since it may have details to add to my campaign, it'll be fun to compare your descriptions with mine
will you explore the myths of the uthgardt? (like beorunna's return)or will you focus on the present day problems of the tribe? |
| Murray Leeder |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 15:46:17
Well, I hope not to disappoint. My book is not free of the bronzed barbarian superwarrior mythology, but I aimed to examine its underlying foundation, while depicting a tribe and a few individuals torn between adhering to ancient customs and adapting to a changing world. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 15:09:09
And it's one FR novel that I'm definitely waiting to read. After the discussions we've had previously in this scroll, I've been anticipating the "barbarian focus" of this book... especially because of Murray's previous comments about his efforts to give the typical "barbarian stereotype" a more appropriate and accurate form.
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| Murray Leeder |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 13:51:41
I do have a scroll in the Chamber of Sages already, it's just kind of down the list now. I'm sure once the novel comes out I'll get some more posts. |
| Brom Greenstar |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 13:43:20
I'll try to get it anyway. Right now it would be fantastic if Alaundo or any of the high scribes gives you your rightful place on the chamber of sages |
| Murray Leeder |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 21:32:27
Yes, in Realms of Shadow. Son of Thunder follows its events, but I tried to design the novel to be accessible without having read "The Fallen Lands." |
| Brom Greenstar |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 21:12:39
IMC uthgardt folk are in an all out war against malarites, lead by a champion of the Red Tiger tribe (a pc), but Gundar was one of his main suporters
The fallen land appears in Realms of Shadows right?
I'll have to delay my purchase waiting for your book then :) |
| Murray Leeder |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 20:30:25
quote:
Originally posted by Brom Greenstar
so far Uthgar has not been able to stop the process, so he is losing worshipers to Auril and Tyr
by the way who is the leader of the thunder beast tribe? gundar brontoskin or someone new?
In my short story "The Fallen Lands," the leader of the Thunderbeasts was established as Sungar Wolfkiller. You'll learn some background about what happened to Gundar and how Sungar came to succeed him in Son of Thunder. |
| Brom Greenstar |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 19:02:53
so far Uthgar has not been able to stop the process, so he is losing worshipers to Auril and Tyr
by the way who is the leader of the thunder beast tribe? gundar brontoskin or someone new? |
| khorne |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 18:44:21
quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
quote:
Originally posted by Ulrik Wolfsbane
Good point, sagacious one. I'm a fairly frequent player of Uthgardt in our FR campaigns, and often struggle against the perception of other players that barbarians must be unceasingly violent, unthinkingly brutal and willfully ignorant. And you're right, this is a pretty strong theme in fantasy literature too. Interestingly, Conan, who is pretty much the archetypal barbarian, is none of these things... if anything, he is the ultimate human, with the strength, cunning and honesty of the beast and the curiosity and the insight of a human. I wonder where it all went wrong? Any ideas?
Much of it likely stems from a backlash against the "noble savage" myth that so many people adhere to. In an attempt to denigrate the former, writers with different opinions often seem to rely on simplistic stereotypes and assumptions. Personally, I'm extremely critical of the "noble savage" idea and archetype, but that dosn't mean "barbarian" cultures are uncomplicated or worthless. That said, most of my thoughts concerning the Uthgardt revolve around the gradual absorption of the barbarian tribes into the Silver Marches and to what degree Uthgardt culture changes the dominant one.
The Uthgart are not going to change their lifestyle. That would mean that they would become civilized=soft. Uthgar would never allow that to happen. |
| lowtech |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 04:53:04
quote:
Originally posted by Ulrik Wolfsbane
Good point, sagacious one. I'm a fairly frequent player of Uthgardt in our FR campaigns, and often struggle against the perception of other players that barbarians must be unceasingly violent, unthinkingly brutal and willfully ignorant. And you're right, this is a pretty strong theme in fantasy literature too. Interestingly, Conan, who is pretty much the archetypal barbarian, is none of these things... if anything, he is the ultimate human, with the strength, cunning and honesty of the beast and the curiosity and the insight of a human. I wonder where it all went wrong? Any ideas?
Much of it likely stems from a backlash against the "noble savage" myth that so many people adhere to. In an attempt to denigrate the former, writers with different opinions often seem to rely on simplistic stereotypes and assumptions. Personally, I'm extremely critical of the "noble savage" idea and archetype, but that dosn't mean "barbarian" cultures are uncomplicated or worthless. That said, most of my thoughts concerning the Uthgardt revolve around the gradual absorption of the barbarian tribes into the Silver Marches and to what degree Uthgardt culture changes the dominant one. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 02:43:40
Both the 2e The Savage Frontier tome and The North boxed set also list most of the Uthgardt barbarian tribes.
As I recall, Silver Marches also has some specifics on the various tribes.
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| Ulrik Wolfsbane |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 02:40:45
Curses, in my usual clumsy fashion I had crafted a fairly long response to your question but then lost it all. Yes all the current tribes are currect but haven't always existed in their current forms. The Tree Ghost are an offshoot of the Blue Bear, who left the tribe after the Blue Bear spirit was 'corrupted' by Malar. This is fairly inexplicable in game terms, as Uthgar is the source of all divine power for the Uthgardt even if it is filtered through his totem animals (status unknown, maybe equivalent of a greater celestial?) so how an aspect of him could be corrupted I'm not sure... Unless his AVATARS are sort of slighly free willed, each in the form of one of his beat totems... That sounds a bit better, if a little off the wall... Opinions?
That brings me to something that's been nagging me for a while... if Uthgar is neutral, what sort of outsiders serve him? There don't seem to ne any powerful neutral outsiders that seem appropriate... Not Invincibles, certainly not Slaadi... Suggestions anyone? And along those lines, are there generic 'petitioner' stats anywhere? PGF gives planar traits for Faerunian petitioners but not the stats themselves).
Back to the Uthgardt, the appearance of a NEW totem (Tree Ghost) is fairly interesting. I understand that on his deathbed Uther Gardolfsson ordered his followers to take the spirits of the creatures he had defeated as their guides... Why did no tribe take Tree Ghost at that time? Or are there more spirits waiting to be revealed or reveal themselves as guardians of the Uthgardt? And how exactly do the spirits 'die'? Do they wither through lack of worship like normal deities? I think somewhere earlier on this thread we discussed the possibility of one of the lost tribes being resurrected... An adventure to recover Morgur's spear from the grimlocks of the Red Pony and re-establish that tribe would be cool, someone should give it a go... I'm keen for collaboration if anyone is interested...
Finally, the best sources for information on the Uthgardt are The Savage Frontier (1st ed), The North boxed set (2nd ed) and the Mintiper's Chapbook series on the FR website (find it in the archives). The 3rd ed FR products contain very little about the Uthgardt and Faiths and Pantheons is particularly disappointing. The Silver Marches has a little.
Hope that helps. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 22:01:42
As far as I know, the list of totems for Uthgardt clerics of Uthgar in Faiths & Pantheons, mentions all of the tribes.
Black Lion; Black Raven, Blue Bear (destroyed, the remnants are now calling themselves the Tree Ghost tribe), Elk, Grey Wolf, Great Worm, Griffon, Red Tiger, Sky Pony, and Thunderbeast.
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| khorne |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 20:19:14
Does anyone have a complete list of all the tribes? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 May 2005 : 14:29:56
Relevant source material includes The Savage Frontier, The North boxed set, Silver Marches, and Races of Faerun... in particular, the section on the Illuskan humans.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 20 May 2005 : 14:24:40
quote:
Originally posted by TymoraChosen
Erm ,excuse me. I heard that the Uthgardt are actually descendants of some Netherese, am I right and also are they similar or different to the barbarians found in the Spine of The World?
The Uthgardt are actually a people of mixed heritage. We know that Northmen fugitives, Netherese refugess, and the odd savage tribe, have all contributed to the barbarian peoples we now know as the Uthgardt.
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| Ulrik Wolfsbane |
Posted - 20 May 2005 : 13:18:58
Unless someone beats me too it, I'll answer your question in depth in the morning... There are a few good sources that I'll point you to... Goodnight I'm sleepy. |
| TymoraChosen |
Posted - 20 May 2005 : 12:44:33
Erm ,excuse me. I heard that the Uthgardt are actually descendants of some Netherese, am I right and also are they similar or different to the barbarians found in the Spine of The World? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 May 2005 : 02:09:36
That's good to hear. It suggests that the nature of what it means to be an Uthgardt has been looked at from a different perspective, and I know I'm going to enjoy learning more about them given what you've said here already  .
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| Murray Leeder |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 16:54:14
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oh, you've created more than just "some" interest from this Realms devotee...  .
As I stated earlier, I've been eagerly anticipating a "good" barbarian novel for a very long time, an I'm not just talking only about the Realms here. I've read a few non-Realms/non-WotC barbarian novels over the past year, and I've grown weary of the brutish and imbecilic stereotype that some authors seem to equate with a "barbarian" type.
Well I hope you'll find that my barbarians aren't too brutish, etc. If anything, I've been a little concerned that I've written them as too articlulate, etc. |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 08:48:08
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Ulrik Wolfsbane
Tell us something of it, Kuje...
Catch me online about it since Big Al is itching to whip me again because I have 3 or 4 scrolls I need to finish for Candlekeep. Those darn dead people are real pains in the nether regions. :)
Well met
A wise move indeed, kuje   |
| Kuje |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 07:33:22
quote:
Originally posted by Ulrik Wolfsbane
Tell us something of it, Kuje...
Catch me online about it since Big Al is itching to whip me again because I have 3 or 4 scrolls I need to finish for Candlekeep. Those darn dead people are real pains in the nether regions. :) |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:43:36
quote:
Originally posted by Ulrik Wolfsbane
Interestingly, Conan, who is pretty much the archetypal barbarian, is none of these things... if anything, he is the ultimate human, with the strength, cunning and honesty of the beast and the curiosity and the insight of a human. I wonder where it all went wrong? Any ideas?
One bad movie by a prominent action star; coupled with the fact that Western folk have long bought into the propaganda of cultures that, historically, were out to undermine "barbarian" cultures?
Anthropologically speaking, rural, tribal man is far mroe psychological and sociologically well adjusted and "in-touch" than urban, civilized man, who suffers from all sorts of stress and anxiety related quirks, disorders and illness and exists in a general state of alienation from his fellow and the world of nature.
In terms of Conan, well, what kind of "ignorant brute" can wander from culture to culture, over and over again, and not only quickly pick up the new language and culture, but also masters them to the extent that he is able to insinuated himself into the highest levels of the societies in question? Eventually, Conan becomes the leader of the mightiest nation in all of the Western Hyborean World, Aquilonian, and he steers it well. Clearly, not by mere strength alone did Conan rise to fame and glory. Jocks and geeks alike, beware!!
The same can be said of the historical barbarians of the West, whom, in contrast to the image painted in the movie 13th Warrior, more often found themselves in the position of having to learn a foreign tongue and culture, and who eventually emerged as the leaders of the West.
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