| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Phobos |
Posted - 22 Jul 2004 : 13:32:28
so as my first post i decided to call for help! :) i am about to throw the hellgate keep adventure at my players in the next one or two months and since yesterday i'm trying to sort out the fey'ri - hellgate keep connection... i would like to explain how i understood things and i would beg you to correct me if i am wrong and help me out. i don't own every book of the 2nd/3e/3.5 FR line... so be kind.
house dlardrageth is originally a cormanthirian house, survivors of the crown wars, but part of the arcorar elves, right? the first question would be... who are the arcorar elves? the dlardrageth started breeding spawns with tanar'ri to strengthen their bloodline and for that they were punished by the rest of the elves of arcorar (other clans) and trapped under their own castle. some of them, seven to be exact, escaped and hid where hellgate keep is now, well was but was not back then... oh, you know! the arcorar high mages, after some centuries, checked on the dlardrageth and realised some where missing, found the escapees and killed 4 of them. the other three they trapped in their new home, underground. somehow this sparked the seven citadel's war... didn't really get it why, eventhough hellgate keep makes a small comment.
after the destruction of hellgate keep these three were freed.
the fey'ri are offsprings of three minor houses of siluvanede (another of the many elven nations, situated n the high forest, i can't seem to be able to keep in my memory... too many of them i think). these bred with tanar'ri as well and were imprisoned as well probably by the arcorar elves. when hellgate keep was destroyed the three nobles that were freed (ryvvik, sarya and xhalh) found the fey'ri and started the organisation described in LoD (Lords of Darkness). ryvvik though was killed by his aunt sarya, for whatever reason.
now the other two guys... the marquis cambion kaanyr vhok and aliiza, where just part of the tanar'ri trapped in hellgate keep before it was destroyed and were freed as well... so they have no connection per se to house dlardrageth but to the tanarruk. another question would be... what happened to them two? i know he appears in one of the war of the SQ novels but do they appear in supplements as well?
is that more or less correct???
another question would be... if a cambion is a half fiend... what is a marquis cambion. i mean how would you show, abilitywise in 3.5 that he is more powerful? this last question might not belong in this part of the forum but it felt natural to ask it in the same thread.
thank you for your patience... and in advance for your help! :) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 06 Nov 2020 : 22:00:38
Learned Scribe PattPlays,
quote:
Finally someone breaks down the hierarchy of the terms. So Fey'ri as a pc race might just be a demonic powerswap of tiefling made to fit an elf subrace..
Indeed Master Rupert is correct as evidenced by the entry from Races of Faeurn (p118-9):
quote:
Having bred with these demons and among their own kind, fey'ri are a distinct race and share the same common fiendish traits.
Best regards,
|
| PattPlays |
Posted - 27 Sep 2020 : 12:00:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
I'm going to have to pull up some information because I can't tell when a Fey'ri child would be daemonfey, cambion, half-elf, or some other combination. I have no clue how elven races (especially after the deliberate acts of these folk to mess with their own bloodlines) would intermix in terms of fanwritten characters and playable races.
IIRC, the first generation off-spring -- the ones with a fiendish parent -- were cambions. If one of these cambions mated with an elf, the outcome was fey'ri, and amongst themselves, fey'ri breed true.
Also IIRC, daemonfey is a collection term referring to both those first generation cambions and the later generation fey'ri.
Finally someone breaks down the hierarchy of the terms. So Fey'ri as a pc race might just be a demonic powerswap of tiefling made to fit an elf subrace.. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 16:32:54
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
I'm going to have to pull up some information because I can't tell when a Fey'ri child would be daemonfey, cambion, half-elf, or some other combination. I have no clue how elven races (especially after the deliberate acts of these folk to mess with their own bloodlines) would intermix in terms of fanwritten characters and playable races.
IIRC, the first generation off-spring -- the ones with a fiendish parent -- were cambions. If one of these cambions mated with an elf, the outcome was fey'ri, and amongst themselves, fey'ri breed true.
Also IIRC, daemonfey is a collection term referring to both those first generation cambions and the later generation fey'ri. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 07:55:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of fey'ri had shapechanging abilities -- during Lady Sarya's campaigns, it would have been trivial for any of them to shapechange and slip away, particularly in battle...
But a couple of other ideas I've considered: what if a small group -- maybe a single family -- managed to hide and avoid imprisonment? These fey'ri could have been slowly growing their numbers in the intervening millennia, and they may or may not have been cool with the return of House Dlardrageth.
Or -- what if, during the time between the imprisonment and the release of the fey'ri, another ambitious house managed to lay hands on the relevant info to breed some new fey'ri? Similar to my other idea, they may or may not have shared the goals of House Dlardrageth.
My issue with this is the disintegration of House Dlardrageth with the exception of a few individuals like Lilianviaten and others. I don't think we know at all who leads them, aside from the wounded general who resides in a tower in Elvenport.
Why is it an issue who leads the Dlardrageth remnant, in regards to deserters who -- as you said -- "stopped thinking of themselves as House Dlardrageth and its allies and instead identified as individuals yearning to see how the world has changed in 3000 years"?
Sarya had some fey'ri scouts out, checking out the nations of the wider Realms -- any of them could have decided to just walk away from House Dlardrageth. Or a fey'ri could have stayed loyal for a while, but after a few lost battles began to rethink things, and then either shapechanged into a member of an opposing force and left with them, or used their abilities to appear to have been slain, and then got up and walked off afterward.
I'll agree that my other ideas are tricky, perhaps too tricky to pull off -- though keeping their numbers very small, and/or have them be far more recent, would mitigate some of that. Still, it's easier to just go with the deserter angle.
Ooooh.. Now I'm thinking of a scout who aligns them-self in opposition and leaks information, playing a major part in the survival of the allied forces at Cwm..
Also, those scouts make a great case for half-fey'ri youths scattered across Toril.
I'm going to have to pull up some information because I can't tell when a Fey'ri child would be daemonfey, cambion, half-elf, or some other combination. I have no clue how elven races (especially after the deliberate acts of these folk to mess with their own bloodlines) would intermix in terms of fanwritten characters and playable races. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 06:08:05
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of fey'ri had shapechanging abilities -- during Lady Sarya's campaigns, it would have been trivial for any of them to shapechange and slip away, particularly in battle...
But a couple of other ideas I've considered: what if a small group -- maybe a single family -- managed to hide and avoid imprisonment? These fey'ri could have been slowly growing their numbers in the intervening millennia, and they may or may not have been cool with the return of House Dlardrageth.
Or -- what if, during the time between the imprisonment and the release of the fey'ri, another ambitious house managed to lay hands on the relevant info to breed some new fey'ri? Similar to my other idea, they may or may not have shared the goals of House Dlardrageth.
My issue with this is the disintegration of House Dlardrageth with the exception of a few individuals like Lilianviaten and others. I don't think we know at all who leads them, aside from the wounded general who resides in a tower in Elvenport.
Why is it an issue who leads the Dlardrageth remnant, in regards to deserters who -- as you said -- "stopped thinking of themselves as House Dlardrageth and its allies and instead identified as individuals yearning to see how the world has changed in 3000 years"?
Sarya had some fey'ri scouts out, checking out the nations of the wider Realms -- any of them could have decided to just walk away from House Dlardrageth. Or a fey'ri could have stayed loyal for a while, but after a few lost battles began to rethink things, and then either shapechanged into a member of an opposing force and left with them, or used their abilities to appear to have been slain, and then got up and walked off afterward.
I'll agree that my other ideas are tricky, perhaps too tricky to pull off -- though keeping their numbers very small, and/or have them be far more recent, would mitigate some of that. Still, it's easier to just go with the deserter angle. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 26 Sep 2020 : 03:40:56
Oooh... bad history with Evereska... Yikes. Did not know about the Battle of Cwm.
Okay maybe I'm being a bit too pie in the sky in this scenario. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 05:33:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of fey'ri had shapechanging abilities -- during Lady Sarya's campaigns, it would have been trivial for any of them to shapechange and slip away, particularly in battle...
But a couple of other ideas I've considered: what if a small group -- maybe a single family -- managed to hide and avoid imprisonment? These fey'ri could have been slowly growing their numbers in the intervening millennia, and they may or may not have been cool with the return of House Dlardrageth.
Or -- what if, during the time between the imprisonment and the release of the fey'ri, another ambitious house managed to lay hands on the relevant info to breed some new fey'ri? Similar to my other idea, they may or may not have shared the goals of House Dlardrageth.
My issue with this is the disintegration of House Dlardrageth with the exception of a few individuals like Lilianviaten and others. I don't think we know at all who leads them, aside from the wounded general who resides in a tower in Elvenport. And having Fey'ri that were never imprisoned opens up more problems, and simply assumes that generations of Daemonfey simply hid in shapechanged forms for ages.
I think we could really play up the freedom aspect of escaping the Nameless Dungeon. What if after watching their leadership fail time and time again, some of the Fey'ri stopped thinking of themselves as House Dlardrageth and its allies and instead identified as individuals yearning to see how the world has changed in 3000 years. Inject that corny 5e goodness into them and treat them the way we treated Drow. What would the goals of a group of Fey'ri be if they disbanded from their leadership and sought ways to achieve their goals without declaring war on the realms of elves and dwarves? What other grudges would they hold? Would they seek out their Sun Elf cousins?
I am fixated on some very young 'millennial' half-fiend elves going out into the world, knowing only the 'peace' (there were battles but House Dlardrageth got quashed and lost it's figurehead) of the unwritten century following the end of 4e and trying to find themselves in a similar direction to the many new Asmodean Tieflings. With the leaders of the house having demonic fathers of course they will be incredibly evil-aligned. But what about the average lower-class Fey'ri breeding with one-another in their new open-air countryside and them jsut breeding with one another and producing offspring that aren't complete half-fiends? What of their breeding programs and kidnappings producing half-daemonfey mixed elves who have no clue what to do in their life after escaping the awful eugenic process they get born into? Gosh, can you imagine a band of Harper agents stealing some children of enslaved sun-elves and raising them in places like Waterdeep- or shipping them off to live in obscurity in Icewind Dale? I want to see some debates from the elves of Evereska on whether or not they would tolerate innocent half-Daemonfey children! God knows the elves of the north have literally nothing going on in the 1480's.. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 04:40:28
A lot of fey'ri had shapechanging abilities -- during Lady Sarya's campaigns, it would have been trivial for any of them to shapechange and slip away, particularly in battle...
But a couple of other ideas I've considered: what if a small group -- maybe a single family -- managed to hide and avoid imprisonment? These fey'ri could have been slowly growing their numbers in the intervening millennia, and they may or may not have been cool with the return of House Dlardrageth.
Or -- what if, during the time between the imprisonment and the release of the fey'ri, another ambitious house managed to lay hands on the relevant info to breed some new fey'ri? Similar to my other idea, they may or may not have shared the goals of House Dlardrageth. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 25 Sep 2020 : 03:48:51
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The epilogue is set in 1380 DR.
-- George Krashos
Well, here's hoping I do them justice when my players run into one of them in Auramycos. One hundred years of unwritten history.. Now I'm wondering a few different things.
1. How many new sub-century Fey'ri could have been born in the Delimbyr vale with that time?
2. Would the spellplague have fatigued the deeply magical fiendish peoples of House Dlardrageth?
3. Would the newer generation of Fey'ri refer to a host of demonic invaders as family or kin? Would them being near actual physically present Demon Lords be.. interesting? I have plans to use Grazz't in Elvenport, and I'm wondering if the Daemonfey would jump on the opportunity to breed a most undeniably powerful new generation of SUPER Fey'ri with him?
4. I'm always a fan of time and obscurity leading evil populations into neutrality and innocence. How strong of a compulsion to evil would the freed Fey'ri have? My demon obsessed Fey'ri and the Ghaunadaur worshipping cultists and those following what's left of their multi-millennia old leading family members would be evil for sure, with plenty of vendettas against the peoples of Faerun. But would the slow scouting into the post-spellplague world of the North lead to the potential for young 100 year old Daemonfey to come of age and roam the world? Would regular northfolk recognize a Fey'ri as an ancient enemy or would they be no more suspicious of 5e's influx of good Tieflings Dragonborn and row?
Honestly I'm considering designing a playable race for them, I'm just hooked on everything related to the Ilithir elves..
If a handful of Fey'ri wished to leave Hellgate Dell and Elvenport, I wonder where would be a good place for them to start a new life..
Oh man, Icewind Dale would be a great place to find a fey'ri adventurer seeking obscurity and adventure.. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 23 Sep 2020 : 06:17:32
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Quick question, what is the furthest year forward that said trilogy goes in the timeline?
Also- HAH! Thank you Krashos! Now I have evidence for exactly what I was wondering about, tunnels from Ascalhorn leading southeast into the region of Arramyndarinammimimanemone. Fantastic. Maybe I should build an ancient dwarven outpost to connect a Hellgate tunnel to a surface access beneath Elven Port! Time to build a cult of Ghaunadaur worshipping Fey'ri mixed with a variety of evil northern monsters...
The epilogue is set in 1380 DR.
-- George Krashos |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 23 Sep 2020 : 02:35:53
Quick question, what is the furthest year forward that said trilogy goes in the timeline?
Also- HAH! Thank you Krashos! Now I have evidence for exactly what I was wondering about, tunnels from Ascalhorn leading southeast into the region of Arramyndarinammimimanemone. Fantastic. Maybe I should build an ancient dwarven outpost to connect a Hellgate tunnel to a surface access beneath Elven Port! Time to build a cult of Ghaunadaur worshipping Fey'ri mixed with a variety of evil northern monsters... |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 23 Sep 2020 : 01:06:36
The confusion stems from the fact that Hellgate Keep was conquered several times by different power groups in short space of time. That's the reason for the aberrant FRCS (3e) and Silver Marches timeline entries. The Hellgate Keep historical entries are as follows:
882 DR
- Ascalhorn falls and becomes Hellgate Keep. The triumphant demons stream forth, rousing the orcs of the surrounding mountains and forming the Demontusk Horde which brings about the fall of Eaerlann, Siluvanede and Ammarindar. Some elves and dwarves flee to the trading site of Loudwater, where a settlement is established.
883 DR
- Wulgreth of Ascalhorn flees Hellgate Keep to the ruined city of Karse. The Dire Wood is created when he is slain by Jhingleshod whilst attempting to tap the immortal power of the dead god Karsus. Upon his death, Wulgreth of Ascalhorn is transformed into a lich.
- An eddy of magical chaos emanating from Hellgate Keep causes the Hall of Mists and Grandfather Tree in the High Forest to be infested with a colony of warped, gargantuan red ants.
886 DR
- Wards are placed around Hellgate Keep by the Harpers to prevent the demons there from using their summoning abilities to increase their number.
890 DR
- The fiends of Hellgate Keep begin to tunnel beneath the ruined city to escape the wards of the Harpers.
912 DR
- The first fiend-hewn tunnels are completed north out of Hellgate keep toward the Nether Mountains.
919 DR
- Hellgate Keep’s forces are forced from their deep tunnels for a time by the Morueme clan of blue dragons.
1221 DR
- The fiends of Hellgate Keep dig tunnels to connect the catacombs beneath Ascalhorn with the deep tunnels of Ammarindar.
1311 DR
- Tanta Hagara, a shapeshifting annis from Hellgate Keep seizes the chieftainship of the Blue Bear Uthgardt tribe.
1356 DR
- The tunnels of Hellgate Keep now connect with the Nameless Dungeon to the southwest under the High Forest.
1365 DR
- Grintharke, the demon leader of Hellgate Keep is slain by elven adventurers and a trio of marilith seize control.
1366 DR
- Fall of the marilith Amassyra the Tricoil; the rule of Hellgate Keep now falls to Ssaarn of the Five Hands and Mulvassyss the Sceptered.
1367 DR
- A mongrelman army led by Radoc attacks Hellgate Keep out of the High Forest and both sides suffer grave losses. The marilith Ssaarn is slain and her counterpart Mulvassyss assumes the rule of Hellgate Keep.
1368 DR
- The Blue Bear Uthgardt tribe and Tanta Hagara conquer Hellgate Keep with the aid of the cambion Kaanyr Vhok.
1369 DR
- Demons from Hellgate keep assault Silverymoon, Sundabar and the Citadel of the Mists.
- Led by the Mistmaster, the Harpers destroy Hellgate Keep through use of an artifact known as the Gatekeeper’s Crystal. Tanta Hagara and the Blue Bear Uthgardt tribe are also destroyed.
- The daemonfey of House Dlardrageth are set free by the destruction of Hellgate Keep after millennia of imprisonment.
- A contingent of orcs and tanarukks from the Scourged Legion, survivors of the fall of Hellgate Keep, seize the now accessible Nameless Dungeon in the High Forest.
1370 DR
- The treants of Tall Trees led by Turlang the Thoughtful seal off Hellgate Keep from Silverymoon and begin reforesting the upper Delimbiyr.
1371 DR
- An army of tanarruk warriors from the Scoured Legion of Hellgate Keep, led by the cambion/half-fiend Kaanyr Vhok, secure Northpeak in the Greypeak Mountains.
1372 DR
- The Daemonfey occupy Myth Glaurach and use their magic to subvert its mythal.
And then the events of the Daemonfey War as set out in the Last Mythal trilogy ensue.
-- George Krashos |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 04:28:07
quote:
Silver Marches (3e) PG. 28, 1368 DR, "Now buried under the northeast corner of the forest, thiscitadel of evil was razed in 1368 DR. Turlang and his treantsmoved to advance the borders of the forest and submerge theold fortress in the depths of the trees. Adventurers seeking todisturb the ruins are turned back by the treants."
Ah, now there's an answer! Completely covered by the trees, good to know.
..Do you think there's an underdark tunnel from Elvenport to Hellgate that the forces of the region would use to navigate? |
| Phaesporia |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 03:43:41
I didn't realize it was destroyed offscreen, that's interesting! And thanks for the headsup about The North, I'll look into it!
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Umm, both the Hellgate Keep adventure and Cloak and Dagger have the former destroyed (quite rightly) in 1369 DR not 1368 DR. Where do you say the sources state that it was destroyed in 1368 DR? All the sources have 1369 DR in fact ...
And there is nothing inconsistent in Grand History of the Realms or the Last Mythal novel trilogy regarding Hellgate Keep or these events either so as to discount them as legitimate sources. No retcon has occurred. Well at least, not in this respect.
-- George Krashos
The inconsistencies between the sources I linked and the Grand History/Lost Empires of Faerun/Last Mythal novels are that the three just mentioned have the Dlardrageth release at 1369 instead of 1368 and mention a legion of Fey'ri released from the Nameless Dungeon in 1374 instead of a group not large enough for direct attacks/exposing the faction that were freed by the Dlardrageth shortly after their release.
Looking back, I will make one correction that the fey'ri who were imprisoned are descendants of the houses from Siluvanede, imprisoned in 882 DR (Cloak and Dagger, pg 92).
As for the sources before those, rechecking them, it seems the FRCS 3e and Silver Marches are the only ones that say 1368 DR. I'm not really sure how I confused those and I'm not sure why it bounces back and forth, but I'll edit my post to reflect this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention! Here's a list of the sources mentioned, with the page numbers and years the Dlardrageth were released.
Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves - Only mentions Dlardrageth Keep
Hellgate Keep (2e) - PG. 8, 1369 DR
Cloak and Dagger (2e) - PG. 93, 1369 DR
FRCS (3e) — PG. 166, 1368 DR, "In 1368 DR, after attacks by elves had weakened the baatezu,members of the Harpers used powerful magic to destroy HellgateKeep, killing most of the baatezu. The great treant leader Turlangmoved in to seal off the area and keep the remaining fiends fromcausing more damage. At the present time, after several expeditionsby adventurers who evaded Turlang or bargained for passage, thesmoking crater that was Hellgate Keep seems pacified."
Player’s Guide to Faerun (3e) - Just mentions Delimbiyr Vale for Fey'ri
Lords of Darkness (3e) - PG 126, 1369 DR
Races of Faerun (3e) - PG 118, 1369 DR
Champions of Ruin (3.5e) Can't find a year
Silver Marches (3e) PG. 28, 1368 DR, "Now buried under the northeast corner of the forest, thiscitadel of evil was razed in 1368 DR. Turlang and his treantsmoved to advance the borders of the forest and submerge theold fortress in the depths of the trees. Adventurers seeking todisturb the ruins are turned back by the treants."
Monsters of Faerun (3e) PG. 74, 1369 DR |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 19 Sep 2020 : 03:41:53
quote:
Originally posted by Phaesporia
So, in 2e, Volo's Guide to the North and FRCS (2e) mentions Hellgate Keep but it hadn't been destroyed yet.
In Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves, there's mention of Dlardrageth Keep, giving it a bit of a backstory and how the house was trapped within before eventually murdering each other. In Hellgate and Cloak and Dagger, it talks about the surviving Dlardrageth family, the individuals, the Daemonfey faction and how they broke out when the Hellgate Keep was destroyed in 1368.
<snip>
Nothing up to this point contradicts itself (as far as Daemonfey lore goes, Hellgate Keep lore seems to have a few but always falls in 1368), the lore only adding or summarizing the events that have unfolded, not including any information from the Last Mythal Trilogy.
Now, there are two 3.5e sources that seem to push into 4e lore and retcon information thus far; the Grand History of the Realms and Lost Empires of Faerun. They place the Daemonfey release in 1369 DR instead of 1368 DR and later talk about releasing a Fey'ri legion as well as 1374 shenanigans.
These two sources very clearly take from the novels instead of the 10 listed lore sources, and they also lead into 4e.
The novels are interesting, but I personally wouldn't take them as lore given the strange retcons that happen right around the time things were leading to the release of 4e but that's the list of sources on Dlardrageth, Hellgate, and the Daemonfey I've found thusfar. I may be missing a few pre-4e! I highly recommend anyone who's interested to read them as it's fascinating lore. Most of the details are in the 2e sources, Champions of Ruin (3e) and Lords of Darkness (3e), the rest seem to touch upon what's already there before the two sources that begin retconning details.
Umm, both the Hellgate Keep adventure and Cloak and Dagger have the former destroyed (quite rightly) in 1369 DR not 1368 DR. Where do you say the sources state that it was destroyed in 1368 DR? All the sources have 1369 DR in fact ...
And there is nothing inconsistent in Grand History of the Realms or the Last Mythal novel trilogy regarding Hellgate Keep or these events either so as to discount them as legitimate sources. No retcon has occurred. Well at least, not in this respect.
-- George Krashos |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 18 Sep 2020 : 04:50:57
Just because I am a nutcase for the Delimbyr valley, I do want to ask if it would be okay to append this thread with further comments on Hellgate in the modern era? Perhaps in a sense of continuing this compendium of all mentions across editions.
As far as my research has gone it seems that, in 1485+, Hellgate Dell is a raised crater which is all but overgrown by the forest and is protected by Treants. I always wondered what this would look like to a 5e explorer. Do we think the place has a certain radius where the foliage doesn't get close enough? The treants are said to attack or persuade those who get close to Hellgate and turn them back, but I wonder how close they get to such an evil place itself.
I always wondered what effect the remaining creatures inside Hellgate Dell would have on the region, and at which distance in feet or miles that explorers would enter into some dread aura.
I also am fascinated by Elvenport.. there is so much history in this area that has next to nothing detailed in 5e. (Storm King's Thunder has so much information about all sorts of places, yet has not a single mention of Hellgate keep.) The potential in each single creature in that region is endless.. I mean, if there are still 3000 year old Fey'ri from the Nameless Dungeon (or their descendants) then both Hellgate Dell's ruins as well as the rogue's haven of Elvenport are veritable time capsules! However getting there to do any kind of anthropology would likely be nigh impossible... 3000 year old creatures.. |
| AJA |
Posted - 17 Sep 2020 : 19:40:11
quote:
Originally posted by Phaesporia
So, in 2e, Volo's Guide to the North and FRCS (2e) mentions Hellgate Keep but it hadn't been destroyed yet.
Hellgate Keep was destroyed "offscreen," relayed in location descriptions and the "History" section (starting roughly p.10 of The Wilderness booklet) of The North box set (2E, 1996). This only mentions "fiends" and the annis there, no fey'ri yet.
|
| Phaesporia |
Posted - 17 Sep 2020 : 16:39:28
So, in 2e, Volo's Guide to the North and FRCS (2e) mentions Hellgate Keep but it hadn't been destroyed yet.
In Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves, there's mention of Dlardrageth Keep, giving it a bit of a backstory and how the house was trapped within before eventually murdering each other. In Hellgate and Cloak and Dagger, it talks about the surviving Dlardrageth family, the individuals, the Daemonfey faction and how they broke out when the Hellgate Keep was destroyed in 1369. After it was destroyed, they went to the Nameless Dungeon (also called Nar Kerymhoarth and the fifth out of five armory the Daemonfey had) and released several Fey'ri that had been imprisoned there by moon elves. These fey'ri were the survivors/descendants of those who fought in the Seven Citadels' War, imprisoned in 882 DR.
That seems to be where the lore begins, which, is touched up upon in 3e/3.5e.
Now, skip to 3e/3.5e and we have the FRCS (3e) where it specifies the Harpers destroyed the Hellgate Keep and the Dlardrageth were released, who then released the Fey'ri from the Nameless Dungeon. There's also Player's Guide to Faerun, Lords of Darkness, Races of Faerun, Champions of Ruin, Silver Marches,and Monsters of Faerun. These all talk about the Daemonfey/Fey'ri, the Dlardrageths being released from the destruction of Hellgate and them releasing the Fey'ri from the Nameless Dungeon soon after.
------------------------------------------------------------
Only the FRCS 3e and Silver Marches set the destruction of Hellgate Keep at 1368 DR, the rest have it as 1369 DR in 2e and 3e+. I'm not sure why 2e sets it at 1369 DR, only to be retconned in the FRCS and Silver Marches as 1368 DR, then go back to 1369 DR, but that's what I've found after re-looking into it.
The novels are interesting, but I personally wouldn't take them as lore given the craziness that happens in them. Anyhow, that's the list of sources on Dlardrageth, Hellgate, and the Daemonfey I've found thusfar. I may be missing a few pre-4e! I highly recommend anyone who's interested to read them as it's fascinating lore. Most of the details are in the 2e sources, Champions of Ruin (3e) and Lords of Darkness (3e), the rest seem to touch upon what's already there or give more detail in the Seven Citadel's War.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the short list:
[Hellgate exists, no mention of Daemonfey/Dlardrageth]
Volo’s Guide to the North (2e)
FRCS (2e)
[Daemonfey lore starts, Hellgate falls in 1369 DR]
Hellgate Keep (2e)—talks about Dlardrageth individuals
Cloak and Dagger (2e)—faction details and 7 surviving Dlardrageth, 4 dead 3 imprisoned
Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves (2e)—Dlardrageth Keep backstory
[Existing lore is touched up for 3e, 1368 DR instead of 1369]
FRCS (3e)
Silver Marches (3e)
[3e Destruction of Hellgate Keep goes back to 1369]
Player’s Guide to Faerun (3e)
Lords of Darkness (3e)
Races of Faerun (3e)
Champions of Ruin (3.5e)
Monsters of Faerun (3e)
[3e, getting ready for 4e, goes to 1374 DR and has the Hellgate destruction at 1369 DR]
Grand History of the Realms (3.5e-4e) Dlardrageth released in 1369 DR, but goes to 1374, lore taken from novels
Lost Empires of Faerun (3.5e-4e) same as above, lore taken from novels
(Edited to show 1369/1368 differences in sources and correct a few statements) |
| Duneth Despana |
Posted - 02 Aug 2015 : 00:24:12
(misposted) |
| monknwildcat |
Posted - 23 Apr 2008 : 19:24:43
back-story wise:
If you're talking about the 2nd ed Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elvesies, then, yes, it did, although I don't have it with me.
House Dlardrageth's pad figures (at a cameo level) in the Greenwood novel Elminster in Myth Drannor, too, I believe.
But The North does a better job with the Keep itself. |
| Giilvas Vyshaan |
Posted - 15 Feb 2006 : 17:58:12
I don't know of publishing dates etc., but didn't Arcane Age: Cormanthor also talk about the Dlardrageth fiasco, and show where exactly in Myth Drannor the estate actually is/was? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Jan 2006 : 16:53:24
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Vvornth
What supplement/novel described the destruction of Hellgate Keep to begin with.
That would be the 2e adventure module -- Hellgate Keep.
Actually, it was "The North". "Hellgate Keep" built on it.
--Eric
May as well throw in Volo's Guide to the North and Savage Frontier, for mentions on the origins of Hellgate Keep  .
|
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 11 Jan 2006 : 15:09:26
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Vvornth
What supplement/novel described the destruction of Hellgate Keep to begin with.
That would be the 2e adventure module -- Hellgate Keep.
Actually, it was "The North". "Hellgate Keep" built on it.
--Eric |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Jan 2006 : 14:50:40
quote:
Originally posted by Vvornth
What supplement/novel described the destruction of Hellgate Keep to begin with.
That would be the 2e adventure module -- Hellgate Keep.
|
| Vvornth |
Posted - 11 Jan 2006 : 14:06:24
What supplement/novel described the destruction of Hellgate Keep to begin with. |
| Vangelor |
Posted - 11 Jan 2006 : 09:52:28
Best source on lost Elven realms is Lost Empires of Faerun. You get the whole backstory of the Crown Wars, the realms of Arcorar (which is the forest now called Cormanthor) and the realms of the High Forest, each in its own chapter. |
| benking27 |
Posted - 08 Apr 2005 : 22:24:45
Actually Ryvik was Sarya's son but she murdered him and elevated Xhalph to son status. |
| Phobos |
Posted - 25 Jul 2004 : 16:17:37
thank you george krashos (not greek by any chance are you??)
now i understand the whole thing at last. what book/supplement would i have to peek into to get to know all these elven realms a bit better?
last mythal is on top of my "i need to have" list! looking forward to the first part.
thanks again. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 25 Jul 2004 : 12:55:20
Although I can understand your confusion, you seem to have a grasp of what occurred but not why it occured. In other words, you fail to understand why the Seven Citadels War was sparked by the attacks of the elves of Arcorar against the remnants of House Dlardrageth.
The answer is quite simple: the rivalry (and sometimes outright prejudice) between gold elves and moon elves. Arcorar was the realm of elves in the Cormanthor forest. House Dlardrageth was a gold elf house that bred with demons, was found out and cast down by the horrified elves of Arcorar.
Some Dlardrageth members fled west to the High Forest region. They encouraged three minor gold elf houses of Siluvanede [at the time there are three elven realms in the High Forest: Siluvanede (exclusively gold elves), Sharrven (moon elves) and Eaerlann (mostly moon elves but with a few gold elves of Siluvanede who aren't as "superior" as their brethren)] to also consort with demons and begin their own foul breeding programs.
The attack on the remnants of House Dlardrageth by the elves of Arcorar (another elven realm entirely) with the aid of the moon elves of Eaerlann puts Siluvanede's nose out of joint. Sure, House Dlardrageth are a disgrace to gold elves, but they should be disciplined and brought down by other gold elves (i.e. those of Siluvanede), not 'lesser' moon elves.
The rest, as they say, is history. War breaks out. I suggest you get a copy of Rich Baker's "Last Mythal" novel trilogy when you can, as it deals with the history of these events in some detail.
-- George Krashos
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| Phobos |
Posted - 25 Jul 2004 : 09:51:18
you leave me no choise but to qoute star wars... "a yes or no will do"!!!
but seriously... is that a dumb question? i really feel overwhelmed by all this info coming from different books and the link between the fey'ri and that cambion elf house is a bit hazy for me! |
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