| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jeffrey Williams |
Posted - 31 Oct 2002 : 10:30:52
I really do not want to start a flame, but the worst thing about 3E Forgotten Realms is Sean K Reynold's obvious inclusion of the Shadow Weave in the 3E Campaign Setting.
Can anyone explain the nature of the Shadow Weave and why his explaination is so pointless, vague and often contridicts itself.
Can anyone explain why Shar and her minions have been able to train and breed shadow mages right under everyone's noses (sort of like 9-11 and Al-Quaeda) 
Why is that it appears in the 3E Forgotten Realms campaign setting and not other editions. 
Why Mystra can not sense it (even though she is the Goddess of the Weave)
why is a corrupted form of the Weave more powerful then a purified or coherent form of the same magics?
I hope I recieve some replies....
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 19 Aug 2007 : 15:26:18
Since it has been speculated in this thread years ago if the shadow weave is independent of the weave, which one is the mightier one, etc., I think it is good to quote lore form Ed himself in this thread* (post by THO on 15 Mar 2006 : 01:40:52) for further reference:
* Is there any way to link to a given post in a thread directly?
quote:
I sent this thread to Ed Greenwood for the definitive two coppers’ worth, and he’s replied.
Here’s Ed:
The concept of darkfire or shadowfire is attractive, but to champion it requires a misunderstanding of what the Shadow Weave really is. It’s NOT (despite the propaganda betimes put out by the clergy of Shar) a separate (and equal) system of magic to the Weave; rather, it exists as an echo of the Weave, matching and surpassing the Weave only when Shar personally feeds it with her divine power (and, being an essentially a selfish, ruthless entity, such feedings will be rare acts indeed; she doesn’t CARE what happens to mortal worshippers).
Spellfire is the raw energy of magic, a taste of the way magic was before there was a Weave, restricted (in some small ways) by the Weave (that is, by the will of Mystra). The Shadow Weave works by drawing on this same energy, so there is no shadowfire: there is only spellfire. Shar as a divine power could give certain of her mortal followers a “darkfire” analagous to the silver fire of Mystra (sharing her divine power, in other words), IF she desired to.
She could not give the Shadow Weave users spellfire, because it, by its very nature, consumes and rends shadow weave-magic far more swiftly and more widely than it does Weave-based spells.
To those who argue that Shar could kill Mystra or destroy the Weave: those two things are the same, as Mystra IS the Weave. No mortal yet knows what would then happen, but it should be obvious that as an echo of the Weave, the Shadow Weave itself would also be destroyed (or would collapse).
Remember, the Weave isn’t the energies of magic. The Weave is magic: that is, a system of harnessing those energies by means of an existing body of spells.
The new TOME OF MAGIC presents three other “systems” of harnessing energies (“magical forces,” most sages would call them). One of those systems is Shadow Magic, and it provides magic that followers of Shar could well turn to, either if the Weave is gone, OR if a DM wants to postulate that Shadow Weave users can tap into this system. Unfortunately, one of the things that Shadow Magic as presented in that tome doesn’t provide users is “shadowfire” or darkfire as it’s been discussed in this thread thus far.
Various TSR and WotC designers and fiction writers and I have discussed these matters many times over the years, to hammer out agreement on the specifics of what Mystra can and can’t do, what Shar can and can’t do, and what the Weave and the Shadow Weave can and can’t do. Please remember two things: divine situations in the Realms aren’t static; there will inevitably be “developments” in the struggle between Shar and Mystra. And as the creator of Shar, Mystra, AND the Realms, I’m in a position to see things more clearly than anyone else.
So saith Ed. Interesting, VERY interesting.
love to all,
THO
So:
- the shadow weave cannot exist independent from the weave without direct support from Shar
- the shadow weave will not match or surpass the weave except Shar intervenes |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 16 Aug 2007 : 12:36:35
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
When first glancing at this forum today, I saw the word "Spider Weave".
So I think there should be a special Spider Weave just for drow!
 |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Aug 2007 : 00:12:45
When first glancing at this forum today, I saw the word "Spider Weave".
So I think there should be a special Spider Weave just for drow! |
| ShepherdGunn |
Posted - 15 Aug 2007 : 12:46:16
I agree that it would be pointless to go to a good magic/bad magic concept. Is a gun a Good Gun or an Evil Gun because of who makes it? Not really, it's still a gun. Quality of a tool may be different, aspects, such as range, accuracy, and jamming may be different, but there's no "moral" alignment to the gun.
The same should be true for Magic, I think. Yes, the Shadow Weave is Dark, and cold, and apparently not good for the complexion, but to say it's ~EVIL~, and that Mystra based magic is ~GOOD~ is silly. No matter what the type of magic, it can be used to selfish or altruistic reasons.
The Light Side and Dark Side of the Force is important for the Star Wars core concept of evil verses good. Also, the Force is the Force, it in and of itself is not good or evil, it's the paths that one takes to manipulate and utilize the Force that is Light or Dark. Even if WotC was trying to use that as an example of the course of magic in the Realms, in the end Toril is not Coruscant. |
| reddfox321 |
Posted - 15 Aug 2007 : 01:49:06
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
Essentially they are quickly moving towards a good magic/bad magic situation, which I think would be silly and pointless.
Ugh, I'd hate for magic to turn into the force. Though I love SW I think that its too simple a way of thinking for my taste. I prefer the days when there was only magic and it was your own conscience that determines if the magic is "good" or "evil" (even if certain paths, like necromancy, bring you closer to "evil"). And you're right, magic has never been shown to be inherently good. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 17:40:04
quote:
Originally posted by Ty
Selunarra was previously known as Opus or am I incorrect?
I believe that is correct. I remember thinking it was odd to name a city after a comic strip penguin...   |
| Ty |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 16:24:23
Selunarra was previously known as Opus or am I incorrect? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 13:32:12
quote:
Originally posted by Shayan
Cities that survived the Fall of Netheril (I love Netheril  )
To quote Netheril: Empire of Magic - WoTC 2E (I think it's downloadable from the WoTC site now)
quote:
By the time she was completed, she was able to
save only three of Netheril’s floating cities; the rest were utterly
destroyed. These three—Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath—were
high enough above the ground to survive. The cities safely landed,
and the survivors stumbled away from the cities in shock.
Within a few short months, the inhabitants of the surviving
three cities left, fearful of the phaerimm, the gods, and the orcs.
About one-third migrated northward, with the rest traveling
south to create the shadows—or “survivor states” for the optimistic-
of Netheril; Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath.
It mentions nothing of Selûnarra.
I am very interested in finding out what happened to it. Any info is appreciated :)
The only real info is the blurb in Lost Empires of Faerûn. |
| Shayan |
Posted - 17 Jun 2005 : 13:03:51
Cities that survived the Fall of Netheril (I love Netheril )
To quote Netheril: Empire of Magic - WoTC 2E (I think it's downloadable from the WoTC site now)
quote:
By the time she was completed, she was able to
save only three of Netheril’s floating cities; the rest were utterly
destroyed. These three—Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath—were
high enough above the ground to survive. The cities safely landed,
and the survivors stumbled away from the cities in shock.
Within a few short months, the inhabitants of the surviving
three cities left, fearful of the phaerimm, the gods, and the orcs.
About one-third migrated northward, with the rest traveling
south to create the shadows—or “survivor states” for the optimistic-
of Netheril; Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath.
It mentions nothing of Selûnarra.
I am very interested in finding out what happened to it. Any info is appreciated :) |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 14 May 2005 : 09:09:03
Thank You, The Sage & Wooly Rupert for the replies. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 May 2005 : 06:33:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Also, if the Weave collapses, all magic save Shadow Magic remains, is it true?
That's what it says in the books, though I don't see how a shadow of something can remain with the original is gone...
I would assume that has something to do with the "copy" aspect of the Shadow Weave itself. Even if the original were to be destroyed, or somehow removed... the copy (or Shadow) of the Weave would remain. It would of course, still be tied to Shar.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 May 2005 : 05:49:47
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Greetings, I heard that Mystra is somehow interwined with the Weave, so if she dies, the Weave will collapse. But one question bothers me, will Ao permit the Weave to collapse? From what I think, Ao would want a balance of powers of good and bad.
It's already happened once -- when Karsus cast his Ultimate Mistake spell, stealing Mystryl's power, magic stopped working all over Toril. She reincarnated herself as Mystra, and kickstarted magic again.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Also, if the Weave collapses, all magic save Shadow Magic remains, is it true?
That's what it says in the books, though I don't see how a shadow of something can remain with the original is gone... |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 14 May 2005 : 03:06:10
Greetings, I heard that Mystra is somehow interwined with the Weave, so if she dies, the Weave will collapse. But one question bothers me, will Ao permit the Weave to collapse? From what I think, Ao would want a balance of powers of good and bad.
Also, if the Weave collapses, all magic save Shadow Magic remains, is it true? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 May 2005 : 14:18:33
quote:
Originally posted by Adarin
So it appears the Shadow Weave is independent of the Weave, is it true?
I suppose it could be interpreted as such... to a degree.
Magic of Faerun states that the Shadow Weave occupies the spaces *between* the strands that compose the Weave across Faerun. As is, the Shadow Weave is a distorted copy of the Weave itself.
It is also said that should Mystra ever again perish and the Weave collapse, the Shadow Weave would remain. This would seem to indicate a degree of independence from the Weave itself.
|
| Adarin |
Posted - 12 May 2005 : 12:34:36
So it appears the Shadow Weave is independent of the Weave, is it true? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 20:36:29
I wish they would make up thier minds about this, of course newest source over writes older in some convoluted way.
Core Rules, Official rules suppliments, with novels somewhere in between sometimes trumping last rules descriptions of Realms. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 20:18:43
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
From Magic of Faerûn
Shar studied the weave and used her own energy in remote parts of the world to experiment on it, eventually coming to understand how it worked and duplicating its effect with her own subtle an dark creation
This what you were thinking of Wooly?
Yup, that was it.  |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 19:29:59
quote:
From Magic of Faerûn
Shar studied the weave and used her own energy in remote parts of the world to experiment on it, eventually coming to understand how it worked and duplicating its effect with her own subtle an dark creation
This what you were thinking of Wooly? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 17:51:04
If I remember correctly, either the FRCS or Magic of Faerûn states that Shar experimented for a long time before creating the Shadow Weave.
I'm at work right now (and my books aren't), so I'll have to check that when I get home. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 16:53:09
quote:
Originally posted by Adarin
Hello to all. I had been wondering about this for a long time, how did the shadow weave truly originated, can anyone enlighten me?
They haven't gone into detail, however, my theory is it was created at the same time. The Shadow Weave, is exactly what it's called, a SHADOW of the Weave. The Shadow Weave functions where the Weave doesn't because, well a shadow can exist on many degrees (and angles of light.) |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 16:48:01
quote:
Originally posted by Adarin
Hello to all. I had been wondering about this for a long time, how did the shadow weave truly originated, can anyone enlighten me?
Can not find a direct quote, however the Weave and Shadow Weave appear to have been created at the same time. This believed to be a resule of a battle between Selune and Shar that resulted in the creation of Mystryl. |
| Adarin |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 14:44:17
Hello to all. I had been wondering about this for a long time, how did the shadow weave truly originated, can anyone enlighten me? |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 08 May 2005 : 02:41:26
Wel for the first question posted by Carion Hunter:
1) The mythal should be able to permit the use of shadow magic and presence of shades but whether this is true, I am not sure unless there is a trial run with a volunteer shade willing to do that.
2) The Myth Drannor mythal in its weakened state still could accomodate about 40 or so phaerimm. But a fully functional mythal should be able to support about at least more than 40. Though whether the presence of phaerimm inside a fully functional mythal will have any negative effects on the mythal...but goven the phaerimm feed on magic, I think any negative effects on the mythal would have to be proven by time itself. |
| Carion Hunter |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 05:54:03
Greetings, a few questions here.
1) Can the current mythal accomodate the use of shadow magic and presence of shades?
2) How many phaerimm can the mythal accomodate if the phaerimm enters the new Evereskan Mythal? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 17:09:25
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Greetings to everyone, well I would like to raise a few questions that I had been pondering about for sometime.:
1) The shadow weave nature is opposite to that of the Weave nature, I mean like positive and negative. So now the mythal of Evereska is a combination of both weaves powers, how is it that the mythal is not weakened or destroyed? As the shadow weave and the weave are opposite of each other.
2) How did the elven mythal of Evereska came to possess the shadow weave too, is it because of the aftereffects of the shadowshell?
3) Is the current elven mythal of Evereska comparatively superior to that of the Myth Drannor Mythal?(I mean the mythal of the city of song when the city is at the peak of its glory)
4) How will the mythal that is now combined with the power of the shadow weave affect the citizens and denizens and the land in the city and near the city?
Well, my thanks to any forum member for answering the four questions I raised.
1) Good question. It just isn't. :)
2) The main elven npc in the Return of the Archwizards novels helped repair the Mythal when the center caster died and since that main NPC was a shadow weave user, his magic blended the Mythal.
3) I think that Myth Drannor's is a wizardy mythal while Evereska's is a true mythal and thus Evereska's is stronger.
4) No idea. :) |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 05 May 2005 : 13:03:00
Greetings to everyone, well I would like to raise a few questions that I had been pondering about for sometime.:
1) The shadow weave nature is opposite to that of the Weave nature, I mean like positive and negative. So now the mythal of Evereska is a combination of both weaves powers, how is it that the mythal is not weakened or destroyed? As the shadow weave and the weave are opposite of each other.
2) How did the elven mythal of Evereska came to possess the shadow weave too, is it because of the aftereffects of the shadowshell?
3) Is the current elven mythal of Evereska comparatively superior to that of the Myth Drannor Mythal?(I mean the mythal of the city of song when the city is at the peak of its glory)
4) How will the mythal that is now combined with the power of the shadow weave affect the citizens and denizens and the land in the city and near the city?
Well, my thanks to any forum member for answering the four questions I raised.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 03 May 2005 : 14:44:46
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Greetings, everyone. Well here is some food for thought, I wonder what happens if the Shadow Weave were to be united with the Weave, a catastrophe to all Realms? Annihilation of Mystra and Shar?(as I think they are interwined with their own Weave.) or loss of magic to all Realms or rather cause a change in balance of powers and affect life in all the Realms?
Evereska's Mythal is a combination of the two Weaves now and it didn't cause any problems. :) |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 03 May 2005 : 11:52:46
Greetings, everyone. Well here is some food for thought, I wonder what happens if the Shadow Weave were to be united with the Weave, a catastrophe to all Realms? Annihilation of Mystra and Shar?(as I think they are interwined with their own Weave.) or loss of magic to all Realms or rather cause a change in balance of powers and affect life in all the Realms?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 23:03:34
quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Shade and Selûnarra snuck out. The reborn Mystra caught three of the falling cities. That's five cities we know of that survived the Fall.
I'm rather fond of the idea that another one of the cities was over one of the unknown continents, and the survivors built a new civilization there. 'Tis an idea I came up with, and is utterly non-canon.
Very cool idea, Wooly. Have you detailed this civilization?
Nope, not at all. It's a random thought that went wandering thru my head one day. At the moment, it's just in the "nifty ideas" file. I do not at this time have any specific plans to develop it.
I've mentioned this idea before, and I know that other people have liked it and said they were going to run with it. Feel free to do the same. |
| Mareka |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 21:54:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Shade and Selûnarra snuck out. The reborn Mystra caught three of the falling cities. That's five cities we know of that survived the Fall.
I'm rather fond of the idea that another one of the cities was over one of the unknown continents, and the survivors built a new civilization there. 'Tis an idea I came up with, and is utterly non-canon.
Very cool idea, Wooly. Have you detailed this civilization? |
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