| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 29 Oct 2002 : 14:58:48
For those who have a copy of the 3e Faiths and Pantheons product, I would invite them to read the entry of Lathander. It seems that the Morning Lord is preparing for another Dawn Cataclysm.
The original Dawn Cataclysm happened before the fall of Myth Drannor. Lathander tried to reshape the pantheon once before into his own image and ideals, however he failed. That failure, the Dawn Cataclysm is seen as a herald of Myth Drannor's fall, and had some other side effects.
For those that have already read the entry, any ideas on what this might get the world into? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 03 Jul 2005 : 16:22:04
Faiths & Avatars says that Amaunator died of neglect about a millenium after the fall of Netheril. That would be circa 660 DR, give or take. How much to give or take is debateable. An error rate of half a century would put it roughly 600-700 DR.
Jergal had the dusk portfolio and he gave it to Myrkul. He may have done so out of a fear of dying. Or out of a sense of duty to his other portfolios. He might have figured he needed to break out of the cycle so that he could live on and shepherd the universe tidily along the path toward the end of all things.
Whatever Jergal's reasons for doing so, Myrkul was tricked in a way. Myrkul took over the portfolio of dusk long enough to earn the death that was fated for Jergal.
But the transition of the dusk portfolio from Jergal to Myrkul does not represent a "setting" and "rising" of the dusk aspect, it should be seen as a continuous chain. Myrkul was just taking over the tail end of this particular stage in the cycle.
Now, Lathander being worshipped in 3rd century Athalantar, before Amaunator died, could have a number of explanations.
1) Lathander was the alias of Amaunator at that time, and the Lathander they were worshipping was Amaunator up until his death at which time the Lathander they worshipped was the newborn Lathander.
2) Lathander may have been the sun god of the Talfiric pantheon of the Western Heartlands, and since the Faerűnian pantheon was not unified at that time, his existence did not overlap Amaunator's as they had different spheres of influence and thus could have similar portfolios. Perhaps the unification of the Talfiric and Netherese pantheons together into the greater Faerűnian pantheon was what put the nail in the coffin of Amaunator.
3) Eric L. Boyd's idea that godly events happen outside of time and have no exact correlation to mortal time could mean that Amaunator had died with respect to Athalantar, and that Lathander had risen there, while Amaunator had not yet "set" and Lathander had yet to "rise" in other parts of Faerűn.
You know there is already a metaphorical precedent for different geographic areas to see the sun differently depending on location, and that is the phenomenon of time zones. For instance England is 6 hours ahead of where I am in Texas, so it can be noon here at the same time it is dusk over there.
While I am not proposing a direct mapping of time zones to the Lathander/Amaunator question, it works as a metaphor. It can still be true that Amaunator had to die before Lathander could arise, but the moment of that transition could be different(perhaps by as much as centuries apart) for different populations of people depending on their perspective on the sun.
|
| ode904 |
Posted - 01 Jul 2005 : 22:56:03
I have it and i have to check it myself... |
| Ty |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 01:34:57
Good points on the dates. Perhaps we have to look for some as yet unnamed deity being around in those six centuries between Amaunator and Lathander. Clearly Myrkul then doesn't work quite as neatly in this theory.   |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 23:17:24
quote:
Originally posted by Ty
Mrykul's inclusion into that may be faults in my own recollection of the theory Wooly.  I have a tendency to mash things together. I premise his inclusion on his original portfolio inclusion of dusk and that's what I recall the original theory espousing. I of course, could be wrong and to be honest, I wish I knew for the life of me where I thought I read that. 
As for Amaunator and Lathander not being around at the same time, maybe this will help a bit.
Start: Morning alone.
Step 1: Morning fades to rising Noon/Afternoon.
Step 2. Noon/Afternoon alone.
Step 3: Noon/Afternoon fades to rising Dusk.
Step 4: Dusk Alone.
Step 5: Dusk fades to rising Morning.
Step 6: Morning alone (cycle repeats).
Now, at the time of Netheril, the earliest dating I've found for a god holding the portfolio related to the cycles of the sun, we have Amaunator for certain. Jergal may or may not have had dusk. Thus, at the time of Netheril, we at least had the presence of Step 2. If Jergal had dusk as a portfolio, then we're at Step 3.
Then we move on to Netheril falling, and Amaunator suffering an abrupt drop in worship and eventually, he dies from lack of worship. No set time is given for that death. However, we also have Myrkul rising I believe somewhere between 200 DR and 700 DR. I am extrapolating this from someone else's analysis of the rise of Bane as a power. I assume that Myrkul, as one of the trio, followed a similar "arc" in his rise to divinity if you would.
Now, assuming Amaunator lingers for a time, say three or four hundred years before ultimately kicking the bucket, we have, probably, an overlap of time where Amaunator is pathetically weak and Myrkul is just starting to ascend. Then, we hit Step 4. This is a weak spot in my analysis since I have no clue as to when Lathander ascended to divinity but we find no real mention of him in the history of Netheril or other cultures.
I am left to assume that he must have arisen a short time after Amaunator's ultimate demise, and shortly after Myrkul achieved his divinity. This completes Step 5. Over time, Myrkul waxes and then wanes and he dies during the Time of Troubles. Worshippers carry on for a few decades but for all intents and purposes, he is dead, while Lathander waxes. This moves us to Step 6. Lathander is the only god holding the portfolio related to the cycles of the sun, and is the current status of things.
Now, what I wonder is if the Second Dawn Cataclysm hinted at in Faiths and Pantheons will render Step 1 or 2 "in play". I personally think this may be hinted at (or at least the stage set for it) after reading information on the Sunmasters in Lost Empires of Faerun. Clearly we're at Step 6. Are the Sunmasters the start of Step 1 and the Second Dawn Cataclysm building up will yield a full demise of Lathander and the ascendancy of a god with the noon/afternoon aspect under Step 2? That's my only postulation really.
This is of course, my musings on it. Under the stages listed above, Amanautor and Lathander can only be simultaneously "alive" during Step 1. From the looks of past cycles, the stages where two gods are alive seem much longer than the stages where only one aspect of the cycle of the sun is alive. It also makes sense if you go back to the Pyramid example. Seeing only one face of the pyramid as it rotates has a negligble time period in comparison to when you can see two sides.
At the time of Amaunator in Netheril, you couldn't have had Lathander and Amaunator alive at the same time. The aspect of Morning's time had long passed. Prior to the recorded history of Netheril, it certainly was possible, but we just don't have the historical information from that period laid out quite as well for us to accurately state anything about it. To any extent, it's an interesting theory, but again, its just a theory until the game designers make it so.  
I don't think enough time passed for there to have anyone between Amaunator and Lathander. We know Amaunator was around until at least -339 DR, and we know that Lathander was worshipped in Athalantar by 3rd Century DR -- only 5 or 6 centuries later. Further, Myrkul wasn't worshipped in Netheril, because he and his buds had not yet gained their portfolios from Jergal. So Myrkul would have had to have risen somewhere after the Fall, as well. This means that he and Lathander were both rising at the same time, or within a few centuries of each other -- which makes it difficult for Myrkul to have been part of that cycle. |
| Ty |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 14:55:33
Mrykul's inclusion into that may be faults in my own recollection of the theory Wooly. I have a tendency to mash things together. I premise his inclusion on his original portfolio inclusion of dusk and that's what I recall the original theory espousing. I of course, could be wrong and to be honest, I wish I knew for the life of me where I thought I read that.
As for Amaunator and Lathander not being around at the same time, maybe this will help a bit.
Start: Morning alone.
Step 1: Morning fades to rising Noon/Afternoon.
Step 2. Noon/Afternoon alone.
Step 3: Noon/Afternoon fades to rising Dusk.
Step 4: Dusk Alone.
Step 5: Dusk fades to rising Morning.
Step 6: Morning alone (cycle repeats).
Now, at the time of Netheril, the earliest dating I've found for a god holding the portfolio related to the cycles of the sun, we have Amaunator for certain. Jergal may or may not have had dusk. Thus, at the time of Netheril, we at least had the presence of Step 2. If Jergal had dusk as a portfolio, then we're at Step 3.
Then we move on to Netheril falling, and Amaunator suffering an abrupt drop in worship and eventually, he dies from lack of worship. No set time is given for that death. However, we also have Myrkul rising I believe somewhere between 200 DR and 700 DR. I am extrapolating this from someone else's analysis of the rise of Bane as a power. I assume that Myrkul, as one of the trio, followed a similar "arc" in his rise to divinity if you would.
Now, assuming Amaunator lingers for a time, say three or four hundred years before ultimately kicking the bucket, we have, probably, an overlap of time where Amaunator is pathetically weak and Myrkul is just starting to ascend. Then, we hit Step 4. This is a weak spot in my analysis since I have no clue as to when Lathander ascended to divinity but we find no real mention of him in the history of Netheril or other cultures.
I am left to assume that he must have arisen a short time after Amaunator's ultimate demise, and shortly after Myrkul achieved his divinity. This completes Step 5. Over time, Myrkul waxes and then wanes and he dies during the Time of Troubles. Worshippers carry on for a few decades but for all intents and purposes, he is dead, while Lathander waxes. This moves us to Step 6. Lathander is the only god holding the portfolio related to the cycles of the sun, and is the current status of things.
Now, what I wonder is if the Second Dawn Cataclysm hinted at in Faiths and Pantheons will render Step 1 or 2 "in play". I personally think this may be hinted at (or at least the stage set for it) after reading information on the Sunmasters in Lost Empires of Faerun. Clearly we're at Step 6. Are the Sunmasters the start of Step 1 and the Second Dawn Cataclysm building up will yield a full demise of Lathander and the ascendancy of a god with the noon/afternoon aspect under Step 2? That's my only postulation really.
This is of course, my musings on it. Under the stages listed above, Amanautor and Lathander can only be simultaneously "alive" during Step 1. From the looks of past cycles, the stages where two gods are alive seem much longer than the stages where only one aspect of the cycle of the sun is alive. It also makes sense if you go back to the Pyramid example. Seeing only one face of the pyramid as it rotates has a negligble time period in comparison to when you can see two sides.
At the time of Amaunator in Netheril, you couldn't have had Lathander and Amaunator alive at the same time. The aspect of Morning's time had long passed. Prior to the recorded history of Netheril, it certainly was possible, but we just don't have the historical information from that period laid out quite as well for us to accurately state anything about it. To any extent, it's an interesting theory, but again, its just a theory until the game designers make it so. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 03:47:09
quote:
Originally posted by Ty
I'm not fond of Myrkul's inclusion into the theory, but it does work from a purely mechanical perspective. Of course, we'll never know about the origin of Myrkul's ascendancy to divinity or even the timing of his acquisition of the portfolio of dusk. Of course, the more I think about it now, it could have been Jergal as the original holder of dusk (without a corresponding acknowledgement in the Netheril boxed set), but again, that's speculation. Jergal alone, with all his portfolio's was a much stronger deity than any individual god such as Bane, Bhaal, or Myrkul. Perhaps his passing off of certain portfolio's served as the catalyst for the resurgence of the god of Morning.
I'm not so sure I'd use the term "morph" though. I view it more as a matter of waxing and waning from birth to death. You can then have two present with one slowly dying (or passing to obscurity) and the other slowly gaining strength. If you examine the "gap period" between Amaunator and Lathander, you'll probably find it to be a very short gap. Similarly, if you narrow down the period of Amaunator's death, I'm laying odds that Lathander arose shortly thereafter.
Much to ponder and I certainly don't have the answers. I merely question whether a hypothesis advanced regarding the waxing/waning of the sun god is tied to the activities of Lathander moving forward in time. Questions, questions...
The thing is, I've not before seen Myrkul listed in that trio. And Amaunator and Lathander did not exist at the same time. So if noon and dawn weren't around at the same time, why would dusk and dawn be around at the same time (at least, until dusk lost his godhood)? |
| Ty |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 02:48:35
I'm not fond of Myrkul's inclusion into the theory, but it does work from a purely mechanical perspective. Of course, we'll never know about the origin of Myrkul's ascendancy to divinity or even the timing of his acquisition of the portfolio of dusk. Of course, the more I think about it now, it could have been Jergal as the original holder of dusk (without a corresponding acknowledgement in the Netheril boxed set), but again, that's speculation. Jergal alone, with all his portfolio's was a much stronger deity than any individual god such as Bane, Bhaal, or Myrkul. Perhaps his passing off of certain portfolio's served as the catalyst for the resurgence of the god of Morning.
I'm not so sure I'd use the term "morph" though. I view it more as a matter of waxing and waning from birth to death. You can then have two present with one slowly dying (or passing to obscurity) and the other slowly gaining strength. If you examine the "gap period" between Amaunator and Lathander, you'll probably find it to be a very short gap. Similarly, if you narrow down the period of Amaunator's death, I'm laying odds that Lathander arose shortly thereafter.
Much to ponder and I certainly don't have the answers. I merely question whether a hypothesis advanced regarding the waxing/waning of the sun god is tied to the activities of Lathander moving forward in time. Questions, questions... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 01:11:16
quote:
Originally posted by Ty
Well... no. And yes. Originally, his portfolio did include dusk.
As I recall Eric Boyd looked at it (I think it was him at least ) there are three aspects to the "sun god" of the Realms. One is morning, the second is noon/afternoon and the third is of course dusk/night. I recall the image of a three sided pyramid (or a four sided dice) sitting on a rotating plate for instance. If you looked directly forward, and an angle perpendicular to the center of the pyramid, as the plate spun you would alternatively see one or two of the faces of the pyramid, but never all three.
Thus, if you place the phases of the sun onto the pyramid, you have morning followed by afternoon followed by dusk, followed by morning, afternoon, dusk, morning, afternoon, dusk, ad infinitum. It was then explained (this I recall was a hypothesis) that you could have a god of the dusk and a god of the morning at the same time (Myrkul and Lathander), but eventually dusk would fade to completely morning (Lathander). As the plate spins, you see two faces of the pyramid again, morning and afternoon (Lathander and Amaunator). Let it spin more and you'll have just afternoon (Amaunator). Keep going and we have afternoon and dusk (Amaunator and Myrkul).
What's ironic is that this theory of the ascendancy of the god of the sun holds true according to the realms history. Dusk wasn't part of Jergal's original portfolio during the time of Amaunator (the first of the three gods we know of relating to this theory). Amaunator is the only sun god. Over time, Myrkul arises as Amaunator dies. Someone else did the timeline here and I *think* it worked out roughly. Then, we have Myrkul and Lathander coming 'round. Now, we only have Lathander, with a hint of the return of Amaunator.
Again, not my theory, but the one postulated by certain Realms authors as I understand it. Which we all know of course could be patently absurd. 
My problem with the idea of Myrkul being part of that cycle: Two facets being active at once. If one god slowly morphs into another, then you're not going to have two aspects active at once. Further, Lathander is still referred to as being young, and yet Myrkul was around for a while. Lastly, Myrkul could have grabbed dusk somewhere along the way.
I think it more likely that the third aspect is some forgotten deity. |
| Ty |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 23:40:27
Well... no. And yes. Originally, his portfolio did include dusk.
As I recall Eric Boyd looked at it (I think it was him at least ) there are three aspects to the "sun god" of the Realms. One is morning, the second is noon/afternoon and the third is of course dusk/night. I recall the image of a three sided pyramid (or a four sided dice) sitting on a rotating plate for instance. If you looked directly forward, and an angle perpendicular to the center of the pyramid, as the plate spun you would alternatively see one or two of the faces of the pyramid, but never all three.
Thus, if you place the phases of the sun onto the pyramid, you have morning followed by afternoon followed by dusk, followed by morning, afternoon, dusk, morning, afternoon, dusk, ad infinitum. It was then explained (this I recall was a hypothesis) that you could have a god of the dusk and a god of the morning at the same time (Myrkul and Lathander), but eventually dusk would fade to completely morning (Lathander). As the plate spins, you see two faces of the pyramid again, morning and afternoon (Lathander and Amaunator). Let it spin more and you'll have just afternoon (Amaunator). Keep going and we have afternoon and dusk (Amaunator and Myrkul).
What's ironic is that this theory of the ascendancy of the god of the sun holds true according to the realms history. Dusk wasn't part of Jergal's original portfolio during the time of Amaunator (the first of the three gods we know of relating to this theory). Amaunator is the only sun god. Over time, Myrkul arises as Amaunator dies. Someone else did the timeline here and I *think* it worked out roughly. Then, we have Myrkul and Lathander coming 'round. Now, we only have Lathander, with a hint of the return of Amaunator.
Again, not my theory, but the one postulated by certain Realms authors as I understand it. Which we all know of course could be patently absurd.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 23:08:00
quote:
Originally posted by Ty
I personally wonder how the tri-partite Lathander/Amaunator/Myrkul thing may play into this. 
Huh? Are you saying that Myrkul is the third incarnation of Amaunator and Lathander? That can't be right...  |
| Ty |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 22:26:46
I personally wonder how the tri-partite Lathander/Amaunator/Myrkul thing may play into this. |
| Manix |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 07:09:48
True, but I would like to see a change that would be memorable. Mabey not having all the gods end up in mortal form, but I see the Second Dawn as having some huge ramifications for the realms. I don't see this as being something that will go unnoticed by the general populace. I am just trying to figure out what will happen, and any way that it would affect the characters, or that I can throw them into the mix.
Manix
Out |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 04:18:53
Well, right now you are taking a pretty big step in changing the rules that were set into Forgotten Realms. It's not just as simply having all gods take mortal forms like during the Times of Trouble. |
| Manix |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 02:31:52
I know that gods will die, places on Faerun will forever be changed, but the guys that I gm for have been playing since the early 90's and I think it is time for them to change the face of the realms, then again they might decide to do nothing.
Manix
Out |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 13 Mar 2005 : 18:49:53
There's also the problem of the Weave. We all remember last time what happened when the Goddess of Magic herself was trapped in a physical form... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Mar 2005 : 08:04:01
quote:
Originally posted by Manix
The Gods will basically be brought back into the realms in a physical form (aka no avatars).
So these will be the actual gods themselves?
You do realise that should any of them die, they will be completely destroyed since they no longer have access to their planar domains. They'll also be weaker than they would be in their homeplane, and each of their deaths are likely to be more explosive (and expansive) than the deaths of the avatars during the Time of Troubles.
|
| Manix |
Posted - 13 Mar 2005 : 05:01:54
I know this is an old topic but with the release of LEoF I am thinking starting Lathander's Second Dawn. In my game I am playing a follower of At'ar (Bedine belief). I will soon run them through the rebirth of Selune's Nethrese city. This will be the wake up call for Lathander and he will start his second dawn. I am planning on having this start the next Gods War. The Gods will basically be brought back into the realms in a physical form (aka no avatars). They will have thier levels but not thier 20 levels in outsider. So they will be epic yet mortal. Some gods will probably die, and some may come back to life. In the end I might have the original Nethrese god of the sun assume his own thrown.
Any ideas to help me with this plot would help.
Manix
Out |
| Nephilim |
Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 13:23:11
My theory on godhood also provides an explanation for the recent rise in the numbers of Chosen across the realms. The gods are simply realising what Mystra has know all along. By imparting a sliver of their divine essence to a mortal, a god gains a pseudo-avatar that still has complete free-will!
The Chosen can do whatever he likes, even acts against his own alignment (which a god could never do) if necessary, so long as he beleives his actions are in the best interests of the deity. If the god doesn't like what the Chosen is doing he can simply revoke the Chosen status. |
| Nephilim |
Posted - 23 Oct 2004 : 12:44:20
I'd like to come back to a point made earlier that I think got confused by an issue in semantics.
quote:
Originally posted by Acaus Bellum
I want to point out that Lathander has no ambition. The reason he thinks he is perfect is because he is a god and the god of self perfection. The reason he thinks the pantheon needs renewed is because he is the god of renewal and he wants to do it in his image because he as the god of perfection thinks he is perfect. He is just living up to his portfolio. As to the Mystra-Shar conflict the result should be that Mystra once again becomes god of all magic and the Weave becomes whole again and Mystra becomes true neutral(no insanity). The reason the present and previous Mystra were both losing themselves is because the were not living up to they're portfolios.
I think if we substitue the word 'choice' for 'ambition' it makes more sense. A god is not a god because he/she believes in something. A god is the embodiment of the concepts covered by its portfolio. Mystra doesn't just believe in magic, she is magic. Likewise Lathander is Self-Perfection, Lathander is Renewal. A god is as much compelled by his portfolio as he is restricted by it, choice (or ambition) have little to do with this, a god simply behaves according to his/her nature. Only mortals truly have free-will, as a fallen celestial, i know this to be true. 
The effect of all this is that because Lathander *knows* his plan was perfect and because he *knows* renewal is necessary, he is compelled by his very nature to try again.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Apr 2004 : 05:25:45
From what I've read, the Dawn Cataclysm was originally something that someone just slapped onto a timeline -- it wasn't originally in any Realmslore. But it caught people's attention, so they (TSR/WotC) added a bit more detail to it, and then decided they weren't gonna go any further with it. |
| VEDSICA |
Posted - 08 Apr 2004 : 04:28:46
I would like to see a novel about the Dawn Cataclysm,and add it to the Avatar Series with the Return of Bane. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 20:17:06
quote:
Originally posted by Acaus Bellum
As I was reading through 2e Faiths and Avatars something struke me as odd. Reference pg 44 Rotten Luck it states, "Before the Dawn Cataclysm there was but one goddess of Luck, Tyche. Also in Making of a Mage Elminster says a pray to Tyche pg 36. Somewhere I have the birth year of Elminster but I can't find it but as a general reference FRCS lists Elminster entering Cormanthor in 241 DR at that time he couldn't have been more than a hundred plz correct me if I'm wrong. Yet, I find no mention of the Dawn Cataclysm in the timeline but I always assumed it was much ealier in Faeruian History.
Page 264 of the FRCS speaks of the Dawn Cataclysm causing schisms in the church of Tyche, which happened in 8th century DR. So that's any time from 700 to 799 DR.
But, it's said in other sources that the Dawn Cataclysm presaged the fall of Myth Drannor, which happened in 714 DR. If that is true, then the Dawn Cataclysm had to have happened before then, so it was any time between 700 DR and 714 DR. You could even back that up a bit further, since the attacks that lead to Myth Drannor's fall began in 712 DR... |
| ClericOfLathandar |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 19:27:02
ok as you can tell by the name I am a little bit towards one side on this issue. I would like to see LAthander succedd in his endever, but we all know that Aeo will never let that happen. Evil being removed would be quite nice, but once again Aeo will NEVER let good take over as he likes the balance between them. Maybe some day I can be one of his high clerics but for now who cares. It's just fun being an undead hunter. |
| Cyric |
Posted - 13 Jan 2004 : 16:28:16
Wel i for one think he(latander) is up to no god and i have always tought that Oghma was on the good side of the balance. |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 04 Jan 2004 : 02:17:49
Well a reason for placeing silence on such things usually has to do with the phrase: "Not my department." (this phrase is notorious among those of Middle and lower management ). Personally Good (and reasons for doing good) is dangerous as Evil if done for such reasons.
Now I know Alaundo my wack me with his Staff of Irritate moderator for travelling to another Plane but by borrowing several theories of Planewalkers, it seems that (as we all know) good and evil cannot exist without one another. Yet the deities have a hard time seeing this (since to have totally one or the other, signifies the end of the Great Conflict, and thus no real need to continue existence.. this would be bad). A good theory of this could be seen in a place/demiplane called Serra's Realm. This Demiplane was created by a powerful mage of sorts but she wanted to craft a utopian world, and so it was... sort of... The place could be considered Lawful Good by D&D reckoning, however, a off balence occured when a non-Lawful Non-Good (by birth/creation rather than choice) was introduced. Like a Grand experiment the introduction of the opposite/however slight sped up the degradation... no... corrosion of the entire realms. A realm of Absolute purity can be sustained but only by constant effort of the creator.
Side note:This could be said the same for the vice versa... yet evil seems to be able to stand alone more so than good...
This is Even true with Deities and their realms of power. What ever happened to Amunator's Hold of Eternal Light (or what was it called?), How about Xvim's Home? While many of the followers converted, what about those that remained true to their deity?.
this Could explain why the Deities are so uppity about the Balance *Slight spoiler*(as in the trial of Cyric the Mad, Yet many were ready to condemn Midnight and Kelemvor as well, neglecting duties or pride, arrogance, and fear? You tell me)
More often than Not Neutrality is usually clumped in with good or evil as it tends to bounce around alot... Even Helm. He is the God of Protectors, Protecting the innocent and weak -this good. most of the Time of Troubles ....err... trouble laid at his feet (wild magic from mystra Destruct. Mishanlding of Mazteca... I still have no idea what happened there so if other sages could enlighten me thanx) usually seen as bad....
Side note: If this Murdane (as I have only heard the name mentioned a few times) was slain, and the lover of Helm (a god known for his immobile attitude and need to do his duty... ?which may infringe on Torm...) NO WONDER he's seen as so impassive if not outright cruel...Think about it (the guys even more so). He has not had a lover since the Dawn Cataclysm!!! I say give helm a Break.... I feel for the guy... really...
Granted to Dragon Cultist, for the pointings out he has given us (for which he has my thanks) WHile the the entire Kit and Kaboodle is not what he's gunning for, most would agree that anything he bases upon from this failed venture, while not totally trying to redo it, is dangerous and more than likely will result in the same misfortune. After, even gods while some times make the same old mistakes... Lathander (being to god of renewal, Creativity and new things) will most likely make all new ones ...
In conclusion.... Hurm.... I really don't know what I was going to say, can't remember what it was that I was going to say... Or even aware that there was something I was trying to say... there is a method to my maddness... and lecture... But I'll be da...rned... if I can remember what it was... |
| Dragon Cultist |
Posted - 03 Jan 2004 : 17:50:47
While normally I rub my hands in glee when the shortcomings of the Dawnlord and his holy allies are being aired for all to discuss , I feel that as a scholar, I must chime in.
Might I respectfully point out that the text in Faiths & Pantheons *doesn’t* actually hint that Lathander is, or might be, working towards a Second Dawn Cataclysm?
Bear with me as I quote F&P:
“Helm harbors ill feelings towards the Morninglord that date back to the Dawn Cataclysm, when Lathander indirectly caused the destruction of Helm’s lover Murdane, a lesser deity of reason and pragmatism. No doubt the Vigilant One would be chagrined to learn that Lathander has, since the Time of Troubles, been working on some of the incantations and machinations that brought about that catastrophe so long ago…”
Notice that there is mention of Lathander working on *some* of the incantations etc. This has been hastily concluded to mean that Lathander is outright gunning to repeat his past actions. But one can just as easily conclude that the Morninglord is working up something new (he is the patron deity of new ventures, after all) and that it is merely elements of those “incantations and machinations” that the god wants to use again.
Elements, mind you. Not the whole kit and kaboodle. It seems to me that Lathander could be working on a new strategy, and not necessarily involving reshaping the pantheon. At least not in the same way that he once tried.
Further debunking the “Lathander is hell-bent for Dawn Cataclysm II” theory, to me, is the mention in Faiths & Pantheons that:
“Oghma, Chauntea, and Lliira know of Lathander’s plans, but so far, each has remained silent.”
Now why would three very powerful deities of neutral and good alignmens respectively, remain silent on Lathander’s plans? If Lathander had really turned Bush jr. on us, so to speak, then why would other, perhaps wiser (or in any case, less naieve) gods be “covering for him?” That would be out-of-character, I think. Sure, even good gods have agendas. Yet I find it hard to believe that not just Lathander, but several good / neutral deities would be actively steering a course that seems sure to bring a repeat of an earlier catastrophe?
On the other side of the issue, honesty compels me to add this quote, again from F&P:
“[…] Many progressive deities believe that direct action must be taken to destroy evil once and for all, and that no unintended consequences of Lathander’s plans could be as threatening to the world as simply standing by and doing nothing.”
Food for thought- for all alignments.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Dec 2003 : 00:30:40
nicostratus, I actually wrote up a nice little 'report' on another forum answering that exact question. Let me find that thread and post it here. It's a better idea than me just summarising some of the points discussed in that post.
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| Cyric |
Posted - 06 Dec 2003 : 22:36:11
it would never happen so it dosent realley matter and it could never happen becos it would be falsh all humans are not god and so. So if all the gods where god then some would die in lack of whorship and of course Ao would not allowe it and the world of faurun could never be a place of perfect peace and love and all that stuff.
And yes since you are new just saying Cyric is the way to go |
| nicostratus |
Posted - 06 Dec 2003 : 02:05:11
Now, I am curious as to your specific thoughts on what the Dawn Cataclysm would actually do, drastic or not, i want your opinons. Should i start a new post for that, or would that continue here?
-Nicostratus |
| nicostratus |
Posted - 06 Dec 2003 : 02:02:16
Well, the importance of dating the Dawn Cataclysm, is that some people have a 'divine interaction' campaign setting, and someone may want to include the Second Dawn, and would like sagely input. That being said, according to 2nd edition or mabye it was 3rd edtion faiths and pantheons..in either case, under besheba's entry (i think it was her) it said that during the Dawn Cataclysm tychewas fed up with Lathander and so kissed him with mis fortune (thus the failing of the first Dawn) but it wasn't lathander's cataclysm that split her. Later tyche tried to pick a flower, couldn't so she cursed it, then plucked it form the ground and put it in her hair, the flower was actually Moander, and it ate away at her with out her knowing. When she met up with Lathander, Selune, and another diety (don't remember whom) Selune seeing tyches corruption struck her, thus splitting her, adn from the husk of tyche tymora and besheba were born...Besheba, after her fight with tymora, then stomed off saying that tymora, lathander, selune, and the other were not worth her time. Thus it wasn't lathander that caused tyche to split, but it was Moander and Selune.
-Nicostratus |
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