| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shades |
Posted - 15 Oct 2002 : 19:41:15
I know your probably thinking not another Zhentarim post on this forum but...Can anyone tell me which books have a detailed description of the battle between Fzoul and Manshoon. Also I would like to know if you also know the book which the Manshoon war's are in. Thank you for your time. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Xysma |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 14:33:24
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
Do we know why that clone was a vampire in the first place?
Yup. A vampire that was already living dwelling in Westgate found the clone and decided to make a vampire out of it.
Thanks Wooly. By the way, in the new Dragon (335) Ed talks about Manshoon, and describes him as Ed intended him, rather than the watered-down version we've seen so often due to the "Zhentarim as keystone cops" problem that Ed had alluded to in the past. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 23:20:56
So I decided to ask Steven about the separate entries for Ches 6...
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hey again, Steven! We've been discussing Manshoon in this thread, and I decided to ask about something I noted there.
In Cloak & Dagger, the timeline lists the vampire clone waking up before it lists the rest of the clones waking up. 'Tis on page 13, under the month of Ches. There's two entries for Ches 6. The first one is the waking of the vampire clone. The second entry for Ches 6 describes the beginning of the Manshoon Wars.
Now, as I pointed out in that other thread, this could be meaningless. But it also could mean that something caused the vampire to become active before the stasis clone spell was triggered...
So, am I on to something here, or am I reading too much into it?
"Perhaps," said Khelben. "Sit there and think on it awhile. I'll be back to retreive you before Harvestide..." 
Bear in mind that the two entries for Ches 6 COULD be simultaneous; it's just that Orthak ties into more plots than the rest of the clones, so he got singled out. Therefore, depending on how you want to read that, it's either part of the larger event or a separate event in and of itself.
The EXACT cause of the Manshoon Wars, IMO, should remain up to GMs. I've left scattered hints aplenty on at least three or four different causes. And ALL of them are more than happy to lay claim to doing so for political reasons.
So, yes, there's a clue in the Orthak lore, you're right Wooly. Precisely what the clue points to is up to all ye individual GMs to parse out and decide for yourselves. 
After all, isn't that the fun of it all?
SES
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 17:38:50
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
Do we know why that clone was a vampire in the first place?
Yup. A vampire that was already living dwelling in Westgate found the clone and decided to make a vampire out of it. |
| Xysma |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 15:17:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
That makes sense, I like your theory. Which undead clone are you referring to? I know there is a vampire clone in Westgate, but I was under the impression that he became a vampire later on, after all the clones had been activated.
The undead one I spoke of was the vampire in Westgate. He woke up around the same time as all the others, and was already a vampire at that time.
Now, here's the curious part: the timeline actually lists him waking up before it lists the rest of the clones waking up. I'm not sure if there's any significance to this fact... But on page 13 of Cloak & Dagger, under the month of Ches, there's two entries for Ches 6. The first one is the waking of the vampire clone. The second entry for Ches 6 describes the beginning of the Manshoon Wars.
It could be nothing... But it could also be read to mean that the vampire awoke first, and that his awakening was not caused by the Manshoon Wars.
If this is the case, then we have a stronger argument for the magical backlash being caused by the vampire's existence. And while that would neatly explain why the rest of the clones woke up at once, it begs a new question: why did the vampire wake up first?
Do we know why that clone was a vampire in the first place? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 05:25:11
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
That makes sense, I like your theory. Which undead clone are you referring to? I know there is a vampire clone in Westgate, but I was under the impression that he became a vampire later on, after all the clones had been activated.
The undead one I spoke of was the vampire in Westgate. He woke up around the same time as all the others, and was already a vampire at that time.
Now, here's the curious part: the timeline actually lists him waking up before it lists the rest of the clones waking up. I'm not sure if there's any significance to this fact... But on page 13 of Cloak & Dagger, under the month of Ches, there's two entries for Ches 6. The first one is the waking of the vampire clone. The second entry for Ches 6 describes the beginning of the Manshoon Wars.
It could be nothing... But it could also be read to mean that the vampire awoke first, and that his awakening was not caused by the Manshoon Wars.
If this is the case, then we have a stronger argument for the magical backlash being caused by the vampire's existence. And while that would neatly explain why the rest of the clones woke up at once, it begs a new question: why did the vampire wake up first? |
| Xysma |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 03:23:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
Could it be that with each death of a Manshoon clone, the remaining clones grow stronger? (similar to Highlander and The One) That would explain the compulsion of each clone to kill the other clones. Perhaps the intention of the original Manshoon was to ensure that the last surviving clone would be very powerful?
No, I think it's just that each clone would become, for lack of a better term, more complete.
As for the killing compulsion, my theory is that having a magically-created identical twin creates a kind of resonance between the clone and the original, or between multiple clones. This resonance somehow acts on the individuals involved, forcing them to try to kill each other to end it. It could be that it causes some sort of pain or weird tingling inside, or it could cause an extreme antipathy between the two.
The clone spell in 2E had a similar effect: if the clone and the original were both active at the same time, they would try to kill each other.
The resonance theory also explains why Manshoon clones that stay away from each other don't have to kill each other: the resonance gets stronger as they get closer, becoming unbearable. But at a great distance, it can be ignored. Ditto for getting around it by becoming something other than a living Manshoon clone: you're no longer an exact copy, ending the disturbance.
Oh, and I doubt Manshoon intended for all his clones to battle each other. He's been using the spell for years, sometimes deliberately getting killed in battle to activate a physically younger clone. This thing has never happened before, so there was no reason to expect it to. I still think that the existance of an undead clone in mix caused a magical backlash that activated all the clones.
That makes sense, I like your theory. Which undead clone are you referring to? I know there is a vampire clone in Westgate, but I was under the impression that he became a vampire later on, after all the clones had been activated. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Aug 2005 : 02:36:27
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, I think it's just that each clone would become, for lack of a better term, more complete.
As for the killing compulsion, my theory is that having a magically-created identical twin creates a kind of resonance between the clone and the original, or between multiple clones. This resonance somehow acts on the individuals involved, forcing them to try to kill each other to end it. It could be that it causes some sort of pain or weird tingling inside, or it could cause an extreme antipathy between the two.
The clone spell in 2E had a similar effect: if the clone and the original were both active at the same time, they would try to kill each other.
The resonance theory also explains why Manshoon clones that stay away from each other don't have to kill each other: the resonance gets stronger as they get closer, becoming unbearable. But at a great distance, it can be ignored. Ditto for getting around it by becoming something other than a living Manshoon clone: you're no longer an exact copy, ending the disturbance.
Oh, and I doubt Manshoon intended for all his clones to battle each other. He's been using the spell for years, sometimes deliberately getting killed in battle to activate a physically younger clone. This thing has never happened before, so there was no reason to expect it to. I still think that the existance of an undead clone in mix caused a magical backlash that activated all the clones.
I think that's probably the best way to look at it. My scenario above was merely a probable "campaign-specific" option, but when considering actual Realmslore... the "resonance" theory holds true.
As Steven has said -
quote:
Remember that he's only a ravening madman out to blindly kill when he's within range of another Manshoon clone, so as long as they stay discrete distance away (and outside of the official eyes)...
It's easy to see how changing the state of being a clone can prevent such future disturbances.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Aug 2005 : 17:06:34
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
Could it be that with each death of a Manshoon clone, the remaining clones grow stronger? (similar to Highlander and The One) That would explain the compulsion of each clone to kill the other clones. Perhaps the intention of the original Manshoon was to ensure that the last surviving clone would be very powerful?
No, I think it's just that each clone would become, for lack of a better term, more complete.
As for the killing compulsion, my theory is that having a magically-created identical twin creates a kind of resonance between the clone and the original, or between multiple clones. This resonance somehow acts on the individuals involved, forcing them to try to kill each other to end it. It could be that it causes some sort of pain or weird tingling inside, or it could cause an extreme antipathy between the two.
The clone spell in 2E had a similar effect: if the clone and the original were both active at the same time, they would try to kill each other.
The resonance theory also explains why Manshoon clones that stay away from each other don't have to kill each other: the resonance gets stronger as they get closer, becoming unbearable. But at a great distance, it can be ignored. Ditto for getting around it by becoming something other than a living Manshoon clone: you're no longer an exact copy, ending the disturbance.
Oh, and I doubt Manshoon intended for all his clones to battle each other. He's been using the spell for years, sometimes deliberately getting killed in battle to activate a physically younger clone. This thing has never happened before, so there was no reason to expect it to. I still think that the existance of an undead clone in mix caused a magical backlash that activated all the clones. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Aug 2005 : 15:08:20
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
That would explain the compulsion of each clone to kill the other clones.
Depending upon the style of my campaign, I sometimes interpret this like the Doombot scenario.
After Doctor Doom's supposed death (the second time around) the robotic drones crafted in the image of himself at one point all activated at the same time waging war against each other. Each of them carried the notion that they were the ONE TRUE DOOM and acted accordingly. They each believed that wiping out the other "impostor" Doombots would once again secure their position as King of Latveria.
The Manshoon Clone saga could be seen to be remarkably similar -- each clone believing that they are the ONE TRUE MANSHOON and seeking to prove that fact.
|
| Rivalen |
Posted - 07 Aug 2005 : 06:15:35
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Which Manshoon has the soul?
Since all of them woke up, I'd assume that his soul basically split into many pieces and each clone got one. As discussed in Azure Bonds, if a soul is infinite, then it can be broken up in pieces without diminishing it in any way. It's kinda like how Alias and her sisters all have part of Dragonbait's soul.
It is amazing that each Manshoon clone can exist with only a shard of the complete soul of Manshoon. I have a question, so if a Manshoon clone gets killed by another Manshoon clone, the soul shard carried by the killed clone is transfered to the other clone that killed it?
That's a very good question, and one I don't know the answer to... If the clone that dies has cast stasis clone, then the soul would go to that. If not... I think it would likely go in equal portions to all the other clones. This wouldn't have any effect on the clones, though.
Oh, and as for it being a shard... As was put forth in Azure Bonds, if you take a piece of something that is infinite, you now have two infinite things. So it would be the same as having the original, if you look at it that way.
Could it be that with each death of a Manshoon clone, the remaining clones grow stronger? (similar to Highlander and The One) That would explain the compulsion of each clone to kill the other clones. Perhaps the intention of the original Manshoon was to ensure that the last surviving clone would be very powerful?
Powerful enough to dominate the leadership of the Zhentarim organization? |
| Xysma |
Posted - 07 Aug 2005 : 06:07:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Which Manshoon has the soul?
Since all of them woke up, I'd assume that his soul basically split into many pieces and each clone got one. As discussed in Azure Bonds, if a soul is infinite, then it can be broken up in pieces without diminishing it in any way. It's kinda like how Alias and her sisters all have part of Dragonbait's soul.
It is amazing that each Manshoon clone can exist with only a shard of the complete soul of Manshoon. I have a question, so if a Manshoon clone gets killed by another Manshoon clone, the soul shard carried by the killed clone is transfered to the other clone that killed it?
That's a very good question, and one I don't know the answer to... If the clone that dies has cast stasis clone, then the soul would go to that. If not... I think it would likely go in equal portions to all the other clones. This wouldn't have any effect on the clones, though.
Oh, and as for it being a shard... As was put forth in Azure Bonds, if you take a piece of something that is infinite, you now have two infinite things. So it would be the same as having the original, if you look at it that way.
Could it be that with each death of a Manshoon clone, the remaining clones grow stronger? (similar to Highlander and The One) That would explain the compulsion of each clone to kill the other clones. Perhaps the intention of the original Manshoon was to ensure that the last surviving clone would be very powerful? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Aug 2005 : 17:29:20
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Which Manshoon has the soul?
Since all of them woke up, I'd assume that his soul basically split into many pieces and each clone got one. As discussed in Azure Bonds, if a soul is infinite, then it can be broken up in pieces without diminishing it in any way. It's kinda like how Alias and her sisters all have part of Dragonbait's soul.
It is amazing that each Manshoon clone can exist with only a shard of the complete soul of Manshoon. I have a question, so if a Manshoon clone gets killed by another Manshoon clone, the soul shard carried by the killed clone is transfered to the other clone that killed it?
That's a very good question, and one I don't know the answer to... If the clone that dies has cast stasis clone, then the soul would go to that. If not... I think it would likely go in equal portions to all the other clones. This wouldn't have any effect on the clones, though.
Oh, and as for it being a shard... As was put forth in Azure Bonds, if you take a piece of something that is infinite, you now have two infinite things. So it would be the same as having the original, if you look at it that way. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 01 Aug 2005 : 12:20:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Which Manshoon has the soul?
Since all of them woke up, I'd assume that his soul basically split into many pieces and each clone got one. As discussed in Azure Bonds, if a soul is infinite, then it can be broken up in pieces without diminishing it in any way. It's kinda like how Alias and her sisters all have part of Dragonbait's soul.
It is amazing that each Manshoon clone can exist with only a shard of the complete soul of Manshoon. I have a question, so if a Manshoon clone gets killed by another Manshoon clone, the soul shard carried by the killed clone is transfered to the other clone that killed it? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jul 2005 : 17:25:36
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Which Manshoon has the soul?
Since all of them woke up, I'd assume that his soul basically split into many pieces and each clone got one. As discussed in Azure Bonds, if a soul is infinite, then it can be broken up in pieces without diminishing it in any way. It's kinda like how Alias and her sisters all have part of Dragonbait's soul. |
| khorne |
Posted - 31 Jul 2005 : 12:30:01
Which Manshoon has the soul? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jul 2005 : 03:46:07
quote:
Originally posted by FreezeChaser
Excuse my asking, I am not that privy to the Manshoon war events, so can I know what is the current status of the Manshoon clones? Like who is dead or alive and what they are doing currently.
The Manshoon War was detailed in the 2E sourcebook Cloak & Dagger. 'Twas one of the last 2E supplements, and, in my opinion, one of the best. This book also detailed the Harper Schism and the formation of the Tel'Teukiira.
The Manshoon Wars... Basically, Fzoul Chembryl and Lord Orgauth (a pit fiend in disguise) decided to ambush and kill Manshoon. But, when they did so, his stasis clone spell malfunctioned. This spell created a clone of the caster, and when the caster died, their soul passed into the nearest stasis clone, which then came out of stasis. Manshoon had been using that spell for years...
Fzoul and Orgauth knew of this spell, and expected to simply kill each clone as soon as it showed up. But, as I said, something went wrong, and more than forty Manshoon clones woke up at the same time. After four of them showed up at once, Fzoul and Orgauth had to high-tail it out of there.
The Manshoons were all trying to get the original (er, previous active) Manshoon's magical goods -- items and caches of spellbooks. The problem is that when they're within a few miles of each other, they feel compelled to hunt each other down and kill the other clone.
So a bunch of Manshoons killed each other, and some decided to head to places where other Manshoons wouldn't show up -- like other planes or other worlds.
Officially, there are three Manshoons left.
One is Lord Orbakh II, the new Faceless in Westgate. This clone was bitten by a vampire before awakening (my theory is that it's his fault the spell misfired). When he woke up, he killed the vampire that made him, took over the remnants of the thieves guild, and now wants to build a vampire kingdom.
Another Manshoon clone is hanging out in Undermountain, with Halaster. Of him, Steven Schend (a great guy, and one of the authors of Cloak & Dagger) said in response to a question:
quote:
Why the hell is Halaster allowing a Manshoon clone to live with him? And why doesn't the clone go beserk and try to kill everything in the Undermountain?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>ahem<
Halaster sends greetings and a note: "For the same reason I once delivered a gibbering mouther unto a fellow mage's bed chambers--variety."
Manshoon's note and answer to your query: "Reasons twofold--I am far too well-mannered to go berserk, and I have better things to do than kill the pets of my host, as infinite and oft-regenerative as they are."
Geez, I'm beginning to remember why I stopped writing in the Realms--the random notes dropping out of thin air around me....
Steven
who thinks it's a very good thing the Manshoon of Undermountain isn't interested in establishing a Zhentish trade route through Skullport....but he wonders what he's up to in talks with various and sundry slavers, illithids, and githyanki..... >:)
The third Manshoon made a deal with Fzoul: Fzoul leaves him alone to do his own thing, and Manshoon doesn't interfere with the way Fzoul runs the Zhentarim.
Now, it was discovered that Manshoon clones wouldn't feel compelled to kill each other if they became something other than a "living Manshoon clone". Becoming undead was one way around it. Permanently polymorphing into something else was another way... One person on the WotC forums turned a Manshoon clone into a female.
So, since there are ways around the compulsion, I think it's likely that there are other Manshoons around. They've either become something else, or found nice out-of-the-way spots where another clone isn't likely to wander by. |
| FreezeChaser |
Posted - 31 Jul 2005 : 03:02:50
Excuse my asking, I am not that privy to the Manshoon war events, so can I know what is the current status of the Manshoon clones? Like who is dead or alive and what they are doing currently. |
| PlainsWalker |
Posted - 30 Jul 2005 : 23:05:04
Well, I've just gotten an idea for my next game... Manshoon, the Halfling. |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 27 Dec 2004 : 19:15:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think it safe to say that you and I are not going to agree on this one. Let us just leave this topic as it is, with no further debates on canon, and return to discussing Manshoon.
Well met
Indeed, thank ye, Wooly Rupert. There are some very interesting points within this scroll, but let us all put the canon disagreements to one side and concentrate on Manshoon, lest this scroll becomes useless  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Dec 2004 : 11:43:38
quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
Ok so being railroaded into thinking you have to use every little thing as written is an acceptible solution to leaving canon a bit more loose than it has been..I think not.
As I say, I think an established timeline is better than just a "okay, this event might happen, or it might not..." There is no continuity at all without having things that definitely happen, and if not everyone is on the same page, then your continuity just went out the window.
quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
As to stifling creativity well if I followed canon ( thank god I don't) then my one of my favorite areas is in a bit of turmoil that would blow the whole course of my campaign. (The Orc invasion of the North)
Okay, so in your particular campaign, a major event doesn't jive with what you're doing. I fail to see how this stifles creativity.
quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
This is why I look at canon as more apocraphy than anything. One good thing about Dragonlance was the conflicts in continuity and also in the lags of major events. It left room for gamers to shape thier world and no one else.
It also meant that the timeline never moved forward, leaving us with a static -- and thus boring -- world. It's not interesting if things aren't happening.
quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
Yes include major events but keep them loose and definately optional as far as 'canon' goes. I look at the timeline as this may have happened rather than this did happen.
As I say, going this route ruins all hope of an established continuity.
quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
An no I don't want multiple sidebars explianing every possible outcome but a nice framework would be nice. For example they could say : This is what would not change if X event is ignored and a short list of major events follows. That's all that would be needed.
Again, where do you stop, though? If you go far enough back with making events optional, then you need more and more info to allow people to work with it -- see my example above.
This not only creates headaches for the creators to try to think up alternate timelines, but it also takes away valuable pagecount that could be used on more lore.
quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
Or, you could do a small book or series of them on alternate histories.
We don't get enough Realms products per year as it is. Going your route would mean less stuff for the majority of the people, who more or less do stick with canon.
quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
and finally:
quote:
No, I think the best solution is the current one: to give one timeframe, and have everyone stick to it. It's easier on everyone, all the way around. Let's face it, it's already difficult enough to stay consistent with Realms continuity, so keeping it simple as possible is the best course.
And this is not stifeling?
No, it is not stifling, for all the reasons I have previously stated. When I look at a new sourcebook, I don't say "well, I don't like this, so I can't use it." I find ways to use it -- it challenges my creativity, it doesn't stifle it.
I think it safe to say that you and I are not going to agree on this one. Let us just leave this topic as it is, with no further debates on canon, and return to discussing Manshoon. |
| the psychotic seaotter |
Posted - 27 Dec 2004 : 07:41:17
Ok so being railroaded into thinking you have to use every little thing as written is an acceptible solution to leaving canon a bit more loose than it has been..I think not.
As to stifling creativity well if I followed canon ( thank god I don't) then my one of my favorite areas is in a bit of turmoil that would blow the whole course of my campaign. (The Orc invasion of the North)
This is why I look at canon as more apocraphy than anything. One good thing about Dragonlance was the conflicts in continuity and also in the lags of major events. It left room for gamers to shape thier world and no one else.
Yes include major events but keep them loose and definately optional as far as 'canon' goes. I look at the timeline as this may have happened rather than this did happen.
An no I don't want multiple sidebars explianing every possible outcome but a nice framework would be nice. For example they could say : This is what would not change if X event is ignored and a short list of major events follows. That's all that would be needed.
Or, you could do a small book or series of them on alternate histories.
and finally:
quote:
No, I think the best solution is the current one: to give one timeframe, and have everyone stick to it. It's easier on everyone, all the way around. Let's face it, it's already difficult enough to stay consistent with Realms continuity, so keeping it simple as possible is the best course.
And this is not stifeling?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Dec 2004 : 04:21:13
quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
I can see Some of what your saying. Yes certain expectations are set by canon and the past history. But "staying Official" syifles too much creativity IMHO. Instead fo making the world yours your game is micromanaged by the company that owns the world.
So you get things like the premature ending of the Manshoon wars, or felling that youhave to include certain less desirable things like Maztica.
In a perfect world the FRCS would have included blurbs like "history without the TOT" which would give a framework for running a game without that event. You could open up some better possibilities by not haveing such a hardset timeline to work against.
Again IMHO the basis of a setting should be campign framework or a jumpstart rather than set in stone history or stress on an 'official' set of events.
I disagree. I do not find staying within canon to be at all stifling. If I don't like something, I either don't mess with it (Maztica), or I find a work-around (there's more only three Manshoons, but more former Manshoons).
Further, I don't find your solution workable. Why not? Because after a good length of time has progressed, that section would become longer and longer and longer. If the ToT never happened, then Cyric would have never become a deity, Xvim would have likely remained slumbering, Zhentil Keep wouldn't have been destroyed, and so on. And when later events build on earlier ones, what then? A section that says "If A happened but B didn't, then C is what's going on... If B happened but A didn't, then D is happening, unless you want to incorporate C, which means E is happening now..."
No, I think the best solution is the current one: to give one timeframe, and have everyone stick to it. It's easier on everyone, all the way around. Let's face it, it's already difficult enough to stay consistent with Realms continuity, so keeping it simple as possible is the best course.
As a final note, by having set-in-stone events that happen in a setting, it keeps the setting dynamic. I came to D&D stuff thru Dragginglance, but soon got bored with that setting, because after the War of the Lance and the Battle of Palanthas, nothing happened for years! Everyone went backwards, instead of moving the setting forward. There were no new noteworthy happenings until the Chaos War -- so for years, there was nothing to hold my interest in the setting. A setting where nothing happens isn't one that's going to sell very well. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 27 Dec 2004 : 04:19:23
There may well be more Manshoon clones floating around after all there are "3 Remaining that Woke up" whats to say that there arent other sleeping clones scattered in places that didnt allow them to wake up ie Clones that had been left in areas that became wild or Dead magic regions during the Time of Troubles? |
| the psychotic seaotter |
Posted - 27 Dec 2004 : 03:29:35
I can see Some of what your saying. Yes certain expectations are set by canon and the past history. But "staying Official" syifles too much creativity IMHO. Instead fo making the world yours your game is micromanaged by the company that owns the world.
So you get things like the premature ending of the Manshoon wars, or felling that youhave to include certain less desirable things like Maztica.
In a perfect world the FRCS would have included blurbs like "history without the TOT" which would give a framework for running a game without that event. You could open up some better possibilities by not haveing such a hardset timeline to work against.
Again IMHO the basis of a setting should be campign framework or a jumpstart rather than set in stone history or stress on an 'official' set of events. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 27 Dec 2004 : 03:15:13
And a postscript, Gentle Scribes all:
Pray be not overly harsh with Mr. George Krashos.
Ed regards him VERY highly as a Lore Lord of the Realms of many years standing, who has stitched and rescued and smoothed over many a tear in Realmslore. He should be revered, not poked verbally.
Anyone who wants to poke others with their tongue should look in my direction first. I enjoy such assaults, when I'm (ahem) reclining comfortably. 
love to all,
THO |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 27 Dec 2004 : 03:10:38
Um, dear psychotic seaotter, does this mean you DON'T want to know Storm Silverhand's bust size?
My character is sleeping over at her farmhouse just now, in the original Realms campaign (Dungeon Master: Ed Greenwood himself). I can stroll across the room to her bed, hands at the ready, and find out for you.
Always eager to please,
THO |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Dec 2004 : 01:15:05
quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
One question and it is not an attempt to start something...Whats the big deal with canon anyway? Seriously who really cares about this? I could care less what WOTC,Ed or anyone else says is canon as to keep my games continuity up.
Some people care about canon because they want to stick with the official line. I'm one of them, and there are plenty of others. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 27 Dec 2004 : 01:10:30
quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
One question and it is not an attempt to start something...Whats the big deal with canon anyway? Seriously who really cares about this?
This is hard to explain because there are many different reasons.
One wants often to know the world they live in. Discovering that the ring of protection provides less protection causes upset. "What do you mean I failed to save I have <foo> that says I always get a save"
Some relay on the rules, *you see a yellow mold* that each having read the MM know is very dangious if attacked by fire. The DM making the yellow mode only safely killed by fire upsets expectaions of the players, of course the Characters just suffer the punishment.
There are some fans loyal to the Storyline because of respect for the crafted and seek to recreate it.
In general, IMO, it comes down to the demand/expectation of some stability.
If a DM announces a FR game with minor adjustments player can generate characters based on novels and source materials that any PC should have some knowledge of. Realm history and so on.
Then if the DM announces one of the minor adjustments is a 25 percent spell list, that certain communities no longer exist and so on. The player expectation is dashed (Oh the DM that bad would not tend to manage a campaign well either) of playing in FR, perhaps Hillsfar does not exist or got burned down when a character history was based on having family in Hillsfar.
Canon is an anchor to any defined world. The more history about a defined world the more a duty to respect its histroy. Sink Waterdeep anf most will not believe that they are in FR, just a world simmalar to it, unless such an event is explained by an official source. This because the information becomes common knowledge. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 27 Dec 2004 : 00:59:31
quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
One question and it is not an attempt to start something...Whats the big deal with canon anyway? Seriously who really cares about this? I could care less what WOTC,Ed or anyone else says is canon as to keep my games continuity up.
You'd be surprised at what can develop over discussions on this subject. I've seen on more than a few message boards, canon discussions quickly turn into arguments where people that had once been models of civility turn into ill mannered idiots.
quote:
I like the novels and yes there should be somecontinuity to them but drooling over finally hearing what Storm Silverhands bust size is or what color Khelbins last stool was is a bit sad, whats even worse is basing your game off this...
34d for the first query. I'll leave another scribe to tackle the latter topic. |
| the psychotic seaotter |
Posted - 27 Dec 2004 : 00:32:04
One question and it is not an attempt to start something...Whats the big deal with canon anyway? Seriously who really cares about this? I could care less what WOTC,Ed or anyone else says is canon as to keep my games continuity up.
Yes I like the novels and yes there should be somecontinuity to them but drooling over finally hearing what Storm Silverhands bust size is or what color Khelbins last stool was is a bit sad, whats even worse is basing your game off this...
Sorry but I just don't get it..and yes some of the above commebts were attempts at humor. |
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