| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 19:54:27
Both the Weave and the Shadow Weave were destroyed. The result was that magic is virtually unchanged, but the Weaves' respective goddesses lost control of their shares o' the spell lists.
So...
I'm guessing that means that having control of the Weave only allows you to 'manipulate' magic (for example, when Mystra decided to give magic only to those with 'good' intentions during the Trial of Cyric the Mad) not create or destroy it. Ergo, with no one there to guide it, we get Chaotic Magic running wild (The Spellplague).
AND So....
Does this mean that since magic is now available once again to any and all with the finger-waggling bent, that magic has sort of found a more 'natural', unguided place in the Realms, one that cannot be affected by ANY god considering no one has it as a portfolio?
(*attempts to uncross his own eyes*) |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 07 Nov 2008 : 10:54:38
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
One influences the other in some capacity anyways. I agree that it doesn't justify pointing the finger the wrong way, but the influence is there nonetheless.
-The don't do the pointing of the fingers, if you agree. 
I'm not doing the pointing myself so much as noticing it being done from elsewhere  |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 07 Nov 2008 : 05:55:48
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Gray, your post here is VERY close to the way Ed Greenwood has always described the Weave.
The Weave is ONE WAY OF accessing natural forces through an organized system of "calling on forces in such a way as to produce predictable effects" (spells), the ability to call being aptitude for the Art (magic), and other ways of calling on the forces also being called magic (just as spells can call on the Weave to power them, or access natural forces in other ways).
If the Weave is electrical current flowing through house wiring ("mains" to scribes from the UK), a table lamp could be a spell, but someone else could have a battery-operated flashlight or lamp (another spell, powered also by electricity/the natural forces of the world, but through another means; the battery being another magical system distinct from the Weave).
Once the Weave collapses, that doesn't mean "magic" is gone forever. Other deities could replace the destroyed generator or power plant, and get current flowing again. If the current works differently (AC versus DC), the spells would have to work differently, too, but could end up producing the same end result as Weave spells.
love to all,
THO
-That is truely awesome. 
BRIMSTONE  |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 23:17:11
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
One influences the other in some capacity anyways. I agree that it doesn't justify pointing the finger the wrong way, but the influence is there nonetheless.
-The don't do the pointing of the fingers, if you agree. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 11:24:43
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Which, in turn, does not result in setting materials being perceived as subpar because rule materials are perceived as subpar, or that rule materials are perceived as subpar because setting materials are perceived as subpar. Setting materials are perceived as subpar because of what they contain, while rule materials are perceived as subpar because of what they contain.
-You don't kick the dog because the cat scratched your furniture, just like you don't kick the cat because the dog ate the dinner you left on the table. Both are pets, and the dog might have ate the dinner because you left to deal with what the cat did, or the cat might have scratched the furniture because you left to deal with that the dog did, but what the dog did is the dogs fault, and what the cat did is the cats fault.
One influences the other in some capacity anyways. I agree that it doesn't justify pointing the finger the wrong way, but the influence is there nonetheless. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 21:17:31
Gray, your post here is VERY close to the way Ed Greenwood has always described the Weave.
The Weave is ONE WAY OF accessing natural forces through an organized system of "calling on forces in such a way as to produce predictable effects" (spells), the ability to call being aptitude for the Art (magic), and other ways of calling on the forces also being called magic (just as spells can call on the Weave to power them, or access natural forces in other ways).
If the Weave is electrical current flowing through house wiring ("mains" to scribes from the UK), a table lamp could be a spell, but someone else could have a battery-operated flashlight or lamp (another spell, powered also by electricity/the natural forces of the world, but through another means; the battery being another magical system distinct from the Weave).
Once the Weave collapses, that doesn't mean "magic" is gone forever. Other deities could replace the destroyed generator or power plant, and get current flowing again. If the current works differently (AC versus DC), the spells would have to work differently, too, but could end up producing the same end result as Weave spells.
love to all,
THO |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 18:57:08
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Problem is that the setting is heavily influenced by the rules (hence ToT to explain rules switches from 1E to 2E and Spellplague to explain switch from 3E to 4E - although the Spellplague wasn't only done for the rules change, it still was one of the multiple reasons, wether we agree with those reasons or not).
-Which, in turn, does not result in setting materials being perceived as subpar because rule materials are perceived as subpar, or that rule materials are perceived as subpar because setting materials are perceived as subpar. Setting materials are perceived as subpar because of what they contain, while rule materials are perceived as subpar because of what they contain.
-You don't kick the dog because the cat scratched your furniture, just like you don't kick the cat because the dog ate the dinner you left on the table. Both are pets, and the dog might have ate the dinner because you left to deal with what the cat did, or the cat might have scratched the furniture because you left to deal with that the dog did, but what the dog did is the dogs fault, and what the cat did is the cats fault. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 17:43:14
Well said, Gray. So then, as I asked before, if we're going to agree that magic was, during the Spellplague and the time before the campaign year, simply wild, currents of energy in the air, then it was unaffected by any god at the time and remains as such today. Magic is simply a part of the landscape, like a river. |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 15:18:18
Excellent analogy Gray. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 11:21:40
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Eh, keep the rules and the setting apart. This is a problem with the setting, and not the rules, so let's not drag the 4e rules into it. That's all extraneous.
Problem is that the setting is heavily influenced by the rules (hence ToT to explain rules switches from 1E to 2E and Spellplague to explain switch from 3E to 4E - although the Spellplague wasn't only done for the rules change, it still was one of the multiple reasons, wether we agree with those reasons or not). |
| Pandora |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 09:00:54
So - in theory, with no weave to provide an "easily accessible" source - only a rudimentary amount of power should be there now and nothing as powerful as Elven High Magic should exist? With "raw magic" a big part of the available power should be spent by every individual caster to gather/control/harness magic. I am just guessing and applying my own logic there of course. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 08:26:38
My take on it is that the Weave was a magical infrastructure that allowed you to tap magic in a controlled, civilized manner, in a similar way to the manner in which electrical outlets and wires that run through your home allow you to use electricity to run all your appliances and lights, etc. without getting electrocuted. It was all invisible, of course. The system just worked, though. You said some magic words, made your somatic gestures and used your ingredients in the prescribed manner, and poof, the spell took effect just as surely as flipping a light switch. Each spell was scribed into spellbooks and passed down from spellcaster to apprentice going back to the time of Netheril and before.
But when Mystra died, the Weave collapsed. Just as if the power plants were to fail, nothing electric would run. So too, with the Weave gone, when a mage cast a spell, even if he performed it perfectly, just as he and all the mages before had done for centuries, nothing happened. The currents and pathways which channeled the power of raw magic into a useful form were broken down. The magic would no longer flow.
But the raw magic was still around, just as lightning is in the sky, and static is in a rug or a balloon, the raw magic permeated everywhere, it was simply inaccessible.
So after the spellplague, magic had to be "reinvented", from scratch. They had to experiment like Ben Franklin, flying kites in a thunderstorm to get their first sparks. Magic was no longer "received" wisdom but hard fought and won through experiment, trial and error. Rubbing amber on fur to create static. Playing with handcranks and belts and copper spheres, coiling wires to make magnets and Tesla coils. Using tungsten filaments in vacuum bulbs to create illumination. Well, the new mages did none of those things, exactly... but just like Tesla and Edison they had to find new ways to access and make useful the raw magic that the Weave once channeled.
The new magic is not based on a Weave. It is more portable, personal, "cellular" if you will. If the Weave was like an invisible infrastructure of connected wires and electrical networks that you jacked into like plugging in a TV or a wall phone, then the new magic might be more of a wireless metaphor, people carrying rechargeable batteries, cell phones, flashlights, personal generators with handcranks, etc.
So in the last century, the new wizards learned all the tricks they could figure out and passed them on to their apprentices. They know a lot now. The Players Handbook encapsulates their cumulative wisdom up to this point, and it is growing all the time.
That's my take on it, anyway. Just an analogy, not exactly what is really going on with magic, but an adequate metaphor, I think. Hope this was helpful.
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| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 02:29:55
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
can someone please explain this phrase to me?
"gave the lie to that belief".
I think they mean "uncovered the truth", or "dispelling the myth". Awkward...
-That is how I interpret that. Awkward writing, indeed, as, at least *I've* never heard such a phrase used before. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 02:13:11
can someone please explain this phrase to me?
"gave the lie to that belief".
I think they mean "uncovered the truth", or "dispelling the myth". Awkward... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 01:43:05
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
From the FRCG:
quote:
THE WEAVE
For eons, magic in Toril was focused through the Weave, controlled by the goddess Mystra. Although Netherese wizards of ancient days learned the truth, most people believed that magic would not be possible without the deity’s existence. However, the death of Mystra gave the lie to that belief. Now the term “Weave” is just another name for magic, if it is used at all.
-Which, of course, is a retcon that actually fails to recapitulate the universe.
-Keeping this idea in mind, try to reconcile the events that happened during that fateful time. The grand and mighty Karsus- Archmage without equal, king among kings, man among boys- was unable to fully seize control of the Weave when Karsus' Avatar was cast, because Mystryl severed her connection to the spell, causing the "download" to fail midway through, to put it in more contemporary terms. Why did she do this? Not because Karsus was borrowing her powers, but because she knew that Karsus would not be handle constantly repairing the Weave (which is all Mystaran propaganda, mind you). Why did the Weave constantly need repairing? Because the Netherese were casting True Dweomers, True 10th Level spells, that drew great deals of energy from the Weave.
 |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 01:38:24
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
It's akin to how encounters in D&D are now. An encounter area is designed to make the encounter exciting rather than to make sense within the context of the area/situation (in many cases or at least that is the intention) in order to skip the who/why/how and skip to the "fun".
That's the reasoning for that also I assume.
-Eh, keep the rules and the setting apart. This is a problem with the setting, and not the rules, so let's not drag the 4e rules into it. That's all extraneous. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 00:05:59
From the FRCG:
quote:
The Spellplague: The Weave collapsed in a moment with the murder of Mystra, unleashing catastrophe across the world. This section describes the effects of that magical disaster on the lands and creatures of Toril.
And this:
quote:
THE WEAVE
For eons, magic in Toril was focused through the Weave, controlled by the goddess Mystra. Although Netherese wizards of ancient days learned the truth, most people believed that magic would not be possible without the deity’s existence. However, the death of Mystra gave the lie to that belief. Now the term “Weave” is just another name for magic, if it is used at all.
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| Tyranthraxus |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 23:52:55
I'm just guessing here, but I think the Weave still exists and without some deity to maintain it turned into a raw magical force usable only by those who learn to controll it like wizards. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 23:07:19
Well, as usual, I'll wait for the novels rather than the texts to sort it out...or, I'll just come to my own conclusion...
I know, fellow DMs, I know, that's the road to ruin. But I like the idea of working in a 'living' Faerun more than one where we just roll our eyes and say 'well, that's just how it was designed.
Help, indeed, Alisttair. :D |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 22:38:30
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-The FRCG/FRPG provide no answers. We're expected to either gloss over the fact that magic has inherently been changed (ie, raw magic is now not dangerous enough to harm mortals, and minimalize the need for Mystra's Weave), or come up with an explanation on our own to satiate our own curiosity.
It's akin to how encounters in D&D are now. An encounter area is designed to make the encounter exciting rather than to make sense within the context of the area/situation (in many cases or at least that is the intention) in order to skip the who/why/how and skip to the "fun".
That's the reasoning for that also I assume. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 04 Nov 2008 : 22:29:39
-The FRCG/FRPG provide no answers. We're expected to either gloss over the fact that magic has inherently been changed (ie, raw magic is now not dangerous enough to harm mortals, and minimalize the need for Mystra's Weave), or come up with an explanation on our own to satiate our own curiosity. |
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