| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jakk |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 19:36:58
A Timeline of the Spellplague According to Established Canon Lore
I decided to assemble this Spellplague timeline based on canon "Lore Which Has Gone Before" because without a past, you have no foundation for consistency of the future. This, apparently, was "Forgotten" by Fourth Edition Realms designers. So, here is what *really* happened in and after 1385 DR, the Year of Blue Fire:
1385 DR (the Year of Blue Fire)
Cyric, aided and abetted by Shar, murders Mystra in Dweomerheart. The plane itself disintegrates at once, destroying Savras and sending Azuth and Velsharoon reeling into the Astral Plane. Without Mystra to govern the Weave, magic bursts its bonds all over Toril (but *not* the surrounding planes; the other planes have different entities responsible for magic) and runs wild, just as it did in 1358 DR (the Year of Shadows) and -339 DR (the Year of Sundered Webs). However, Ao is asleep at the wheel this time around, and does not resurrect Mystra (even a god cannot resurrect herself, despite what the lore says happened in -339, or this would all be moot). In Faerun, this event is known as the Spellplague. The brain of every single (and married  ) arcane spellcaster on the planet explodes just like Scanners, as does every charged magical item. Permanent magical items are unaffected. The Shadow Weave, supported as it is by the structure of the Weave, also collapses despite Shar's best efforts, causing similar effects among shadow magic users. Thultanthar crashes into the Sea of Shadows, exploding as it descends due to the high concentration of shadow magic it represents. Similar explosions happen all across Halruaa, as charged magical items and wizards' heads detonate like land mines.
The cosmology of Toril outside the Material Plane is unaffected, sustained as it is by divine magic and having nothing to do with the arcane Weave. However, by the time Ao sees what is happening, it is too late. The unleashed raw magical energies return the worlds of Toril and Abeiron (sorry, Eberron, um, I mean Abeir) to the same location in space in a devastating cataclysm, causing the complete destruction of both worlds. Elminster, trapped in his safehold and sorely weakened after the attack by the Sharrans and the death of Mystra, is unable to intervene (and likely would have been powerless to do anything anyway) but is spared the effects of the Spellplague that has just destroyed his world. He makes his way to Oerth, where he tells Khelben Junior of what has happened and establishes his own new home.
End of campaign. Shar wins. Shortly thereafter, she discovers just how boring it is to be queen of nothing, and begs her sister Selune to end her darkness forever. Selune, in despair over what has happened, refuses. Shar attempts to take her own life, but is prevented by Ao. This sparks another war between the gods (call it the Dusk Cataclysm, if you like), whose details I won't go into here. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jakk |
Posted - 30 Oct 2008 : 04:24:05
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
In regards to lore, Eberron won't top the Realms unless there's no new Realms material for the next 25 years. So I agree with you there.
However, the 'feeling' of the setting is starting to get closer, IMO. Spellscarred lands and people? Almost identical to Cyre and the aberrant dragonmarks of Eberron. If I wanted to play with dragonmarks and such, I would go to Eberron (and I have no difficulty doing so, I actually like the setting). However, I don't like these elements in the Realms.
I agree with you on all points. I like the dragonborn, but I thought that continuing with the existing 3E race would have made more sense, as would having the "new" dragonborn originate in Anchorome, which should have been the setting for any new geography, rather than giving people an excuse to rearrange Faerun again. The Sellplague was a manufactured excuse to destroy Ed's creation and remake it in the image of another designer's ideas, far more than it was a "legitimate" RSE to "explain" game mechanic changes. But that's my two coppers. There are elements of the post-Sellplague Realms that I like, most of which could have been retained without the Sellplague. Anyway, I've ranted enough in this scroll, and I have other things I'd like to accomplish this evening. I just hope that Brian James relays my thoughts on old lore distribution to someone who realizes that it's worth doing. I'm not going to hold my breath, though.  |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 30 Oct 2008 : 03:32:55
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Amazing how much the two settings are starting to look alike now...
I disagree. I've campaigned enough in EBERRON to appreciate that any similarities between the two settings are mostly superficial. Khorvaire still has plenty of unique features that I've never even found duplicated in the 4e Realmslore.
In regards to lore, Eberron won't top the Realms unless there's no new Realms material for the next 25 years. So I agree with you there.
However, the 'feeling' of the setting is starting to get closer, IMO. Spellscarred lands and people? Almost identical to Cyre and the aberrant dragonmarks of Eberron. If I wanted to play with dragonmarks and such, I would go to Eberron (and I have no difficulty doing so, I actually like the setting). However, I don't like these elements in the Realms. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 22:45:37
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Amazing how much the two settings are starting to look alike now...
I disagree. I've campaigned enough in EBERRON to appreciate that any similarities between the two settings are mostly superficial. Khorvaire still has plenty of unique features that I've never even found duplicated in the 4e Realmslore.
|
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 18:45:03
Amazing how much the two settings are starting to look alike now... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 17:33:33
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Alternatively, if you want a world left to adventure in, you simply ignore Abeir and have a magic-dead Toril... the perfect setting for a d20 Modern campaign...
I thought about a steampunk campaign set in the Realms just after I read GHotR.
You mean with lightning rails and strange clockwork beings and magical tattoos/brands/scars?
Eber-whatsit does have elements of steampunk -- minus the steam, of course.  |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 17:07:22
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Alternatively, if you want a world left to adventure in, you simply ignore Abeir and have a magic-dead Toril... the perfect setting for a d20 Modern campaign...
I thought about a steampunk campaign set in the Realms just after I read GHotR.
You mean with lightning rails and strange clockwork beings and magical tattoos/brands/scars? |
| Tyranthraxus |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 15:13:58
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Alternatively, if you want a world left to adventure in, you simply ignore Abeir and have a magic-dead Toril... the perfect setting for a d20 Modern campaign...
I thought about a steampunk campaign set in the Realms just after I read GHotR. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 15:03:33
quote:
Originally posted by prodigy12
soo plain and simple- shar kills mystra and releizes mistake and goes suicidal and finally all magic goes nuts and all gods except those worshiped on other plains ar now dead !!!!!
am i radin that first post right or is it me !! also i ahve read mistshore which is a FR book that takes place after the spell plague and in that book it mentions (still living gods) so im a bit confused
plz explain !!!
You've got it right, at least as I see the $ellplague unfolding (and no, that's not a typo). Of course, Wizbro manages to completely ignore causality, and allows magic to survive without the Weave, even though they acknowledge that the Weave will not survive without Mystra. Apparently, in 4E, magic is not a powerful enough force to have deities in charge of it... which kinda makes sense, if you have played a 4E wizard... I believe the class has been described as "a glorified archer" in other reviews (not on this site, sorry, and I don't have a link; Google that exact phrase and the word "wizard" and you should find it), and that has been my experience playing one (for the brief time that we were willing to touch 4E, none of which was spent in the 4E-canon Realms). 4E may not have been deliberately designed to break FR, but that's what it did, imho, and I'm well aware that there are those who disagree, but the poll on this site suggests that I'm in the majority (which isn't something I've ever particularly cared about until now). 
Edit: Link to poll cited above: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11736 |
| prodigy12 |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 23:01:45
soo plain and simple- shar kills mystra and releizes mistake and goes suicidal and finally all magic goes nuts and all gods except those worshiped on other plains ar now dead !!!!!
am i radin that first post right or is it me !! also i ahve read mistshore which is a FR book that takes place after the spell plague and in that book it mentions (still living gods) so im a bit confused
plz explain !!! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 00:14:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Except for the deific changes, I'd like to see them do something like this for the Realms. I, myself, would reset back to right before 3E came out. Some of the changes of 3E would be explained, others would be undone -- so dwarven magic use would be explained, but NPCs suddenly changing alignment would be undone.
I have to say I wouldn't mind that, myself, mainly because I've dropped or heavily modified most of the major events of the 3E-era anyway. Any events I like can easily be inserted back in.
quote:
Anyway, if that's what they're doing to the Greyhawk setting, it's kind of interesting. Why does one setting get blown up for a reboot, while another simply gets restarted from the beginning?
Who knows... |
| Jakk |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 20:00:29
Oh! I've got it! The different styles of handling the two settings are intended from the beginning to create more Greyhawk fans... that was what was omitted from Wizbro's marketing statement. It's not the Realms they want more fans for, it's Greyhawk! And presumably Dark Sun as well, since they're covering it next, apparently. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 19:46:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
All the same, let's keep it going; I saw a response from THO to my question about Khelben the Younger quoted by Christopher, and it wasn't entirely out of place; the "dovetailing" spoken of is simply that Khelben the Younger leaves Toril before the ToT and (presumably) returns in the Year of the Star Walker's Return, long after the major effects of the Spellplague have subsided.
Perhaps I was reading Chris wrong, but the way he stated it, it seemed that he was trying to use THO's comment about Khelben the Younger to back up his point that Ed created the Sellplague. That's what I was disagreeing with, and saying that he was taking out of context.
Okay, on that I agree with you 100%. Nuff said.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Presumably, this string of mechanics-change-inspired RSEs must happen in other worlds at the same time to account for the mechanics change, so Khelben the Younger still has to deal with the GSEs of whatever form the Spellplague takes on Oerth. Did Boccob and Wee Jas die too, taking the entire Circle of Eight with them? If not, I sense some bias in the multiverse, and like all bias, it smells of something foul.
Even before 3E and it's idea that the other worlds existed in their own, hard-to-travel-to universes, things that happened in one world don't effect things that happened in another. There was no Cataclysm in the Realms, for example, and Oerth was never Sundered. So the Sellplague didn't affect Oerth, any more than the Chaos War affect Oerth or Toril.
True... and particularly in the context of what we now know about the upcoming re-release of Greyhawk (see my previous post)... although, you could argue that the Sundering in the Realms was the same event as the Cataclysm in Krynn... if the timelines can be fudged. I don't have the Unified Timeline in my lore collection at the moment (lost in a hard drive crash some time ago), nor do I have any DL material handy apart from the 3E core book. When the new Greyhawk setting finally appears, it'll be interesting to see the response from the fans... I expect it will be far more positive than the response to the Sellplague.
However, that GH reset has the potential to seriously foul up continuity... if I'm right about Khelben the Younger returning in the Year of the Star Walker's Return, there will need to be some serious contortion of timelines done, I suspect, if Greyhawk's timeline is being reset to 1E boxed set time. But then, I have all possible faith in Wizbro's ability to perform the illogical. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 19:33:50
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
With regards to Greyhawk--I read recently on the canonfire forums (a GH site) that 4E Greyhawk is set to be released sometime between 2010-2012, and it is going to get an actual, full on reboot. That is, the timeline of the setting is being set back to year of the first boxed set (I think CY 576), and all the other setting developments are being ignored unless they are specifically mentioned in the new material. Apparently, the regular GH gods are being replaced with the new 4E core pantheon and it will be presumed to have "always been that way".*
So, there won't be a GH Spellplague, but I'd say there are major changes going on and I'm not sure how that will effect Khelben the Younger (if at all).
*I think I should point out that I don't recall seeing these comments about GH being sourced, but I got the distinct impression that the poster, GVD, knew what he was talking about and wasn't trying to BS people.
Here's the link:
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3323
I'd like to say that I'll believe it when I see it, but unfortunately, everything from 4th Edition being released in 2007 through today was all started with just such a post. 
I'm feeling a little piece of me die with this information. So, none of the published material ever happened? No village of Hommlett? No Demonweb pits? No White Plume Mountain? NO TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL?!?!
Damn, now I'm feeling as angry as Jakk. (Sorry Jakk!)
Vitriol is what keeps my blood flowing. No apology necessary. Still, I checked out that link, and here's a snippet from one of the mods (screen name Cebrion):
quote:
As to the original post, that actually all sounds like a very good way of fitting 4e into Greyhawk. I much prefer this to the "We just meteor swarmed your campaign world. Roll a saviing thow. D'oh! You failed! Now roll your item saving throws!(hehehe!) D'oh! All your items are GONE!!!" method used to re-set the Forgotten Realms. If you want to make use of the material from later events like FtA and so on, just apply the results of those later events to the revamped 4e Greyhawk(if you want to). Those later events are not being wiped out of existence- they just haven’t happened yet(and may or may not ever happen depending on how you as a DM want to run things). The new material not being specifically dependent on what has come before is not a bad idea at all. I just hope that this new start doesn’t just re-hash every single thing for yet another time, but also makes a point of expanding upon areas of the Flanaess(and beyond) that have received little or no attention whatsoever(and anybody could use that). You know, actual *new* material? Sounds crazy I know…
As far as I'm concerned, this is *all* good news for us as pre-Sellplague (or even pre-3E) Realms fans. If they're doing a complete reset on Greyhawk, they've just admitted that there's no reason it can't happen to the Realms as well.  |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 18:40:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Anyway, if that's what they're doing to the Greyhawk setting, it's kind of interesting. Why does one setting get blown up for a reboot, while another simply gets restarted from the beginning?
I think because the choices that were made regarding the Realms were based on opinion that people *liked* the Chosen looking like idiots, Shades being over-powerful and Shar being the supreme evil being. So, they couldn't get rid of that, now could they?
 |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 18:20:12
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Uh Ashe.... it might be hard for Gary to give input considering he passed away awhile back. Less WOTC hires some mediums. :)
-WotC has been accused of doing worse... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 17:42:16
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
With regards to Greyhawk--I read recently on the canonfire forums (a GH site) that 4E Greyhawk is set to be released sometime between 2010-2012, and it is going to get an actual, full on reboot. That is, the timeline of the setting is being set back to year of the first boxed set (I think CY 576), and all the other setting developments are being ignored unless they are specifically mentioned in the new material. Apparently, the regular GH gods are being replaced with the new 4E core pantheon and it will be presumed to have "always been that way".*
Except for the deific changes, I'd like to see them do something like this for the Realms. I, myself, would reset back to right before 3E came out. Some of the changes of 3E would be explained, others would be undone -- so dwarven magic use would be explained, but NPCs suddenly changing alignment would be undone.
And then we'd go forward from there. Some events would be left in place and untouched, like the Last Mythal trilogy or the Rogue Dragons trilogy. Some events would be redone -- like the Return of the Archwizards, this time done without making the Chosen and other well-known NPCS look like idiots and without the Shades being über-powerful. And other events would be either dropped altogether or heavily modified, like the War of the Spider Queen (which I perceived as having no point beyond marketing).
Anyway, if that's what they're doing to the Greyhawk setting, it's kind of interesting. Why does one setting get blown up for a reboot, while another simply gets restarted from the beginning? |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 16:46:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There was no Cataclysm in the Realms, for example, and Oerth was never Sundered. So the Sellplague didn't affect Oerth, any more than the Chaos War affect Oerth or Toril.
Or was there? Taking Oerth back to 576 seems to speak of a lot of the chronomancy problems that run rampant in Krynn. Maybe a certain kender took a portal to Oerth?  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 16:03:13
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
All the same, let's keep it going; I saw a response from THO to my question about Khelben the Younger quoted by Christopher, and it wasn't entirely out of place; the "dovetailing" spoken of is simply that Khelben the Younger leaves Toril before the ToT and (presumably) returns in the Year of the Star Walker's Return, long after the major effects of the Spellplague have subsided.
Perhaps I was reading Chris wrong, but the way he stated it, it seemed that he was trying to use THO's comment about Khelben the Younger to back up his point that Ed created the Sellplague. That's what I was disagreeing with, and saying that he was taking out of context.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Presumably, this string of mechanics-change-inspired RSEs must happen in other worlds at the same time to account for the mechanics change, so Khelben the Younger still has to deal with the GSEs of whatever form the Spellplague takes on Oerth. Did Boccob and Wee Jas die too, taking the entire Circle of Eight with them? If not, I sense some bias in the multiverse, and like all bias, it smells of something foul.
Even before 3E and it's idea that the other worlds existed in their own, hard-to-travel-to universes, things that happened in one world don't effect things that happened in another. There was no Cataclysm in the Realms, for example, and Oerth was never Sundered. So the Sellplague didn't affect Oerth, any more than the Chaos War affect Oerth or Toril. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 15:59:37
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
So, I guess Bane was always a god in Greyhawk. [sarcasm]Hmmm... Yes, that makes complete sense. Some mortal from the realms from long ago took up the mantle of godhood at the same time as a few others, but he was really good at it and started being worshipped over in Oerth.[/sarcasm]
As I understand it, core Bane is not the Realms Bane. The "one god, many worlds" idea of 2E has been long since chucked out the window. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 15:53:57
Actually, that was my point. If he was still alive, they'd have to seek him out to at least get his blessing. I'm not sure what his opinion would be on the matter, and no-one will know. But now, they don't even have to worry about that. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 15:45:58
Uh Ashe.... it might be hard for Gary to give input considering he passed away awhile back. Less WOTC hires some mediums. :)
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
worry about royalties (or even input) from Gary Gygax. 'Free money guys! We can make the ToEE just how WE want it!'
|
| Pandora |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 15:10:10
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
'Free money guys! We can make the ToEE just how WE want it!'
No need to put in too much work here either ... just change the stats of the critters to $e and youre done. It was a classic then and should be a classic now, eh? Cant wait for the Tomb of Horrors rerelease.[/sarcasm] |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 14:49:42
So, I guess Bane was always a god in Greyhawk. [sarcasm]Hmmm... Yes, that makes complete sense. Some mortal from the realms from long ago took up the mantle of godhood at the same time as a few others, but he was really good at it and started being worshipped over in Oerth.[/sarcasm]
Oh, and it just hit me. Of course they are going back to the origin of Oerth. Now they can re-publish ALL the old classics for Fourth Edition without having to worry about royalties (or even input) from Gary Gygax. 'Free money guys! We can make the ToEE just how WE want it!'
I need to take a break. Preferably in a bar. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 14:43:45
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'd like to say that I'll believe it when I see it, but unfortunately, everything from 4th Edition being released in 2007 through today was all started with just such a post.
I agree. I'm the type of person who likes to maintain a healthy skepticism. However, this person apparently pieced together the information from everything he (she?) learned from "Con-season" and seems to be a major contributor to the site.
quote:
I'm feeling a little piece of me die with this information. So, none of the published material ever happened?
Well, according to the post, it will have happened if the new material mentions it. We can count on, say, the developments from the controversial "From the Ashes" supplement not being there, though.
I think the part that disappointed me the most was the GH pantheon being completely retconned. It that happens, I don't see how that wouldn't jettison the setting, at least in part.
|
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 14:35:50
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
With regards to Greyhawk--I read recently on the canonfire forums (a GH site) that 4E Greyhawk is set to be released sometime between 2010-2012, and it is going to get an actual, full on reboot. That is, the timeline of the setting is being set back to year of the first boxed set (I think CY 576), and all the other setting developments are being ignored unless they are specifically mentioned in the new material. Apparently, the regular GH gods are being replaced with the new 4E core pantheon and it will be presumed to have "always been that way".*
So, there won't be a GH Spellplague, but I'd say there are major changes going on and I'm not sure how that will effect Khelben the Younger (if at all).
*I think I should point out that I don't recall seeing these comments about GH being sourced, but I got the distinct impression that the poster, GVD, knew what he was talking about and wasn't trying to BS people.
Here's the link:
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3323
I'd like to say that I'll believe it when I see it, but unfortunately, everything from 4th Edition being released in 2007 through today was all started with just such a post.
I'm feeling a little piece of me die with this information. So, none of the published material ever happened? No village of Hommlett? No Demonweb pits? No White Plume Mountain? NO TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL?!?!
Damn, now I'm feeling as angry as Jakk. (Sorry Jakk!) |
| Pandora |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 14:20:59
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I have no idea when exactly Ed Greenwood said what he said or when they were said in the Realms, but could they have been about the Time of Troubles when magic went bad as well?
I'm not 100% certain I understand your question, but if you're referring to his Armaggedon/Spellplague/etc. concept, I would have to guess, no.
The thing is that prophecies are ALWAYS vague, so any description of "spells going haywire and great death and change" could describe a handful of events. The post from George Krashos mentions modules FR1 and FR0 and those are from 1992.
quote:
copied from Everything2.com
Haunted Halls of Eveningstar was an adventure module for the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game, set in the Forgotten Realms campaign world. This module was written by the creator of the realms himself, Ed Greenwood (while Erik Olson, Valerie Valusek, and "Diesel" handled the artwork and maps). The adventure was originally published in 1992 (ISBN # 1-56076-325-6, TSR product number 9354), and has subsequently been republished in pdf format and is available at the Wizards Online Store for $5. It is also theoretically available on the gnutella network, (in theory the search string "TSR9354" would find it, but don't ask me because I have no knowledge of such things).
If this information is correct I would wager this "great change" was the Time of Troubles, because the change from 2nd edition to 3rd edition was a big one and a few gods died too. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 14:16:44
With regards to Greyhawk--I read recently on the canonfire forums (a GH site) that 4E Greyhawk is set to be released sometime between 2010-2012, and it is going to get an actual, full on reboot. That is, the timeline of the setting is being set back to year of the first boxed set (I think CY 576), and all the other setting developments are being ignored unless they are specifically mentioned in the new material. Apparently, the regular GH gods are being replaced with the new 4E core pantheon and it will be presumed to have "always been that way".*
So, there won't be a GH Spellplague, but I'd say there are major changes going on and I'm not sure how that will effect Khelben the Younger (if at all).
*I think I should point out that I don't recall seeing these comments about GH being sourced, but I got the distinct impression that the poster, GVD, knew what he was talking about and wasn't trying to BS people.
Here's the link:
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3323 |
| Pandora |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 11:07:35
I have no idea when exactly Ed Greenwood said what he said or when they were said in the Realms, but could they have been about the Time of Troubles when magic went bad as well? |
| Jakk |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 08:33:07
WOW! I lose track of my scroll for a few days, and the debate is awe-inspiring... but Kyrene wins.
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
No, no, no, no!
The Sellplague began, for all intents and purposes, in the dominions of the Corporation. Greed murdered Good Design, unraveling common sense in the cosmos and destroying her dominion. At the same time, Sales Fears and Warcraft Envy happened into alignment. This cataclysmic coincidence led to upheaval, shaking apart the primeval order, opening up holes in wallets, and reshaping everything...
 This is brilliant. I'm deeply envious that I wasn't the one to have written it, but I'm very happy that it was written.
All the same, let's keep it going; I saw a response from THO to my question about Khelben the Younger quoted by Christopher, and it wasn't entirely out of place; the "dovetailing" spoken of is simply that Khelben the Younger leaves Toril before the ToT and (presumably) returns in the Year of the Star Walker's Return, long after the major effects of the Spellplague have subsided. My only question is, why bother having him leave? Presumably, this string of mechanics-change-inspired RSEs must happen in other worlds at the same time to account for the mechanics change, so Khelben the Younger still has to deal with the GSEs of whatever form the Spellplague takes on Oerth. Did Boccob and Wee Jas die too, taking the entire Circle of Eight with them? If not, I sense some bias in the multiverse, and like all bias, it smells of something foul.
That being said, what's published is published, but let's not forget that the original release of Highlander II still exists... right alongside the Director's Cut that eradicated most of the evil of the original. Yes, I just equated Realms 4.0 with Highlander II. That's how I feel about it.
Ashe, I know I'm certainly sick of pointless retcons. As you can probably tell from my quoting of Kyrene, I also think that you've hit the nail on the head in your comment about "cashing in"; there was no need for a new edition of the Realms, and no pressing need for a new edition of D&D. What was needed for the Realms was more detail on areas beyond Faerun, and on particular areas within Faerun (the Lands of Intrigue, Cormyr, Anauroch/Shade/Netheril, Cormyr, the Great Glacier and Hartsvale, Cormyr, the Dalelands and Cormanthyr, Cormyr, Sembia, Cormyr... you get the idea). Yes, I wanted a Cormyr sourcebook. Lands of Intrigue would have been great too. Both of those should have come before Unapproachable East, imo. Now, we'll never get those products in a form that's usable for my purposes, so I'm voting for Pathfinder with my wallet. Given current economic forecasts, I may be voting for "my current gaming library" with my wallet, however...
Anyway, I'll say it again; I'm quite impressed with the quantity and quality of discussion on this scroll after the slow start, and if anyone still has something to say in this debate, let fly; everyone else has now done so, and some of them may not be done yet. (Let's hope, anyway.) |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 18:36:49
I don't think that retcons are bad. I do think that we, as an audience may be getting sick of them. Once in a while is okay, but if you've been following comics, Marvel and DC have done so many retcons in the past year, you need to read the wikipedias to keep track of your favorite characters' history. Then we see so many movies and shows based on stories we already new but with a "new imagining" and add in classic novels being "sequelized" by the new generation and I, for one, am tired of people that think they can make something better than what it was (or just cash in on a well-known idea that wasn't theirs). |
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