| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 13:27:26
or nightmare, rather.
It went something like this:
a dear friend, whom I've gotten to know and love over the past decade was abducted. The people who abducted him were the kind of pretentious lot that actually claimed that they loved and valued him. But that was not so. My friend wrote me of his situation and the more I heard the more upset I grew, for he told me how the kidnappers treated him. In this dream I felt that even what was written did not cover the extend of malice the kidnappers had within themselves.
I hoped that this nightmare would not come to pass, but as of now I can do nothing but face the truth:
the Realms have been kidnapped, abused and mutilated beyond recognition. There was nothing Ed could have done since he sold his child to TSR, who treated it with respect and honor. Not so Wizards!
Ed stays on board to do some much needed damage control, but what can he really do against the violation of his child? Not much, in my opinion...
I really do wonder whether this calculated gamble, as they call it, has been as calculated as they think it is.
Gone are the days where the creative teams had more say over a matter than the bean- or $$$-counters. Was Forgotten Realms doing so badly? I truely don't know, but in light of recent events I wonder who bought those sourcebooks that prompted Wizards to publish more. If the Realms were doing ok then it can be assumed that it wasn't enough... enough, again, is a matter of perspective, they did well enough to justify more publications.
The thing, in my opinion, to do now is not to buy the stuff in show of support because that would be utterly wrong, this seeming show of support for the Realms is basically just what these guys expect. "Oh, that lot will buy anything with Forgotten Realms on the cover."
If we do that we prove them right, and that their way is the way to go. If you are truly happy and satisfied with abuse and mutilation of a dear friend, then go ahead and buy the new stuff, no harm done with that, as you like the decisions.
If however you decide to draw a line that line has to be drawn NOW. There can be no other way than to show those kidnappers and rapists that we will not stand for it. We are NOT as gullible as they think us to be. We will not buy everything that says Forgotten Realms on the cover! The only way those frak-wits will understand that they have made one too many mistakes is to not support this abomination they claim is the true Realms-experience.
If the sales rise despite our boycott, then we know we are in the minority and that the battle for Faerûn is lost for us.
For me the most important parts of the Realms are its pantheons of dozens upon dozens of deities, the magical lands of whatever color, the Weave with all its wonder and mystery, the twisted and well-laid-out plots and counter plots and intrigues, the Chosen of Mystra and other deities...
I could go on but what is the point, this is solely my opinion of what makes the Realms great, but now it looks more like Ansalon or EQ: Planes of Power than what I have come to love...
Abused and mutilated beyond recognition, that is what the new and improved Realms are...
I will not support anything that comes from Wizards, even if Ed had a hand in damage control. I have more than enough lore in almost every Realms product ever published to last me more than another decade, and I have enough creativity and sense (especially more of both than the "new and improved" FR design team it seems) in this twisted brain of mine to not need Wizards of the Coast dictating me how "cool and awesome" the new Realms is. The Realms are ours, and everyone can live without some mutilators who do not get it.
By this I most certainly do not mean Ed, who advised against the change, and also said that the future of the Realms was a place of less magic and one he would not want to play in. This was said by him at a time when he knew that the Spellplague and all the other BS was already well on its way.
Can't say much more, other than that I'll finish buying those series of novels that I already own 1/3 or 2/3s of but after that I will spend my money elsewhere.
that's all folks...rant over 
Had to edit the ... more graphic brutality out |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 16:25:38
quote:
Originally posted by admcewen
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
īm in favor of the Boycott!!! No-one is enjoy the changes!!! Only the WOT!!!
I don't know enough of the changes (2 drag mag articles) to make a sensible opinion on this.
Once more, I encourage everyone (those who think that they will hate it, those who think that they will love it, and those who think that they will merely settle for it) to please go out and read the 4e FRCG before deciding whether or not to buy it. We will not know until then what final picture Ed will fit the pieces that we have been given into. Also, every purchase of the 4e FRCG will be a "vote" for the 4e Realms, and you will not know until you read the final product whether or not you will like (or dislike) it. |
| admcewen |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 15:39:46
quote:
Originally posted by IngoDjan
īm in favor of the Boycott!!! No-one is enjoy the changes!!! Only the WOT!!!
I don't know enough of the changes (2 drag mag articles) to make a sensible opinion on this. |
| IngoDjan |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 04:33:34
īm in favor of the Boycott!!! No-one is enjoy the changes!!! Only the WOT!!! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Jan 2008 : 15:01:38
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
I find it hard to accept that Mystra had no backup plan like at the ToT. They sure have to come up with a very good explanation for that (and her death in the first place). And then the community has to accept it. Let's hope there'll be a lot of information on all the change - that's what in my opinion didn't happen with the Jihad.
Well, Mystra 2.0 was still not entirely used to being a deity. So that could be part of the problem. It's also possible that some aspect of her murder -- such as the theoretical involvement of the Karsestone, which I postulated in another thread (think Spider-Man and the Venom symbiote) -- could have interfered with the backup plans that she had created. Though, to be honest, I expect that whatever it was that happened will simply be glossed over, leaving the dedicated fans forever scratching their heads.
There has been a good amount of info about the Jihad, most of which came out after the fans started screaming. But that info has not only failed to answer most of the major questions, it's actually raised more for me. The more they tell us, the less sense it makes.
I hope the post-Sellplague Realms won't fall into that same position. |
| Braveheart |
Posted - 25 Jan 2008 : 14:27:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
This discussion reminds me of the endless discussions concering BattleTech, which also was transferred 70 odd years into the future. I'll have a look at 4E when it comes out and then I'll decide if I'll stay in 3.5 - it could well be that WotC would be forced to maintain a production line in 3.5, similar to Mechwarrior vs. ClassicBattleTech.
When the Orc King prelude was first posted, and people started thinking of a century timejump, the Word of Blake Jihad and it's aftermath was the first thing that came to mind... That was something that happened years ago, and yet its something that still has us BTech folks in an uproar. I hate the Jihad, too, but not because of the change it represents -- it just doesn't make the first bit of sense to me.
The really frightening thing is: the Spellplague doesn't make any sense (yet) either. It's happening all over again... 
Well... I don't understand the reasoning behind inflicting the Sellplague on the Realms. But Cyric trying to murder Mystra makes sense (even if the actual success of it currently doesn't), and the turmoil and upheaval caused by her death and the dissolution of the Weave do make some sense. Not all of it does -- like Tymanther showing up, or why the Weave's shadow appears to be unaffected. At least some of the internal logic of the setting is maintained.
With the Jihad, though, no single aspect of it has made any sense to me -- not one. And it's all about the fact that the internal logic simply isn't there.
So while there are similarities between the Jihad and the Sellplague, I can deal with the latter a lot more readily than the former. It doesn't mean I like it, but it is more acceptable to me than the Wobblie Jihad was.
I find it hard to accept that Mystra had no backup plan like at the ToT. They sure have to come up with a very good explanation for that (and her death in the first place). And then the community has to accept it. Let's hope there'll be a lot of information on all the change - that's what in my opinion didn't happen with the Jihad. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 15:21:48
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
This discussion reminds me of the endless discussions concering BattleTech, which also was transferred 70 odd years into the future. I'll have a look at 4E when it comes out and then I'll decide if I'll stay in 3.5 - it could well be that WotC would be forced to maintain a production line in 3.5, similar to Mechwarrior vs. ClassicBattleTech.
When the Orc King prelude was first posted, and people started thinking of a century timejump, the Word of Blake Jihad and it's aftermath was the first thing that came to mind... That was something that happened years ago, and yet its something that still has us BTech folks in an uproar. I hate the Jihad, too, but not because of the change it represents -- it just doesn't make the first bit of sense to me.
The really frightening thing is: the Spellplague doesn't make any sense (yet) either. It's happening all over again...
Well... I don't understand the reasoning behind inflicting the Sellplague on the Realms. But Cyric trying to murder Mystra makes sense (even if the actual success of it currently doesn't), and the turmoil and upheaval caused by her death and the dissolution of the Weave do make some sense. Not all of it does -- like Tymanther showing up, or why the Weave's shadow appears to be unaffected. At least some of the internal logic of the setting is maintained.
With the Jihad, though, no single aspect of it has made any sense to me -- not one. And it's all about the fact that the internal logic simply isn't there.
So while there are similarities between the Jihad and the Sellplague, I can deal with the latter a lot more readily than the former. It doesn't mean I like it, but it is more acceptable to me than the Wobblie Jihad was. |
| Braveheart |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 14:01:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
This discussion reminds me of the endless discussions concering BattleTech, which also was transferred 70 odd years into the future. I'll have a look at 4E when it comes out and then I'll decide if I'll stay in 3.5 - it could well be that WotC would be forced to maintain a production line in 3.5, similar to Mechwarrior vs. ClassicBattleTech.
When the Orc King prelude was first posted, and people started thinking of a century timejump, the Word of Blake Jihad and it's aftermath was the first thing that came to mind... That was something that happened years ago, and yet its something that still has us BTech folks in an uproar. I hate the Jihad, too, but not because of the change it represents -- it just doesn't make the first bit of sense to me.
The really frightening thing is: the Spellplague doesn't make any sense (yet) either. It's happening all over again... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 13:39:44
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
This discussion reminds me of the endless discussions concering BattleTech, which also was transferred 70 odd years into the future. I'll have a look at 4E when it comes out and then I'll decide if I'll stay in 3.5 - it could well be that WotC would be forced to maintain a production line in 3.5, similar to Mechwarrior vs. ClassicBattleTech.
When the Orc King prelude was first posted, and people started thinking of a century timejump, the Word of Blake Jihad and it's aftermath was the first thing that came to mind... That was something that happened years ago, and yet its something that still has us BTech folks in an uproar. I hate the Jihad, too, but not because of the change it represents -- it just doesn't make the first bit of sense to me. |
| Braveheart |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 12:33:44
This discussion reminds me of the endless discussions concering BattleTech, which also was transferred 70 odd years into the future. I'll have a look at 4E when it comes out and then I'll decide if I'll stay in 3.5 - it could well be that WotC would be forced to maintain a production line in 3.5, similar to Mechwarrior vs. ClassicBattleTech. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 08:40:30
quote:
Originally posted by Grehnar
But when the past looks more exciting than the future, then there are problems.
Welcome to my general views on Role playing products, music, literature, movies, cartoons, comic books and fantasy. You get used to it, I promise. |
| Grehnar |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 22:42:24
I don't know. I guess I must have previously missed the silver lining to this particular storm cloud. But when the past looks more exciting than the future, then there are problems.
What a missed opportunity during the last decade prior to the Spellplague for an adventure to foil (or more likely, fail to do so) the plots of the gods. What an apocalypse. And as for post-apocalyptic survival, what potential!
My own campaign is still early DR 1370's so I imagine that by the time my lot get here, I will have long drifted away from buying any more canon. Hardly a boycott, more a reflection of quality as in any marketplace. WotC have missed about a century's worth of RSEs which actually have justification.
It's a shame after 20 years or so collecting but not a tragedy - the future looks dull so I'll make the end interesting. |
| Dart Ambermoon |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 21:53:38
Every individual itself is insignificant to a large corporation/political conglomerate/whatever. But as an individual you have to to take a stand and draw the line somewhere. I canīt be sure, if I "vote with my wallet", that others will do the same, regardless of what they are saying now. I canīt gauge whether it will change a thing if I do not support something I donīt like or whether many will or wonīt do so. Yet, at the end of the day, I have to make a decision and take a position for myself.
It would be fantastic (in my personal opinion) if there were a backlash regarding the "new" Realms, but even then...what are they supposed to do? Revert back? My point is, you can never "know" whether any form of protest will bear fruit, but protest may be valuable in itself alone. The bottom line is, that I donīt want to pay for or own a product, that makes me go for aspirin as soon as I look at it. Itīs a personal decision, ultimately. If something comes of it...great. If not, I can still live with myself.
And Mace...that was one fine rant...again! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 17:11:20
No doubt that any messageboard cannot be said to represent the majority. But that also doesn't mean there aren't "silent" customers out there who feel the same way we do. |
| arry |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 13:59:31
I don't think that WotC would even notice if either every member of this board bought 4E FRCS or boycotted it. We're just insignificant to them. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 11:56:58
Yeah, Zhakara and some Kara-Tur products tended to present those settings a more fantasy oriented instead of historically based (especially Jeff Grubb's great OA modules). Oddly enough, I think Kara-Tur ended up going backwards in this regard, with some of the later products more focused on making sure you knew that Shou Lung was almost just like China, for example. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 07:56:13
The Horde box had great locations, even though the horde itself and the cultures presented in the books were wrong for the Realms. Zakhara might have been wrong also, but the products were so good that it is difficult for me to say anything bad about them. Especially since they did not fall into the trap of following the "Real world to closely" Zakhara was pure fantasy and that did make it work, for me personally at least.
|
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 00:57:04
Hey, I like the Hordelands now, and I think Maztica is kind of fun to work with now as well. But a lot of the information on Maztica and the Hordelands was cut and pasted from history books, and didn't really have a "fantastic" element to it. The more they developed a separate identity from their historical analogs, and the more "fantasy" elements they had, the better they were, in my opinion. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 16 Jan 2008 : 00:38:31
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
As bad as TSR could be sometimes, they can't begin to touch WotC for pure disrespect for the Realms. Maybe it's just looking back through rose-colored glasses, but I feel that many of the greatest Realms supplements were written for 2nd Ed., like the books on the Harpers, Drow of the Underdark & Menzoberranzan, the Seven Sisters, the Undermountain boxed sets, the Myth Drannor boxed set...
And how can anyone forget the Volo's Guide books, which I regard as being some of the best stuff ever published for fantasy RPGs?
Sorry to all 3/3.5 supporters, but the Realms had its golden age already, and it's passed.
But to be fair, I think you could say that 2nd edition had the highest highs AND the lowest lows. We got a lot of great lore, but we also got the Horde and Maztica stapled onto the setting, as well as the Dhali Llama as well.
*blushes* I liked Maztica. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 23:49:43
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
As bad as TSR could be sometimes, they can't begin to touch WotC for pure disrespect for the Realms. Maybe it's just looking back through rose-colored glasses, but I feel that many of the greatest Realms supplements were written for 2nd Ed., like the books on the Harpers, Drow of the Underdark & Menzoberranzan, the Seven Sisters, the Undermountain boxed sets, the Myth Drannor boxed set...
And how can anyone forget the Volo's Guide books, which I regard as being some of the best stuff ever published for fantasy RPGs?
Sorry to all 3/3.5 supporters, but the Realms had its golden age already, and it's passed.
But to be fair, I think you could say that 2nd edition had the highest highs AND the lowest lows. We got a lot of great lore, but we also got the Horde and Maztica stapled onto the setting, as well as the Dhali Llama as well. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 23:31:31
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
One thing I do disagree with: TSR didn't always treat FR with respect. They produced some absolute crap too. Check out some of the names in Bloodstone Lands and, worse still, the abomination that became Raven's Bluff under the RPGA. Steven Schend presided over a golden age of outstanding 2E products but there was definitely some rubbish released (including, arguably, everything associated with the Time of Troubles).
As bad as TSR could be sometimes, they can't begin to touch WotC for pure disrespect for the Realms. Maybe it's just looking back through rose-colored glasses, but I feel that many of the greatest Realms supplements were written for 2nd Ed., like the books on the Harpers, Drow of the Underdark & Menzoberranzan, the Seven Sisters, the Undermountain boxed sets, the Myth Drannor boxed set...
And how can anyone forget the Volo's Guide books, which I regard as being some of the best stuff ever published for fantasy RPGs?
Sorry to all 3/3.5 supporters, but the Realms had its golden age already, and it's passed.
(That said, I'll probably buy the 4th Ed. basic books as well as the Realms sourcebook. Curse my weakness...) |
| I Am Not A Bear |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 22:46:10
I fully intend on not buying anything related to 4E. It's an absolute disgrace what they've done to the Realms. |
| LordArcana |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 21:31:48
While many would say this is playing devils advocate here i have to laugh (seriously and out loud) when i saw a glimpse of the rules for 4thE. Creatures that were immune to criticals in 3.0 and 3.5 are now open for crits..infact its the easiest way to kill them...for instance ZOMBIES.
I have been doing this for years! Nobody asked me for my input on helping with 4thE though...guess i am just a FR lackey :)
I think sucker is more appropriate |
| Theophilus |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 21:24:52
Just a small clarification on my earlier post - I'm not advocating an economic boycott - I'm asking people to think about the serious nature of calling for something like that (boycotts are serious matters and shouldn't be thrown around lightly.)
I think Hawkins is mostly right in his advice - have a subtle read of the works when you see them, listen to the commentary on sites like this, consider your own feelings then make a decision. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 19:54:29
Thank you Mace, I appreciate your rants as they often more eloquently reflect my feeling on the subjects they cover. That being said:
Though not quite ready to commit to boycotting the 4e Realms, I fully intend to spend time in Borders perusing the FRCG and FRPG before voting with my wallet for the 4e Realms. However, considering all the work that Ed has and is putting into making sure that the 4e Realms includes a place for us Old Guard Realms fans, I need to at least give them a gander. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 15:32:33
Well on the bright side, it means less money being spent to buy real realmslore, barring the purchase of out of print material. |
| LordArcana |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 12:20:25
I spent the better part of Sunday night into Monday morning thinking about this very topic, and other than the things i have said above i developed a new opinion on certain aspects.
I suppose its not a bad thing that 4thE takes place 94 years in the future as it gives me over one hundred years from my current campaign to intigrate the last two pages of GHotR |
| Theophilus |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 23:04:25
Strong words in this rant and I call upon everyone to consider the seriousness of the proposition of a financial boycott (that appears to be called upon here and in other places).
That being said, as an "old-timer" having just come back to the Realms in the last year, I'm pretty troubled by these changes as I feel that they have seriously altered the setting well beyond what was laid out in the original Gray Box. Even the subsequent developments (2nd/3rd) still retained the general feel (despite some notable objectionable developments) but this is now almost a new setting.
I'll have a look at the novels, but I'm pretty much out when the setting changes.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 22:47:58
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
One thing I do disagree with: TSR didn't always treat FR with respect. They produced some absolute crap too.
I was thinking the same thing.
However, I still enjoyed reading the rant, and much like many other people I do not intend to buy 4E Realms sourcebooks. After all the time I've spent discussing why the 4E Realms doesn't feel like the Realms to me, I absolutely DO NOT want to vote for these changes with my wallet. And yes, that is a sad thing for me, because I love the Realms, I respect (if not outright admire) certain designers--most of all Ed Greenwood--and there probably are some things in the FRCG that I could make use of even though I would never use the Spellplague. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 16:30:42
Glad you got that of your chest Mace old friend!
As to what I have to say about it.....
No Comment |
| LordArcana |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 16:23:51
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
Wow, strong words in this rant. ;)
One thing I do disagree with: TSR didn't always treat FR with respect. They produced some absolute crap too. Check out some of the names in Bloodstone Lands and, worse still, the abomination that became Raven's Bluff under the RPGA. Steven Schend presided over a golden age of outstanding 2E products but there was definitely some rubbish released (including, arguably, everything associated with the Time of Troubles).
Personally i liked the articles in Polyhedron about Ravens Bluff but hated the RPGA Living City Campaign mainly because despite the articles being intended for Ravens Bluff they could be adapted to be put anywhere.
While i agree the ToT made a mockery of a good timeline in the realms its explained the transition of 1st to 2nd edition better than the spell plague is doing for 3.5 to 4thE. |
|
|
