| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Blackwill |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 18:47:51
Hello fellow scribes,
I posted the question to Ed here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=70
But i'm really curious what everyone else thinks about Warlocks, and if they have a place in the realms. Any and all input is quite welcome. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 00:27:12
I like the warlocks, as they're different from the usual spellcaster, and powerful enough (especially when run as a villain with the usual flunkies) to be a tough opponent.
F'r instance, I was thinking of using a warlock half-fiend dwarf as a ruler within the mines of Tethyamar, leading goblinkin, worghests, and tieflings (some of whom are also taking training as warlocks) as a long-term enemy for any players I ever get. The idea being to send PCs into the mines to reclaim them for the dwarves & the Tethyamar royals, only to learn that there is one other descendant of the old royal line remaining, and he's not happy that outsiders are trying to throw him off his rightful throne...
After they get in, I imagine they'd be happy when they finally find that undead dwarf cleric & his rune golems (? the ones from MM2) who've been using that rune circle to keep the Deeplord out of the most sacred chambers of Old Tethyamar. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 05:08:02
Ah, true! It makes sense for a power like that to try to grow his influence in the region as such, i.e., other than solely through disguised manipulation of the Knights of the Shield. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 04:41:17
I beleive you are correct . . . don't have my books at hand at the moment, but I could see Gargauth, since he is active in the area, making pacts with families associated with the organization, even if he did so without revealing who he really was. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 04:34:09
Tnx! Yeah, IIRC it's actually a secret to the Knights of the Shield that Gargauth is involved, though. I think even the two senior members Hhune and Ghantuz don't actually know who the Hidden Lord of the Shield actually is. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 04:05:12
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Re: the notion of a warlock making pacts with a demons or devil does anyone know of any cults cited in canon that worship demons or devils (I guess that would be archdevils of demon princes, specifically, from the Nine Hells) anywhere in the Lands of Intrigue? I'm not aware of any from Lands of Intrigue, Empires of the Sands, Calimport, and Empires of the Shining Sea (though the latter for some reason I'm not able to search for keywords in the .pdf that I got from RPGNow). I would think these tend to be secretive anyway, though.
Although he is a deity now, Gargauth was/is the secret patron of the Knights of the Shield, active in the Land of Intruigue. Over the years I can see a few members of the Knights of the Shield entering into pacts and perhaps becoming warlocks . . . hm . . . at any rate, when the organization was founded, Gargauth was "just" an exiled archdevil. |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 04:03:33
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
I'm not aware of any from Lands of Intrigue, Empires of the Sands, Calimport, and Empires of the Shining Sea (though the latter for some reason I'm not able to search for keywords in the .pdf that I got from RPGNow). I would think these tend to be secretive anyway, though.
They didn't OCR Empires of the Shining Sea. The file size is bigger too, consistent with a series of large images than text. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 03:58:36
Re: the notion of a warlock making pacts with a demons or devil does anyone know of any cults cited in canon that worship demons or devils (I guess that would be archdevils of demon princes, specifically, from the Nine Hells) anywhere in the Lands of Intrigue? I'm not aware of any from Lands of Intrigue, Empires of the Sands, Calimport, and Empires of the Shining Sea (though the latter for some reason I'm not able to search for keywords in the .pdf that I got from RPGNow). I would think these tend to be secretive anyway, though. |
| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 29 Nov 2006 : 16:37:22
I would think that warlocks would be somewhat more common in countries with a strong summoning tradition, like Thay or perhaps many drow cities. I can see the demons/devils/whatever awakening the powers in some that may be nearby and don't know better, perhaps. Those individuals wouldn't necessarily need to be evil, although it does seem more likely. For good obsessed with vengance, it seems to me to that the pacts with good outsiders could be like the example of the first dragonborn, out of the Races of the Dragon. Without the physical transformation of course. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 29 Nov 2006 : 12:17:26
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I wouldnt mind seeing a Warlock varient that hurls spellfire
Ive never really been satisfied that the Spellfire Channeler PrC adequetly represent what we know about spellfire
Theres no way that the Spellfire wielder from Eds novels had the 5 class levels that you need to have to pick up that PrC (She was at best a 2nd level thief when she first starts hurling spellfire
To do some spellfire wielding, you just need one feet and the goodies are yours, no matter what class you have. Easiest option to annoy other spellcasters wanting to harm you ... and because of that, spellfire wielding has seen very (as in: VERY) little use ever since those three novels.
Regarding the topic, as I said, I regard warlocks as some sort of witchlike class ... and IMHO both the warlock as well as the witch suffer (or enjoy) the same sentiments from the populace. Whether they actually deserve it or not. What makes the use of this class a bit egdy is the different sort of "magic" they wield. Much like psionics or these fighting stuff in the Tome of Battle, these invocation rules are something player and DM have to take on board before using the class (and set it into relation to the "normal" rules) and more often than not, one party will decline the additional workload. Just MHO, of course. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 02:35:47
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I wouldnt mind seeing a Warlock varient that hurls spellfire
Ive never really been satisfied that the Spellfire Channeler PrC adequetly represent what we know about spellfire
Theres no way that the Spellfire wielder from Eds novels had the 5 class levels that you need to have to pick up that PrC (She was at best a 2nd level thief when she first starts hurling spellfire
1st actually, according to her 2e stats. :) |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 01:55:10
I wouldnt mind seeing a Warlock varient that hurls spellfire
Ive never really been satisfied that the Spellfire Channeler PrC adequetly represent what we know about spellfire
Theres no way that the Spellfire wielder from Eds novels had the 5 class levels that you need to have to pick up that PrC (She was at best a 2nd level thief when she first starts hurling spellfire |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 01:39:12
I think that in general, warlocks in FR would follow the same basic ideas as in any world. Some make pacts with demon, others have some sort of heritage-based link to the fey world, and others might derive their powers from another source. As alluded to in DoF, there is likely to be something related to warlocks and the Sildëyuir, though what, I cannot (yet) say. Along with Erik's reference, we can surmise that they are a minor, but real presence in the Realms. Beyond that, I think people can use (or not use) them however they desire. The existing references are vague enough to be used casually or considerably (or not at all).
And amazingly enough (and I honestly didn't know about this when I wrote this post, hence this added edit), this is my 333rd post. It also happens to be about warlocks. I wonder if there's a connection. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 22:58:19
I was thinking of having a cabal of warlocks as the Nentyarch of Narfell's elite guards/bodyguard.
-- George Krashos
|
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 26 Nov 2006 : 13:04:53
For me, warlocks are limited to NPCs, or more specifically villians. There are only 3 known and they are powerful behind the scenes type bad guys. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 25 Nov 2006 : 17:25:57
Yeah, with free will but 'tainted' by the pact--or tortured, actually, if the soul rejects those dark impulses. Maybe rebelling against the agreement forged by the ancestor with a demon results in any number of terrible curses, or reduction of powers, or even outight loss of spellcasting ability. I guess this would be kind of a mirror-image of a paladin's fall. Although here the warlock isn't bound by his own personal oath, it is the oath of an ancestor that has bound his fate. |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 25 Nov 2006 : 15:41:42
That's where the story elements come. The souls do have free will. That doesn't mean that the original supplier of the power won't come and try to exact his/her due. Familial curses have always existed in FR (for example, Kelemvor's animalistic family curse, if my cranial wires aren't crosses). People do break them, but usually not before a lot of pain and suffering occurs. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 24 Nov 2006 : 23:06:36
That's great stuff, that definitely makes them a more interesting class.
At least make them decidely evil. It's not a perfect analogy, but to some extent as a blackguard is to a paladin, so a warlock would be to a sorcerer. Someone who has definitely gone down an evil path.
The wrinkle of a warlock making a deal that involves service by his descendants is very fertile ground for story and roleplaying material! Although if all souls are supposed to be created with free will in FR then I guess that's problematic. |
| Kazzaroth |
Posted - 24 Nov 2006 : 11:40:04
I would imagine the warlocks are liek the name suggest but the pact what the evil sorcerrors make whit devils and demons etc expands severall generations. I think many had agreed to say; "May seven generation of my offpsring serve thee" to enforce the pact and so any offspring kinda 'heritages' the pact and in a way he/she is boligated to fullfill it but because the invidual was not even exchisting when the pact was made there is no compulsion to 'fullfill' the pact.
Reason also why later generation warlocks still can be able channel their warlock powers despite they break their pacts whit their patrons is because patron honestly said is not the source of the powers, but is rather middle man and all alter generation warlocks gets connected to the source whitout him. So it would be reasonable to asume that any 'patrons' of warlock's ancestors would want seduce warlocks into darkness for greater power to serve them.
But in end if warlock goes to rogue it does not matter because the warlock is most cases (earlier it was always until I saw PrC called Enligthened Spirit from Complete Mage) forever tainted by the powers what he haves and so is later generations also and all warlocks hear the fiendish dark whispers to do evil deeds and have strange twisted desire do them (and so warlock haves similar personall conflict like tieflings have inside them). So if even in seven generation of warlocks there is two rogue warlocks eventually one later generations will turn bad and it is part of ultimate portfolio of fiendish patron; Spread evil among mortals and corrupt them.
At least this is my opinion of the matter at least. Warlocks may present a rare breed of offsprings of very evil sorceress or sorcerer who have dealed alot whit fiends and I recall sorcerous powers are always heritaged by blood. So warlock is simply said a tainted sorcerer. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 22:06:19
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'm not going to say anything overt -- and nothing I haven't said already -- but for those who are interested in warlocks in a narrative/novel setting, I may have just the book for you . . . but you'll have to wait until March. 
Cheers
Oh my, I can't imagine what book that might be. 
Cool! |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 15:43:00
I'm not going to say anything overt -- and nothing I haven't said already -- but for those who are interested in warlocks in a narrative/novel setting, I may have just the book for you . . . but you'll have to wait until March.
Cheers |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 14:38:47
I'll bet NWN2 is the basis for most people's interest in it these days. That is, playing such a character in a NWN2 persistent world. Trying to keep the gameworld in line with FR canon, etc. I know that's Blackwill's interest over at ALFA, at least, and mine as well, for Exodus. |
| Sian |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 09:44:32
but since it is a CRPG it aren't canonic |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 02:06:12
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
The only reference to warlocks in existing books is a single one I made in Dragons of Faerun. It's a quote by Pherix Traeleth, Master Warlock of the Sildeyuir. I left it suitably vague so people can introduce the class (or not introduce it) at their leisure. With increasing requests for this sort of thing, there may be some more references and information forthcoming on other classes, though what or where I cannot say.
Theres also a Warlock in Neverwinter Nights 2 |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 01:22:43
By the way, although I realize warlocks need not be evil (and this is pointed out constantly, especially on the NWN2 boards), I do find it telling that out of five available alignments for this class, three of them are evil. |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 21:35:28
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Uh hum,
these last few replies are threading on some thin ice. Maybe we need to get off the current topic and return this to a FR topic.
Of course. We'll try to be more careful. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 03:45:12
I don't see the need either--many of these extra base classes (not to mention PrCs) seem superfluous. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 03:39:01
Heh, when you say fictional... I'm talking mythology. Which is storytelling. Which in turn is fiction. Mythology is a deeper layer of possibly universal meaning to fantastic tales that get retold again and again, generation after generation, in a variety of cultures. I'm not talking so mcuh about literal figures in history who may have been male and practiced witchcraft. We don't really know that much about whatever the reality was of all that.
A warlock as demon 'summoner' isn't quite what I was getting at... As I'm understanding what a warlock is, it would be that their power was granted by demons (masters whom they serve), in exhange for gathering souls for them.
I realize that we needn't get hung up on the word itself. I guess my main point is that in my view the class is basically redundant with a sorcerer. I would like to see it differentiated far more, and significantly different on a conceptual level. But since the class is what it is, rather than what I'd prefer it to be, it's kind of a moot point. Well, anyway, this is what we have discussion boards for. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 00:22:48
The word 'warlock' doesn't correspond directly to demon-summoner, but for the sake of argument, that's very much a fictional image of a wizard as imagined by Christians trying to demonize other people's magic.
Are there demon-dealing mages in the Realms? Yes. Should some of them have the warlock class? If you want (I don't see the need). |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 00:16:57
It's a discussion of archetypes used in the Forgotten Realms and their roots in real world mythology. We would not be using any of these concepts found in the game but not for the mythology that is their source. But I hear you, and I also don't intend for it to become a discussion about religion.
To restate it in FR terms, if you want to call this new class a 'warlock', in such a way as to meaningfully differentiate it from a sorcerer, wouldn't it make more sense to a) have them draw their power in some way from demons and devils (see Monster Manual), 2) seek to collect souls for their masters (yes, souls exist in FR, see Manual of the Planes), 3) be evil by definition? Because that's what a 'warlock' is.
That is actually very different from the archetype of a shaman, which is essentially what I'm asserting would provide a better model for sorcerer.
Ottherwise, as it stands, what's the point, really, of creating a slightly different type of sorcerer? That's all the FR warlock is near as I can tell. And again, my emphasis is not skills and feats but on understanding and roleplaying a character. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 23:23:50
Uh hum,
these last few replies are threading on some thin ice. Maybe we need to get off the current topic and return this to a FR topic. |
