| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 08 Apr 2003 : 11:35:50
Here's what I want to know. Why do non-martial gods and goddesses have paladins? For instance, Chauntea and Sune; they don't seem to be the types. And it was mentioned elsewhere that Kelemvor, who was now considered Lawful Neutral, also has paladins. If a paladin can only be Lawful Good, how can that fallow? Do the neutral powers have alternate classes to the paladin? (I ask that because I've heard of the anti-paladin.) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 15 Feb 2020 : 05:15:43
Master Krashos,
I just want to thank the academy, all of my supporters, the Old Mage, and especially Kadh yn Ororm al Mjol in supporting my endeavors. I wouldn't be up here with this Golden Paladin award without you all!
__________________
In all seriousness...I am really glad that they did that. One of my more favorite subjects to read on is ethical modeling and especially how it affects policy creation in economics and law. It is good stuff for my brain.
In fact, I've been thinking about starting up a scroll regarding ethical modeling for analyzing character's of the Realms, as well as for figuring out character builds. What do you think?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, the times have caught up to your genius cpthero2. In 5E paladins can be any alignment so all of the things you note above are perfectly valid. Kudos to you.
-- George Krashos
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 07:34:19
Well, the times have caught up to your genius cpthero2. In 5E paladins can be any alignment so all of the things you note above are perfectly valid. Kudos to you.
-- George Krashos |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 07:13:45
Hey all, and specifically Great Reader Bookwyrm,
Just over two years of waiting and still, no hatred towards my response here! ;)
I figured I would stir the pot with my outlooks on things. There must be a great many Eldath worshipers here. :)
Best regards,
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| cpthero2 |
Posted - 28 Sep 2018 : 16:00:09
Great Reader Bookwyrm,
I am certain I am about to step into a pit of hatred with my answer here, but here goes...
Paladins are just martial clerics, who have given up a certain amount of magical skills in lieu of the martial ones. Paladins are just simply a force multiplier of protection, enforcement, and determent. Now, the thing about it is...why were at one time Anti-Paladins the "bad" paladins of evil gods, and paladins were "good" paladins for good gods? What about the neutral ones? No paladin of Silvanus, or how about Kossuth? If you take into account what I've said, and use in my campaigns, you realize quickly that alignment restrictions on paladins are useless. Paladins in the founding days of Gary Gygax were quite simply a romanticization and comingling of the ideas of divine magics and martial skills of knights from a hybrid High Germanic Manorial time in Earth history. When juxtaposing materials from 1st edition Dungeons and Dragons against what and where it is now, one can quickly see that it was very old school, romanticized Medieval stuff.
A paladin of Shar, should be no different than a Paladin of Lathander, Oghma, or Moander (were he still alive, wait...).
Just my 2.3344908343 cents worth.
Best regards,
P.S. Let the heresy trial begin!!!! lol
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Here's what I want to know. Why do non-martial gods and goddesses have paladins? For instance, Chauntea and Sune; they don't seem to be the types. And it was mentioned elsewhere that Kelemvor, who was now considered Lawful Neutral, also has paladins. If a paladin can only be Lawful Good, how can that fallow? Do the neutral powers have alternate classes to the paladin? (I ask that because I've heard of the anti-paladin.)
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| Shadowlord |
Posted - 21 Feb 2004 : 22:26:56
Hehe, I like it. Of course, if we all got low-wage jobs, McDonalds would have an influx of employees..... |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 21 Feb 2004 : 19:36:13
But at the very least, it might get idiots like Jack Chick from going to/putting their kids through our colleges. Then they wouldn't get degrees, would have to settle for low-paying jobs, and generally pass out of society. Forget survival of the fittest -- it would be more like survival of the sane!
Ah, what a nice thought. Too bad it wouldn't be that easy . . . . As it is, it would make for a great addition to John Lennon's Imagine.
Imagine all the world . . . playing D&D . . . .  |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 20 Feb 2004 : 18:39:11
Yes, and that would be such a disgrace to the Realms......  |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 20 Feb 2004 : 18:31:13
I've never had a professor who didn't know what he was talking about. But I have had a few who simply couldn't teach. One actually did almost nothing but read from the book!  Why did I pay for that class, anyway? I might as well have just paid for the book for all I got out of it. And since it was using the same book as part one of the course, which had a wonderful professor, I wouldn't have taken a loss.
These people are why I want to be a teacher. In fact, it was my Biology professor who convinced me of it. I was absolutely sure that for most of that semester, I could have taken her place and taught better by reading from the book -- and as you might have guessed, I don't conider such an act to be actually "teaching."
D&D ought to be required for teachers, don't you think? Of course, a bunch of them would just become munchkins, probably. |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 20 Feb 2004 : 18:18:56
Of course, I had an excellent physics honors teacher, who was eventually replaced by some college moron (No offense for those in college, I am referring to this one person only, not you.) who didn't know what she was talking about! |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 20 Feb 2004 : 18:15:00
The main problem with American education is that kids get too bored, usually because the teachers can't actually teach. They just recite and expect you to remember. |
| Darth KTrava |
Posted - 19 Feb 2004 : 04:54:42
I'd say this has been a very intense, and informative discussion that I've just finished reading. ::whew!::
I think that I can agree with whichever poster who said that Tyr was basically a "stick in the mud" kinda guy(god)....  And that's basically how I play a paladin to him that I'm playing... I wonder how many people play the kind of paladin that basically shouts "I'M A PALADIN!!" no matter where he goes. I don't. Mine that I play was the kind that "hinted" at her abilities like an off-hand comment about the detection of evil over there or such as that.
I'd say that the poster, Mournblade, knows his history stuff! I kinda like history myself but aren't as knowledgeable nor have any sort of a degree in it. A friend of mine minored in history and my ex-boyfriend is an ancient history and WWII buff. My mother is a Civil War (American) buff. Anything I've learned of those periods, I learned from them as I never learned that nifty stuff in school (stupid USA school system! )
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 21:23:18
No, I was just explaining the alignment for you. |
| eilinel |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 20:53:37
and... then?
is one of those ways better than the other? |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 06:03:46
::coughs at the dust from the old scroll::
Dwarven society is clan-based. The clan comes first, then the family, then the individual. With elves, things are less ritualized, and more inclined to spirit than form. |
| eilinel |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 23:41:25
mmh
i don't see any main difference between the way dwarves and elves judge. and i don't think one is better than the other.
and, however dwarves are mostly loyal when elves are chaotic.
has alignment any relation with judgment?
i personaly don't think so.
that's why i think Tyr shouldn't be lawful good.
or, he should be the god of one type of judgment...
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| Aeriden Raven |
Posted - 25 Jun 2003 : 10:49:37
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
Ok, all of that is true... but a lawful judge will favore a lawful guy against a chaotic one, anyway, just because they can understand themself.
No, that's what a chaotic judge might do  A lawful judge will uphold the law and judge everyone in the same way. Naturally judges are no robots, so there will always be individual differences, but I think a lawful judge is the best you can do.
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
Besides, the lawful people use to care only about men or humanoids, so to speak. At least in DnD. Chaotics tend to care also about nature, animals, and the relationship with them. Is it really strange?
I was wondering where you got that information. In my opinion this has nothing to do with alignment, only with classes and specific characters. I can think of plenty chaotic characters who do not care a lot for nature and animals (I don't mean evil characters) and of lawful characters who might.
I think the paladin discussion is an interesting one. I think they should be lawful, but everything about his alignment has already been said by people who have a lot more background knowledge than I do |
| zemd |
Posted - 11 May 2003 : 12:56:27
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
I have got that feat and the silent spell feat too... i don't try, if u want my advice, i do.
As you may have notice she doesn't use her silent spell feat often... |
| eilinel |
Posted - 07 May 2003 : 16:11:36
I have got that feat and the silent spell feat too... i don't try, if u want my advice, i do.
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| Mournblade |
Posted - 07 May 2003 : 02:37:44
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
Ok, all of that is true... but a lawful judge will favore a lawful guy against a chaotic one, anyway, just because they can understand themself. Since u are close to the mind of the one u judge u must feel the same... And don't tell me that there is no judge in elf kingdoms. Elf don't judge by an other way and are defenitivly chaotic by nature. And so?
Its u who make the laws, so a judge god don't follow any other laws than its, or maybe those of Ao? But i don't think so, only Helm may know what Ao want exactly, and Ao doesn't care about mortels.
Chaotic judgment is not always how u feel, but i could be how people feel at this time, which is quite different.
Besides, the lawful people use to care only about men or humanoids, so to speak. At least in DnD. Chaotics tend to care also about nature, animals, and the relationship with them. Is it really strange?
Eilinel!!! STOP! Your trying to cast that CONFUSION spell with the STILL SPELL feat again aren't you?????
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| eilinel |
Posted - 06 May 2003 : 10:00:11
Ok, all of that is true... but a lawful judge will favore a lawful guy against a chaotic one, anyway, just because they can understand themself. Since u are close to the mind of the one u judge u must feel the same... And don't tell me that there is no judge in elf kingdoms. Elf don't judge by an other way and are defenitivly chaotic by nature. And so?
Its u who make the laws, so a judge god don't follow any other laws than its, or maybe those of Ao? But i don't think so, only Helm may know what Ao want exactly, and Ao doesn't care about mortels.
Chaotic judgment is not always how u feel, but i could be how people feel at this time, which is quite different.
Besides, the lawful people use to care only about men or humanoids, so to speak. At least in DnD. Chaotics tend to care also about nature, animals, and the relationship with them. Is it really strange?
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| branmakmuffin |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 00:53:05
The Faiths & Pantheons web enhancement has a lits of all the paladin (and monk) orders in the Realms. Presumably, the deities listed are the only deities who officially have paladins. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 : 04:25:47
That's pretty good, Mournblade. I like that. Any other such tidbits that you added? |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 : 02:11:07
It is VERY interesting to note, that the Vikings who worshiped Tyr, saw him as the god of warriors, and also as a judge of sorts. I LOVE how Ed Greenwood included the Viking god Tyr into the pantheon. He is the Viking god Tyr in all respects. He is blind like the Viking God (Notice even the Vikings thought justice should be blind), and he has only one hand like Tyr of the Vikings...
Norse Tyr lost his hand to Hel's hound Garm. Faerun Tyr lost his hand to Kezef the Chaos hound.
I have extended this a bit further. Since Deities and Demigods (3e) was published, I am now allowing Valkyrie as servants of Tyr. He is the Only god of the Forgotten realms that has Valkyrie as servants. Why? He is the only god with any connection to Asgard. My view of the planes is really that of a multiverse. The planes are infinite, and that Cosmology in FR Campaign setting, I still follow, but each of the deities domains is part of one of the classic planes. For example Bane's realm is located on Acheron. You can travel to the god's realms through the realms cosmology or through the classic planar pathways set up in the 1st edition.
How did I get on this subject?
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| zemd |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 18:28:02
A chaotc judge would also decide as he feels, not as the law should be interprated. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 17:31:02
Quite right, Zemd. The whole aspect of a fair judge is one who favors no particular side. That's hard to do, of course, being as judges are merely human (I'm talking about our world now).
One example of what I think is the best sort of system for a judge to work under is in the United States Constitution. I'm not talking about the-American-way-is-superior-to-all; this is just the only example I know the specifics of off the top of my head. Nor am I talking about laws, just the system as it pertains to the judge.
See, under the Constituion, a Supreme Court Justice is appointed by the President whenever there is a vacancy. So a Justice might feel obligated to rule in the President's favor. But that isn't always true. See, a Justice is appointed for life.
Why is that important? Because the Justice is never up for reelection, and so doesn't have to please anyone! (S)He can freely rule to the letter of the law without worrying that (s)he's going to loose that cushy job.
The first time this happened was when (I think it was President James Madison, but I'm horrible with names) a president appointed a Justice who was a good friend of his. However, that Justice never ruled in his friend's favor simply because he was a friend. He instead stuck to the letter of the law. (His friend wasn't happy, I can tell you that.)
Now, I'm not saying that the US Supreme Court is perfect -- I've really hated some stupid decisions they've made in the past. All I'm saying is that for a judge to be effective, (s)he needs to be free of constraints of public opinion.
Let's go back to D&D.
If the judge in question is Lawful Good, then that's not too bad. And in fact, most people would think that it's the best. However, this judge might not rule in favor of greatest balance, and instead focus on the immediate good. A judge who interperates laws in the English system (which is what is used in most of the world and in D&D as well) has to look long-term.
A Chaotic judge, what ever the moral alignment would be, would tend to act like acting erratically. A lot like trying to please the most amount of people, as if knowing election time is near.
If I were to go through all nine alignments, then that would not only take too long, it would also be repeating a lot of information. So, I'll just leave it like that. |
| zemd |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 09:54:23
When you're LAWful, you follow the LAWS. I think a judge must interprete the laws without favoriting anyone. |
| eilinel |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 09:49:18
And why should have a lawful alignment? |
| zemd |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 09:22:33
I agree Bookwyrm, in Prince of Lies is neutral. But in his statistics, he's LG.
But i still think that Lawful is the best. After all, he must stands to the laws edicted by Ao. Imo, for what it worths |
| eilinel |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 09:07:07
And why loyal? Does it mean that he tends to make more verdicts against chaotic beings?
I feel better with a loyal justice, sure, but it doesn't seem normal for me.
there is elf justice which is chatic good too.
The justice is like everything, so subjectiv.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 08:29:42
*blink*
Um, I seem to recall from Prince of Lies that Tyr was a neutral power . . . and that was why he was delivering the verdict to Mystra that she had to reconnect Cyric to the Weave . . . . |
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