| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 08:26:35
Has anyone ever seen any info on how MYstras chosen fit into Mystras church? Ie can the Chosen overule policys and editcts that High ranking Clerics of Mystra have made
I had a quick flick through the 7 Sisters source book and there didnt seem to be anything on this.. |
| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Sep 2006 : 01:36:38
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
The leader of the Church of Mystra in Waterdeep was a LE Necromancer.
Was? I thought he was still leader, as of CoS:W.
Yeah, he still is..... for now. :)
Meleghost Starseer -- and yes, he still is LE and still a necromancer.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Sep 2006 : 01:32:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
When did Wooly get Chosen status?  
I've long been the Chosen of Coyote. 
Hmmm... 'tis strange. I don't recall seeing any "Rupert" Bloodnames in the Coyote's exclusive Bloodnames listing. 
That's okay, I've not seen many Capellan kender, myself.
And you won't. You can't imagine how beneficial Capellan stealth technology has been to the roguish ways of the Kender handlers.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 21:25:16
quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
The leader of the Church of Mystra in Waterdeep was a LE Necromancer.
Was? I thought he was still leader, as of CoS:W.
Yeah, he still is..... for now. :) |
| Reefy |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 21:20:30
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
The leader of the Church of Mystra in Waterdeep was a LE Necromancer.
Was? I thought he was still leader, as of CoS:W. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 17:18:59
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
When did Wooly get Chosen status?
I've long been the Chosen of Coyote.
Hmmm... 'tis strange. I don't recall seeing any "Rupert" Bloodnames in the Coyote's exclusive Bloodnames listing.
That's okay, I've not seen many Capellan kender, myself. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 16:54:27
It's also in the FRCS. :) |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 13:43:25
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Where can I find this tale? "Rune of the Seven"?
it is not a tale but a rhyme...
2E The Seven Sisters p. 4
quote:
Seven bright stars in the sky I see.
Seven for those who watch over me.
Seven be the smiles down they send.
Seven be the troubles swift they mend.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 13:40:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
When did Wooly get Chosen status?
I've long been the Chosen of Coyote.
Hmmm... 'tis strange. I don't recall seeing any "Rupert" Bloodnames in the Coyote's exclusive Bloodnames listing.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 13:36:50
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Where can I find this tale? "Rune of the Seven"?
The 2e Seven Sisters tome.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 11:09:50
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
When did Wooly get Chosen status?
I've long been the Chosen of Coyote. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 09:25:16
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I think the example of public knowledge regarding 'Rune of the Seven' is appropriate here -- in that, even the most common Realmsian, who has likely never heard of the Seven/Chosen or appreciated the fact that they are actually real and living beings, know this simple and old rhyme.
In other words, your common Realms folk may know of or about such beings of incredible power -- either by name, reputation, or what your grandmother said she once saw. However, these are details almost entirely based on bards tales or rhymes like the 'Rune of the Seven', and they largely form the basis of most of the "public" knowledge regarding both the Seven and the Chosen. Not intimate details, and certainly nothing specific, just rumor, hearsay, and idle speculation in the local tavern on a cold and wintry night.
Where can I find this tale? "Rune of the Seven"? |
| warlockco |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 07:34:26
When did Wooly get Chosen status? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 03:16:30
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
and in the old 1E gray box it wasn't common knowledge that any of the Silver Sisters were Mystra's Choosen..I'm not eevn sure if they actually were at that point 
Quoth Ed and the Lady Hooded One, from December of 2004, in response to my question about whether they'd always been Chosen or if that was a later add-on:
quote:
Ah, shrewdly spoken, Melfius! Well said!
Hello, all. Herewith, Ed replies to darling Woolpert:
Wooly Rupert, Elminster and the Seven Sisters were ALWAYS Chosen of Mystra as they came into personal focus (in other words, by about 1972 I knew what a Chosen of Mystra was, some of the identities of the Chosen, and a lot about Mystra herself; I hadn’t figured out who the Seventh Sister was, and in fact left that for Steven Schend to deal with, much later, but before there ever was a D&D game, I knew that a select circle of powerful folk, many of the ladies being sisters who had silver hair and were ‘almost’ daughters to Mystra, were ‘special’ servants of hers, called the Chosen).
When TSR first purchased the Realms, this matter was informally discussed VERY briefly and then kept for my home campaign rather than being championed into print (I believe the thinking on the TSR end was that Dragonlance had used gods masquerading as mortal characters or developing from mortals before the readers’ eyes, so this Dragonlance-specific element had to be omitted from the Realms, but this is just a personal guess).
I dropped plenty of hints as to a ‘special relationship’ between Khelben, El, the Sisters, and Mystra and Azuth, and particularly between El and Mystra, during my 1986 turnover packages to Jeff Grubb at TSR, but you have to peer very carefully at the Old Gray Box to see hints of them.
The formal relationship was properly introduced to TSR later on for the same reasons I’d created it originally: they wanted to know why in tarnation certain characters could do, or had accomplished, what they did (and the status of Chosen was the explanation).
I know some TSR folks thought this was a mistake, and others welcomed the ‘superhero’ flavor the Chosen might be able to inject into the Realms (this being a currently-enticing design philosophy, at the time), but for me, it was merely revealing the explanation for why the Zhents hadn’t swept away Shadowdale long ago, the bad guys weren’t ALREADY ruling the known Realms, and so on: there had to be vigorous Forces For Good or Stability or the Status Quo ‘on the ground’ in the Realms, working against the jackbooted hurl-all-walls-down-ers.
Please note that this was part of limiting Mystra’s dominant divine power, and that only she was to have Chosen. Continuing the superhero vein, other creators working in the Realms invented Chosen of X and Chosen of Y, but it was never intended that other deities have Chosen who were more than mortal champions or individuals marked with the deity’s favor: Mystra was and is ‘special.’ As the goddess of magic in a high-magic world, she has to be.
So yes, “El and Storm and Khelben and the rest” WERE “Chosen from the beginning,” but the decision to feature them as such WAS “decided later on.”
So saith Ed. I’ve read longhand pencil manuscripts of Ed stories that bear dates in the early 1970s (before there was a D&D game) that refer to various characters being Chosen (one passage I recall was: “So it comes to this, Chosen of Mystra. Think you your fancy titles impress me, or will avail you one finger’s-worth in deciding this fray?”).
love to all,
THO
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| Kuje |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 01:04:08
Ed's discussed how the people of Haluraa see the Chosen of Mystra, it's in his May 27, 2006 reply. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 29 Sep 2006 : 01:01:23
Consider also that Faerûn is a big place which on the whole doesn't have the information gathering and dispersal power of our modern world - magic notwithstanding. Hence stories about "Chosen" and "Seven Sisters all blessed with the grace of Mystra" may be taken to be 'outlander propaganda' by nations such as Calimshan and other more remote areas. Similarly, Halruaa might know of the Chosen (and some of the more powerful Elders may have personal dealings with them) but as a point of national pride they downplay their powers and the favour they have received - given that they are the descendants of mighty Netheril, greatest land of magery in history , yada yada yada ...
It's important not to make blanket statements about the Realms re what people 'know' and what their 'opinions' might be. Diversity and subtleties give the setting much more impact and flavour as well as allowing DMs greater flexibility to avoid the "Chosen can do everything and there is nothing for PCs to do"-type scenarios.
-- George Krashos
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| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 15:33:42
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Being Chosen isn't what most in the Realms would consider 'public knowledge'. The high-ups of powerful Mystran churches likely know and appreciate the power and secrets of being a Chosen of Mystra of course... but I don't think every single acolyte and priest/cleric of the clergies in every Mystran temple are aware specifically of the nature of Mystra's Chosen and everything about them.
I see your point, Sage. But I always thought that the fact the 7 sisters and Elminster are touched by the grace of Mystra was common knowledge, spread by tales and songs of bards. Or even that the 7 sisters are Mystras "dauthers"....
I think the example of public knowledge regarding 'Rune of the Seven' is appropriate here -- in that, even the most common Realmsian, who has likely never heard of the Seven/Chosen or appreciated the fact that they are actually real and living beings, know this simple and old rhyme.
In other words, your common Realms folk may know of or about such beings of incredible power -- either by name, reputation, or what your grandmother said she once saw. However, these are details almost entirely based on bards tales or rhymes like the 'Rune of the Seven', and they largely form the basis of most of the "public" knowledge regarding both the Seven and the Chosen. Not intimate details, and certainly nothing specific, just rumor, hearsay, and idle speculation in the local tavern on a cold and wintry night.
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| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 14:33:11
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
I see your point, Sage. But I always thought that the fact the 7 sisters and Elminster are touched by the grace of Mystra was common knowledge, spread by tales and songs of bards. Or even that the 7 sisters are Mystras "dauthers"....
Is there a thread (maybe by Ed himself) where he elabrotates on that issue?
to nit-pick, the seventh sister is not common knowledge at all *cough* drow priestess 
and in the old 1E gray box it wasn't common knowledge that any of the Silver Sisters were Mystra's Choosen..I'm not eevn sure if they actually were at that point |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 13:32:28
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Being Chosen isn't what most in the Realms would consider 'public knowledge'. The high-ups of powerful Mystran churches likely know and appreciate the power and secrets of being a Chosen of Mystra of course... but I don't think every single acolyte and priest/cleric of the clergies in every Mystran temple are aware specifically of the nature of Mystra's Chosen and everything about them.
I see your point, Sage. But I always thought that the fact the 7 sisters and Elminster are touched by the grace of Mystra was common knowledge, spread by tales and songs of bards. Or even that the 7 sisters are Mystras "dauthers"....
Is there a thread (maybe by Ed himself) where he elabrotates on that issue? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 13:02:14
Being Chosen isn't what most in the Realms would consider 'public knowledge'. The high-ups of powerful Mystran churches likely know and appreciate the power and secrets of being a Chosen of Mystra of course... but I don't think every single acolyte and priest/cleric of the clergies in every Mystran temple are aware specifically of the nature of Mystra's Chosen and everything about them.
After all, consider Elminster's position during the early stages of the Time of Troubles -- he had lost much of his Chosen abilities. Those that knew of his status as Chosen sought to profit from his loss of power, immediately seizing upon the opportunity to destroy him.
I'm not saying that Chosen go out of their way to ensure that their nature as Mystra's Chosen remains secret, but then they really don't want that knowledge falling into the hands of those who would wish them ill. Mystran clerics may not intentionally give out secrets and information regarding Mystra's Chosen... but there are other ways for evil groups to learn of such information from innocent minds.
Therefore... actual knowledge and the "truth" of the Chosen in the various clerical orders of Mystra would be limited to those who are only required to know what they need. As such, most priests of Mystra probably don't see one of her Chosen in their lifetime, but see them as something like exalted semidivine angels. They aren't part of the clerical structure and mostly they don't work in active cooperation, but are coordinated with the church partly by Mystra herself. As George suggested, see Secrets of the Magister for more examples of how Mystra's church and special servants interact.
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| GothicDan |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 10:48:36
The leader of the Church of Mystra in Waterdeep was a LE Necromancer. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 10:19:27
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
So they'd have no power in the church hierarchy unlike say Fzoul who I picture as being similar to a Catholic Pope with power to issue orders, change dogma or excomunicate anyone he sees fit
The comparison of Fzoul and (any) chosen of Mystra is somewhat limping. Major diffenence between him and any chosen of Mystra is that he is the Chosen of Bane and the Highest ranking Priest of Bane at the same time. Unlike any of Mystras Chosen, how are morre or less arcane spellcasters rather than divine devoutees!
So your picture of Fzoul as a "pope-like" figure seems very fitting.
Chosen of Mystra being Arcane spellcasters has nothing to do with ranking.
Some Churches of Mystra don't even have a Divine Spellcaster in them, rare but it happens. And some are lead by Arcane Spellcasters instead of a Divine Spellcaster.
I have not looked at every possible reference to mystra temples in my books but as far as I remember, the most temple leaders were at least a multi-class divine caster. So what you say is news to me!    Interesting none the less.
Leads to following conclusion: Don't go to Mystra temples looking for healing magics! |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 10:14:13
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
The Chosen have no ranking within Mystra's Church other than what they themselves have earned.
They are nothing more than "troubleshooters" and "receptacles of power" for her.
Do you have references for that? Would be great.... |
| warlockco |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 09:53:42
The Chosen have no ranking within Mystra's Church other than what they themselves have earned.
They are nothing more than "troubleshooters" and "receptacles of power" for her. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 09:52:34
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
So they'd have no power in the church hierarchy unlike say Fzoul who I picture as being similar to a Catholic Pope with power to issue orders, change dogma or excomunicate anyone he sees fit
The comparison of Fzoul and (any) chosen of Mystra is somewhat limping. Major diffenence between him and any chosen of Mystra is that he is the Chosen of Bane and the Highest ranking Priest of Bane at the same time. Unlike any of Mystras Chosen, how are morre or less arcane spellcasters rather than divine devoutees!
So your picture of Fzoul as a "pope-like" figure seems very fitting.
Chosen of Mystra being Arcane spellcasters has nothing to do with ranking.
Some Churches of Mystra don't even have a Divine Spellcaster in them, rare but it happens. And some are lead by Arcane Spellcasters instead of a Divine Spellcaster. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 09:27:36
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Has anyone ever seen any info on how MYstras chosen fit into Mystras church? Ie can the Chosen overule policys and editcts that High ranking Clerics of Mystra have made
I see them in no hierarchial position in the church either. Respected - yes. Admired - probably yes, reigning - certainly not.
I could see hogh ranking priests asking one chosen or the other for advise in dire situtations, but that would be all. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 09:19:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
So they'd have no power in the church hierarchy unlike say Fzoul who I picture as being similar to a Catholic Pope with power to issue orders, change dogma or excomunicate anyone he sees fit
The comparison of Fzoul and (any) chosen of Mystra is somewhat limping. Major diffenence between him and any chosen of Mystra is that he is the Chosen of Bane and the Highest ranking Priest of Bane at the same time. Unlike any of Mystras Chosen, how are morre or less arcane spellcasters rather than divine devoutees!
So your picture of Fzoul as a "pope-like" figure seems very fitting. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 08:43:05
So they'd have no power in the church hierarchy unlike say Fzoul who I picture as being similar to a Catholic Pope with power to issue orders, change dogma or excomunicate anyone he sees fit
It is some what suprising that Mystra 1.0 didnt define how her chosen fit into church Hierarchy seeing as how she was LN |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 08:33:46
I think the material on the Magister and how she is treated by the clergy and temples of the gods of magic (not only Mystra) would also apply to Chosen. See "Secrets of the Magister". There is also some discussion between characters in "Temptation of Elminster" regarding the Chosen, which also showcases Elminster visiting a Mystran temple. This vignette seems to indicate that if Elminster was to visit the temple to Mystra in Sheirtalar, they might just not realise who he is - quite rightly too.
As for them having religious power, I would say that they have none. If Elminster tells a priest of Mystra to do X, Y or Z, and they comply, they might do so only because he tells them what will happen if they don't comply (again his manner and personality is showcased in "Elminster's Daughter" for such 'discussions'). Being Chosen doesn't come into it. They'd probably react the same way if Szass Tam asked them. Nicely of course. Basically, Chosen can't order priests of Mystra around.
-- George Krashos
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