| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| EyesInTheNight |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 17:16:55
Greetings, all. ^_^ First post on the forums, and I have a bit of a tricky issue to resolve.
I was inducted into the FR universe through the Neverwinter Nights computer game not that long ago, and while I am absorbing information from various sources as quickly as I can, it's obviously the setting I know best. Hence, when beginning a story that I set in the FR universe, I figured to have my characters begin in Neverwinter since I knew the setting well, and have it set after the plague and seige, eventually moving the story elsewhere as I was able to beg/borrow/download sourcebooks and such.
Surprise! It seems that none of the events that happened in the game "actually happened", despite the Forgotten Realms logo on the box and the vast amount of stuff drawn in from the universe. Therefore, it seems that I ended up writing in a seperate continuity with substantial differences to the "actual" Forgotten Realms universe, which makes me want to stab random objects and people.
Is there any way that the events in the NWN original campaign can be blended into the FR universe around the edges while still being legitimate? Or are the changes so earth-shattering that I would do better to scrap the story's beginning and have it be set somewhere else, or a Neverwinter that was never plagued?
On a seperate issue, do characters like Aribeth and Fenthick really exist with references in other material, or are they too just characters made for convenience?
Thanks for any help you can provide! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Daviot |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 05:54:38
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yes, I've known about those.
Remember, though--only what's stated is canon. It doesn't mean all the content from those games is canon.
Indeed. As I mentioned a while back on yon post, canon assumes that a PC adventurer didn't gallop about the Sword Coast, offing powerful NPC's in the process.  |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 01:55:05
quote:
Originally posted by Daviot
I'd just like to add my two coppers on the topic, with my trusty copy of Grand History of the Realms.
From p. 153, 1372 DR Year of Wild Magic:
"Tarsakh 30: Citizens of Neverwinter begin falling ill from a plague later known as the Wailing Death. Within a few tendays, most inhabitants of the city are dead or dying."
Likewise, on page 32, the map "Netheril at its Height-THe Golden Age" features Undrentide near the bottom-right hand corner. 
Yes, I've known about those.
Remember, though--only what's stated is canon. It doesn't mean all the content from those games is canon. |
| Daviot |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 01:08:39
I'd just like to add my two coppers on the topic, with my trusty copy of Grand History of the Realms.
From p. 153, 1372 DR Year of Wild Magic:
"Tarsakh 30: Citizens of Neverwinter begin falling ill from a plague later known as the Wailing Death. Within a few tendays, most inhabitants of the city are dead or dying."
Likewise, on page 32, the map "Netheril at its Height-THe Golden Age" features Undrentide near the bottom-right hand corner. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 16:36:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dragon Cultist
IMO it would have been better to leave everyone with the dream that their own party saved the day.
Agreed. |
| Dragon Cultist |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 10:48:15
Got to thinking about the argument that computer games content is not canon because these games have multiple outcomes. I find this reasoning flawed. I make the comparison to adventure modules. Those have multiple outcomes by definition. In the end WotC makes a write-up (or not) in some sourcebook (see for example the Hellgate Keep timeline) and we collectively shrug off which band of adventurers exactly "ran" the module.
So...why should it matter if the killing of Sarevok at the end of BG1 takes place in a Realmsian Shrödinger Box?
Mind ye, I would not advocate that all computer games be considered canon. I agree that much in these games jars a little (or a lot) with established Realmslore. But then again, in the case of the BG saga, I personally found the events in the novels quite jarring in by themselves. For one thing: who ever heard of one "Abdel Adrian"? IMO it would have been better to leave everyone with the dream that their own party saved the day. How then to write such events up in Realms canon is another discussion I think. (Read: I have no bleeding idea, but am dissatisfied with the middle-of-the-road solution that leaves no one especially happy...) |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 05:19:54
Yes. Thank you. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 00:58:40
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
...and a feathered serpent I can't remember.
Jazirian.
|
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 23:59:49
Actually, A Guide to Hell established that Asmodeus was/is an elder dragon, one of three that created the Great Wheel, and was then severely beat up by the other two when he tried to take over. The other two were Io (after whom the Blood Isles are named), and a feathered serpent I can't remember. That makes Asmodeus pretty much a supreme being in the Hells (and less so outside them). But I haven't read A Guide to Hell in a long time, so I'll stop here. |
| FridayThe13th |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 03:02:08
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Have you ever consitered Planar politics as a factor? Ok, Mephistopheles bascically is trying to drag Toril into hell and make it the tenth layer, something that Asmodeus has sent the Archdevil Gargaunth to do. Asmodeus and Gargauth would be pretty pissed and would most definatly be sending their most powerful servants to deal wih the problem.
just to be a little anal about it (as I'v never played NWN) in outer plane/Planescape canon Asmodeus would have never allowed a 10th layer of Hell...he is super lawful as much as super evil and it breaks the Rules-of-Three...I don't think Mephistopheles would ahve even wanted that...
a quick canon fix would be a simple "absorb Toril into a layer of Hell" works better
Well, unless you are a supporter of the theory that he is the avatar of an overgod, I don't think he has the power to stop Meph from making his layer. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 19:02:29
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Have you ever consitered Planar politics as a factor? Ok, Mephistopheles bascically is trying to drag Toril into hell and make it the tenth layer, something that Asmodeus has sent the Archdevil Gargaunth to do. Asmodeus and Gargauth would be pretty pissed and would most definatly be sending their most powerful servants to deal wih the problem.
just to be a little anal about it (as I'v never played NWN) in outer plane/Planescape canon Asmodeus would have never allowed a 10th layer of Hell...he is super lawful as much as super evil and it breaks the Rules-of-Three...I don't think Mephistopheles would ahve even wanted that...
a quick canon fix would be a simple "absorb Toril into a layer of Hell" works better |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 18:49:13
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
And no major effect on Toril? One of the greatest cities on Toril is now covered with Molten Lava and swarmed with thousands of evil, hungry souls.
Don't remember Waterdeep being covered with molten lava (and I have a good memory when it comes to these things).
Considering that there's no visual effects in NWN that can simulate molten lava, it'd be hard for that to happen in the game. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 03:13:55
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
And no major effect on Toril? One of the greatest cities on Toril is now covered with Molten Lava and swarmed with thousands of evil, hungry souls.
Don't remember Waterdeep being covered with molten lava (and I have a good memory when it comes to these things). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 03:12:22
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
I seem to recall Durnan becoming lava'd toast at the start of then end-battle.
Nope, he survives--it's just that during the final battle he is incapacitated. Also, the epilogue I got mentioned him putting up a portrait of my character in the Yawning Portal Inn (that made my day). |
| FridayThe13th |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 01:32:28
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The HoTU events are just too groundbreaking...
I keep hearing this, but again, the events of HotU don't affect THAT much. Chapter 1 is just a large dungeon-crawl in the Undermountain, Chapter 2 takes place entirely in the Underdark, and Chapter 3 takes place on another plane entirely. It isn't stated anywhere that the Big Bad Evil Guy razes Waterdeep to the ground--in fact, it's possible that you thwart him only a short time after he started (and come on, it's not like Waterdeep has never seen major, deadly events before).
No major canon NPCs die, unlike the original NWN campaign.
Have you ever consitered Planar politics as a factor? Ok, Mephistopheles bascically is trying to drag Toril into hell and make it the tenth layer, something that Asmodeus has sent the Archdevil Gargaunth to do. Asmodeus and Gargauth would be pretty pissed and would most definatly be sending their most powerful servants to deal wih the problem.
Also, Meph has A LOT of enemies in hell. Meph's complete abscence in Cania would spark a huge land grab in Hell. All the archdevils, especially Baalzebul(who has always wanted Cania) would be sending hordes of devils into Cania trying to grab as much land as possible, which will spark M's allies such as Dispater to send forces into Cania as well to prevent Baalzebul's faction from gaining power. Hell's ordered hierarchy would be thrown into turmoil, there will be all out war between the archdevils, Asmodeus would be desparatly trying to keep the peace by calling all of the Blood War forces home to keep the peace.
Then the demons and celestials would see a loophole in hell and try to gain something of their own. And, the prescence of such as powerful planar being on Toril would scare the crap out of the Gods, who would be panicking because Meph got past all their wards and defenses. And no major effect on Toril? One of the greatest cities on Toril is now covered with Molten Lava and swarmed with thousands of evil, hungry souls. You can bet that Khelben and the other NPC's of Waterdeep would be fighting for their lives. You can also be assured that El and the other meddling Uber-NPC's of Toril will stick their noses in this situation.
And you can just imagine the chaos in the Underdark when the already in trouble drow hear of a huge archdevil wandering around slaughtering people and they can't even call on Lolth to help them.
The effects of such a appearance would be catastrophic to not only Toril, but the planes themselves. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 12:09:59
I seem to recall Durnan becoming lava'd toast at the start of then end-battle. But I didn't really like the HotU-campaign, so I've only played that long and could be far more wrong than a drunk Mel Gibson...
The first part is a rip-off of Steven Schend's 2nd-edition module Stardock, which felt a bit unoriginal to me. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 04:43:40
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The HoTU events are just too groundbreaking...
I keep hearing this, but again, the events of HotU don't affect THAT much. Chapter 1 is just a large dungeon-crawl in the Undermountain, Chapter 2 takes place entirely in the Underdark, and Chapter 3 takes place on another plane entirely. It isn't stated anywhere that the Big Bad Evil Guy razes Waterdeep to the ground--in fact, it's possible that you thwart him only a short time after he started (and come on, it's not like Waterdeep has never seen major, deadly events before).
No major canon NPCs die, unlike the original NWN campaign. |
| FridayThe13th |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 02:49:28
BG is canon, as there is a series of books dedicated to it.
NWM, umm, I don't think its canon. The HoTU events are just too groundbreaking and the exact dates of the events are unclear.
If there are a series of NWN novels, then I will count it, but right now, it is not canon. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 23:42:03
You're welcome. |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 23:26:37
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Also, as far as I know--going by the free-to-view story by Clayton Emery on O-Love's website, as well as the Staff of Valmaxian in Realms of the Elves--the NWN anthology was to be centered around special items found in the official NWN campaign, not the main storyline.
Now that was something that could have been mentioned earlier. Your assumption seems to be right, Clayton Emery said on his site that the stories were to be clues to finding special items in the game but that was scrapped when the items could be found in stores. I guess that's partly why I mentioned the NWN anthology, in the hopes of learning more, and I have.
Thank you for mentioning the story. Not every day you hear of something for free that might be of interest. |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 23:07:09
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
The NWN novel that was supposed to be a tie in to the game would probably have been official if it had been published.
So what?
So what?
Just saying that some of the events in NWN could be canon, but obviously not the over the top ones such as the ones you've mentioned. That's what.
Kuje just indicated that a few stories from the NWN anthology have seen print elsewhere. Those tie ins are likely official. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 23:04:20
Also, as far as I know--going by the free-to-view story by Clayton Emery on O-Love's website, as well as the Staff of Valmaxian in Realms of the Elves--the NWN anthology was to be centered around special items found in the official NWN campaign, not the main storyline. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 22:49:11
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
The NWN novel that was supposed to be a tie in to the game would probably have been official if it had been published.
It was an anthology actually, so it's stories would have been and some of them have been included in recent anthologies. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 22:05:40
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
The NWN novel that was supposed to be a tie in to the game would probably have been official if it had been published.
So what? |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 21:59:06
The NWN novel that was supposed to be a tie in to the game would probably have been official if it had been published. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 21:41:18
quote:
Originally posted by ode904
Events that books etc. tell you in BG or NWN have mostly ''happened'' but the things you can do in f.ex. NWN, may have multiple endings. For example in NWN, you can kill Obould Many-Arrows or let him go. The things you do(or are involded in) in Forgotten Realms games shouldn't be considered as happened in Forgotten Realms.
The NWN encounter with Obould (and Klauth, for that matter!) was absurd and a good example of why that campaign doesn't make for a good FR "canon". |
| ode904 |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 11:53:51
Events that books etc. tell you in BG or NWN have mostly ''happened'' but the things you can do in f.ex. NWN, may have multiple endings. For example in NWN, you can kill Obould Many-Arrows or let him go. The things you do(or are involded in) in Forgotten Realms games shouldn't be considered as happened in Forgotten Realms. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 16:32:45
Cough,
Actually that was from my FR faq and I've said that repeatedly for over 5 or six years now but I gave Sage permission to add that to his Keep faq, whenever it sees the light of day. :) |
| Durak |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 15:55:09
Well the computers games aren’t canon had me confused. But now the mist has been lifted from my eyes.
Basically I now understand how it works. Even if I feel The Sage has beaten me over the head with facts and information :) I remember most of all that, that’s why I got confused.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry if distracting from the Original posters query.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 15:20:47
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Durak
The question would now be, Which computer games are canon? I am nearly 100% sure Baldurs gate was, maybe not the outcome, but the event itself.
The BG games can't be considered canon, largely because of their multiple endings -- thus they can't find any true support in official WotC Realmslore or Realms history.
Rich Baker, Ed Greenwood and Ed Bonny have all confirmed this as well.
However, novels or game products that incorporate part of a computer game ARE canon, but only so far as the novel or game product discusses the events in the computer game. In other words, the Baldur's Gate novels are canon, references to such events in Power of Faerun are canon, but the games themselves are not.
--Eric
Aye. I've discussed this numerous times both here and at WotC -- and earlier in this scroll, in fact.
The BG novels are canon. WotC lists them as taking place in 1368 DR and 1369 DR. As well, the characters from the novels were stat’d up in DRAGON #262 for 2e and there is the Bhaalspawn template for 3e in DRAGON #288. Ed wrote a sourcebook that complements the novels -- Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II. In addition, Jim Butler answered this question in 2000 on the FR Mailing List. There's also some tidbits Lost Empires of Faerun.
And finally, the author of the last novel chimed in on the topic -
"<Ulairi> <Howdy> Are the BG games considered canon Forgotten Realms history by WotC?
<Drew2_Bio> Because of our multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered "official" in the FR world. However, the novels (including the upcoming TOB novel - another free plug for me!) are considered canon."
|
| FridayThe13th |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 14:38:09
Thanks for clearing things up Eric. Sometimes WoTC can just be so inconsistant. |
