| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| keijemon |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 02:31:03
Hi all,
I was wondering if Titans ever existed in FR and, if yes, have they been detailed anywhere in both fluff and stats. For stats, general abilities/spells would suffice, I'm not looking for usual block like what major NPCs get in sources.
Thank you. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 19:44:31
According to the story [Twilight in Realms of Infamy (IIRC - STILL not at home), Ulutiu created 5 gems as his final dying act. The were ice crystals of 5 different colors, formed on his fingertips which he dipped into the waters of 'the frozen Sea'. He then pressed the 5 gems into his collar, like a necklace, and then sank beneath the waves.
A LOT can be done with that - in my version of FR, I would make each gem become important unto itself. For instance, I would have one be set in the Ring of Winter (which assumes, of course, that at least one of the gems have been retrieved). If you bring all five together it would have the power to freeze the entire northern part of Toril (as it once did). Just my take, is all.
And yeah, I know it sounds a bit like the Infinity Gauntlet, but I like multi-part artifacts like that.
As for Sossil, I believe someone else had already done bang-up job of collecting ALL the sources for the place, but I'm not sure if they wanted help producing material for a Netbook - both Sage and I volunteered our services. I'm not even sure if I finished my own map of Sossil - I was working on that and the Great lacier around the time I quit mapping last year.
The very best source for info on Sossil was a short story about the place, that actually took place in an Inn just south of it - I believe it was called The Greatest Hero that ever Lived. Although the culture appears to be an early finno-Russian (like many of the Raumvari cultures are) derivitive, there is enough there to differentiate it from the pack. It is almost like a Russian/Siberian blend, with elements of Mongo's (Flash Gordon) Friggia thrown in. The 'Hero' from the story is actually some sort of evil bard - he is almost like a 'psychic vampire' - VERY cool.
Also, there is a bit about the 'Ice demons' in the Kara-Tur material, which turn out (at least some of them) to be 'Frost Folk' (that was in the novel that took place in the Taan, forget the name ATM). There is some stuff about the Nar (and later the Raumathari) using true ice demons in the far north, which can be tied into the Giant stuff as well, I suppose.
I'm starting to think there may have been a crust shift at some point in Toril's past. The most obvious event would the one that created the Sea of Fallen Stars, but since I don't have any sources with me I can't check the dates.
A massive cataclysmic shift in temperature in the North, caused by something falling into the Sea of Fallen Stars would be a great basis for that folklore regarding the Giants dying by just such an event. Something like that would have moved Zakhara from a more southerly (and cold) position to up near the equator, which could be the scientific basis for the legends of that region regarding the 'scattering of Fate', wherein all the peoples of a then-verdant Zakhara were driven to the fringes of that land (near the sea, to survive?) |
| Jakk |
Posted - 31 Aug 2010 : 05:27:47
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm leaning to the fact that the "Great Glacier" was once considered much greater by all involved...and smaller parts of it were later called other names after breaking away.
The map linked to in Markustay's recent post would confirm that... and suggest that it hasn't really separated at all.
I'd love to have more lore on Sossal... Mark, weren't you working on a Sossal project at one point? I think that another scribe was doing so as well, but I don't recall who...
Another question for you, Mark (or whoever has the answer first): What was Ulutiu's 'necklace', if not a necklace? I don't have my copy of FR14 anywhere remotely handy thanks to moving four and a half years ago and leaving all of my pre-3E material in storage.  I'll try FRwiki for an answer too. Thanks! 
Edit: Apparently, it was an amulet... not so much different from a necklace. I remember that now... vaguely. Must get... older books moved.... soon...  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 20:59:12
The problem with that is that other sources say that the glacier formed by Ulutiu's 'necklace' (which wasn't a necklace at all, BTW) grew south to overwhelm Ostoria.
Having Pelvuria centralized to the original glacier doesn't really work for me. I would rather that the Ugl-whatever (I hate those Inuit names!!!) myths about Ulutiu are really about the greater, more ancient glacier of which Pelvuria is only a small part. Since the ginatish and Inuit myths do not mesh 100%, I would prefer to favor the giantish ones (since there are written records that corroborate them, by at least three races).
Let me play with it a bit more - unfortunately not going to be home again the next few days, so it will be awhile. There was also a peninsula where the Jotun kingdom was (its in that online Portal article) which isn't evident on newer maps - I will need to do some sort of historic one with a more accurate coast, perhaps depicting the various Giant kingdom, and take into account the warping of the map. If I stretch Ostoria further east (and there are giants in the North of Kara-Tur) to include most of the Great ice sea (which makes sense), I can perhaps relocate the center of the original glacier.
Only problem is, we have evidence that the last of the giant kingdom (Gharreil?) only fell about a thousand years ago. The stuff concerning Netheril and giants fits rather well (as does the Cloud Kingdom material), but if we stretch things east I am going to have to re-think quite a bit of the history of the Taan.
Now that I am thinking on this, that might actually work-out for the best....
Hmmmmm.....
I always thought that a Krakentoa looked liked the result of a Titan infected with an Illithid larvae. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 20:32:15
A thought: Ulutiu's Glacier is on the modern great glacier; the area you have as Pelvuria.
Also, it states in the Great Glacier book that Ulutiu's Necklace vents heat into the Novularond Mountains via a passage that runs from beneath the mountains through a conduit to beneath the Lugalpgotak Sea where the necklace rests.
Ulutiu rests beneath the Lugalpgotak Sea near the center of the "modern" Great Glacier. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 19:48:48
An out!!!
pg. 209, Realms of Infamy-quote:
"It had been thousands of years since Othea had sent their father away, but even lacking Annam's guidance, Ostoria had grown large and powerful. It stretched so far that in two tendays that Lanaxis could not walk from one end to the other. The empire extended almost as far southward, to kingdoms where humans and dwarves were rising. Each race of giants held dominion over one area of this vast realm, and so the sons of Annam were scattered far and wide."
Lanaxis' home was called Bleak Palace (why would ANYONE name their home that?  ).
So, the Palace in Twilight Vale is NOT Voninheim, but Lanaxis' own private residence, as I theorized.
We also have proof now that dwarves and humans were around and at least semi-civilized while Ostoria still existed.
Here is a quick mock-up of how things are/were -
Ostoria and the great Glacier
No location is giving for Gharreil, which was the 'capitol' of Jhothūn. Giving the word 'Jhothūn', I would hazard to guess that it refers to the frost-Giant realm of Lanaxis' brother, Ottar (Just as Lanaxis would have been a true Titan, Ottar would have been a Jotun). It also makes more sense for it t be connected to the frost Giants specifically, given the Qorrash presence.
All that light blue would have been 'The Great Glacier' of giantish folklore, and the 'pink-afied' area is my conjecture on the borders of Ostoria at it's height. All of it - Ostoria and the great Glacier - would be considered 'the Cold lands' by the Giants. Note I have given them Sea ports on both coasts (massive ships of giant proportions have been found in Faerūn). My idea for Ulutiu's landing-place comes from the fact that that is the center of the greater Glacier in the north, and the spot I think would make for a good Voninheim is the center of Ostoria (both conjecture - this is a working model); a GM can place it anywhere he likes.
The next step would be to figure out where each of the Annam's sons had their realms - for instance, I think the region around Mount Ghaethluntar would make an excellent spot for Masud and his Fire giants.
Also keep in mind that I have not properly 'squashed' this whole region - it is far enough north where the top portions of that map should be pinched together by about a 1/3. That makes it more manageable, while at the same time keeping it within the boundaries of that passage I quoted above. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 01:28:38
I'm leaning to the fact that the "Great Glacier" was once considered much greater by all involved...and smaller parts of it were later called other names after breaking away. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 00:45:44
However, to move the Titan's capital out of Hartsvale negates the entire story-arc of the Twilight Giants trilogy, and most-especially the last book, the Titan of Twilight.
Lanaxis is trapped within Voninheim, which is in modern-day Twilight Vale, and he purposely leaves twilight Vale to capture Hartsvale's queen, thus activating the curse and negating his own immortality in the process. The Vale is called 'Twilight' because it exists within the shadow of Othea - which means her mountain-manifestation is also within Hartsvale.
Which is why that trilogy screwed the pooch in so many ways, and why it could have been fixed somewhat, if they hadn't placed Hartsvale on the damn 3e Silver Marches map. I could have tweaked things so it was at least above Anauroch, but no such luck now.
The only explanation is that EVERYTHING above The North/Thar/Demon Lands was once covered by Ulutiu's glacier, THE GLACIER mentioned in giantish tales, and The Great Glacier (Pelvuria) is just the eastern remnant of that. Since the Giantcraft source says that entire region was once Ostoria, and we know the glacier eventually covered Ostoria (including, finally, Voninheim), we are just splitting hairs here. The current 'Great Glacier' is not necessarily the same exact region as the one from the myths (which was MUCH larger). By the same token, the Giantcraft source also states that ALL of the lands above Faerūn are 'The Cold Lands', not just those in the east.
I would chalk this whole misunderstanding up to the original giantish terminology for certain regions as opposed to the modern (human) terminology which only incorporates a small portion of what the Giantish terms did (which makes sense, given the size differences of the two).
Which of course does not preclude the fact that Voninheim was in Hartsvale, otherwise you need to disregard the entire trilogy.
As for the other thing, thats an easy one. The Qorrash were minions of the Titans, and of-course they would refer to the giant leader by an equivalent term of respect in their own language - a satrap. As to why these elemental beings would be found with titans... I think we need to go back to REAL Titans. One of the few things I approved of in the Disney version of Hercules was the personification of the Titans as 'forces of nature'; Elder Titans are/were Primordials - the living embodiments of the forces they represented.
Ergo, I suggest you go with what someone had suggested earlier - Annam's offspring was a True Titan, and his offspring would have been terrestrial titans - those 'humongous humans' of D&D fame. The Qorrash were summoned by Lanaxis (or possibly some other True Titan we don't know about), because it is their right to do so, and they served Ostoria, or at least Choshein, and followed the directives of the other giants there as per their orders from their summoner.
You could even go so far as to say Choshein was the capital of Ostoria, and Voninheim was the capital of the titan region of Ostoria - each brother ruled a seperate province. Since the Titan - Lanaxis - was the de-facto leader of the Giant sons of Annam, orders could have come down from him from Voninheim, but the day-to-day running of the empire itself was directed from Choshein. Its not unheard of for countries to have two capitals, especially in The East (just as we in the states have two leaders to govern foreign affairs and domestic).
Do I think that is a perfect solution? Absolutely not... but the giant history has become so garbled, that each person who has tried to add to it just made matters much worse (including those erroneous entries in the GHotR).
On the other hand, it seems as if there are two Separate Ostorias - the one from ancient history, and a much more recent (and horribly reduced) version in more recent times. Perhaps some remnant of the original realm survived up to a thousand years ago (thinking about the Ogres of Thar now), made possible by the Netherease (or something else) somehow warming the region up (and splitting the Glacier in half), allowing Thar, The Ride, the Frozen Forest, etc.. to all stay un-frozen and habitable.
The Netherese also had some history of fighting Giants, and Cloud & Storm Giants were present in the Cloud Kingdom above the Stonelands, so it appears that the Giants had a kingdom, perhaps hidden from human and demi-human knowledge, up until recently. I site the Serpent kingdom of Najara as a precedent, which lies well within human lands, without any humans even being aware of it. It is entirely possible, that if the giants lived in very remote regions (as they are wont to do), they could have considered themselves a unified kingdom, even if the various settlements were hundreds upon hundreds of miles apart - such distances would seem fairly trivial to giants.
If that were the case, and the Giants still felt somewhat unified until only a handful of centuries ago, then perhaps Choshein was a second capital built after Voninheim succumbed to the ice.
EDIT: I will re-read Twilight in Realms of Infamy tonight and see if I can find another 'out' for us. That story covers everything from Othea's affair to the betrayal of Lanaxis and death of his brothers and Othea. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 05:40:20
DOH!
The first Titan mentioned in Faerun kills the Batrachi leader, and his name is Omo.
Yet, Annam and Othea don't have their first children until 1500 years later. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 18:21:32
quote:
Originally posted by coach
another reason i think it is still buried under the GG is that if it was in the Hartsvale area and the GG receded why hasn't it been rediscovered?
I think I agree...I think it is still buried under the Great Glacier...but perhaps it won't be long before it is uncovered. |
| coach |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 17:05:31
another reason i think it is still buried under the GG is that if it was in the Hartsvale area and the GG receded why hasn't it been rediscovered? |
| Barastir |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 14:50:00
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Additionally, Demihuman Deities notes that Hanali is served by titans.
I know I'm kinda off the way the thread is going now, but I noted no one commented this statement, made back in 2006 by the Sage. Just wanted to remember that Hanali can be served by titans that live in other planes, outside the Realms. She's probably served by titans in Arvandor. |
| Kyrene |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 09:59:28
The last article in that series has this to say:quote:
The portal leading to the Sea of Moving Ice stands on the west side of the tower, surrounded by an inscription reading, "The city of Karffbadh, seat of the Satrap of the Moving Ice, loyal servant of the Emperor of Jhothūn. May the qorrash smile upon it and nurture its mighty works, and keep the Satrap firm in loyalty. From thence shall the power of the Emperor extend to the west."
The portal leading to the High Ice stands on the south side of the tower. Its inscription reads, "The city of Choshein, seat of the Satrap of the High Ice, loyal servant of the Emperor of Jhothūn. May the qorrash smile upon it and nurture its mighty works, and keep the Satrap firm in loyalty. From thence shall the power of the Emperor extend to the south."
The portal leading to the Great Glacier stands on the east side of the tower, and its inscription is nearly identical to that outside the gate of Gharreil: "The city of Gharreil, seat of the Satrap of the Great Glacier, loyal servant of the Emperor of Jhothūn. May the qorrash smile upon it and nurture its mighty works, and keep the Satrap firm in loyalty. From thence shall the power of the Emperor extend to the east."
So we have the cities of Karffbadh (in the west), Choshein (in the south) and Gharreil (in the east) and of course Jhothūn itself, but if any of them even relate to Voninheim I don't know. Giant lore is not my strongpoint. |
| Kyrene |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 09:38:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
"The city of Gharreil, seat of the Satrap of the Great Glacier, loyal servant of the Emperor of Jhothūn. May the qorrash smile upon it and nurture its mighty works, and continue to favor all of Jhothūn. Let no thieves or heretics enter this gate, for both suffer death in this city."
What in the nine hells!?
Satrap???
I asked Ed previously regarding satraps in Calimshan, to whit:
satrap Alzhedo:- the lawful or legitimate governor or ruler of a province or area in Calimshan; a Calishite term for a frontier bandit lord (what those in northerly areas would call a robber baron) since such individuals almost always style themselves as, or try to claim or proclaim themselves as the legitimate version of the term (So saith Ed - December 19, 2005; So saith Ed - May 23, 2010)
I can only assume that this "Satrap" mentioned was a governor of Jhothūn, thus Gharreil being an outpost in the Great Glacier (his full title being "Satrap of the Great Glacier"). Now, as to how this relates to the location of Voninheim I can't help with that. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 07:09:04
Why in the hell would the Titans and/or Giants have anything to do with them?
 |
| Stormlord |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 06:40:09
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
What in the nine hells!?
Satrap???
And what in the blue blazes (wow...looking back blue blazes has a whole new meaning in the FR!)...what in the blue blazes is qorrash???
Greetings,
They are distant relatives of the djinn, qorrash (singular qorrashi) are elemental spirits of cold and ice. This information may be found in Frostburn (pg. 131) or here at the Wizard's website. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 04:35:50
quote:
"The city of Gharreil, seat of the Satrap of the Great Glacier, loyal servant of the Emperor of Jhothūn. May the qorrash smile upon it and nurture its mighty works, and continue to favor all of Jhothūn. Let no thieves or heretics enter this gate, for both suffer death in this city."
What in the nine hells!?
Satrap???
And what in the blue blazes (wow...looking back blue blazes has a whole new meaning in the FR!)...what in the blue blazes is qorrash??? |
| coach |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 03:47:36
and even another reference to why i think the Titan city was located in the Cold Lands is that is also where Othea manifested herself as a large mountain |
| coach |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 03:43:03
and
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20020619x
|
| coach |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 03:40:49
ok, my notes say ...
Lanaxis constructed Voninheim (Bleak Palace) in the Cold Lands at the edge of the Great Glacier (Giantcraft p11)
that is TWO references to the current location of the Cold Lands so I'm inclined to go with that as the location
even if the glacier receded a heck of alot, the fact that it mentioned "Cold Lands" on page 11 sews it up for me as NOT being in the Twilight Giants area, i'll use the reference to Voninheim in the Hartsvale area as the canon faux pas and not the other way around
@Markus ... your edit above speaks of the Perilous Gateways web adventure and yes it is another Giant city named Gharreil located under the Great Glacier, guarded by one of Iyraclea's Icy Claws named Tosvin ... a gelugon ... and as you said it is just north of vaasa and the Ice Run
weblink of the city here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mapofweek/city802.jpg
article here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20020619a
again another reference to a buried giant city under the GG ... the area of Hartsvale is rocky and earth so no chance IMO of buried cities located there and thus another reason to justify that Voninheim is located below the GG
now if it can only be found so the magical fountain can be tested to see if it still works LOL |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 22:12:41
Thanks guys...I just really want to try and nail down where the Titan Citadel was.
There are new hints with the new map of Vaasa calling some of the mountains the "Titan Peaks" an area just to the south and east of there the "Throne of the Titan Lords" and another I can't recall right now from another source.
I'm guessing that the Titan Culture is the one hidden beneath the ice; because in Giantcraft it says Othea wouldn't allow her children to do anything to the glacier as it progressed, and eventually the Titan City was destroyed/covered by it. The Titan's left in disgust after that. |
| coach |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 21:24:50
The Cold Lands used to be bigger and no you didnt misunderstand, there is either the fact that The Cold Lands were REALLY huge or that there is a serious errata issue with that sourcebook
i forgot to check last night but on my way home again to look |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 21:18:22
Its on a map in the Twilight Giants trilogy - I'll try to scan it for you later - I'm on my way out right now.
And its nowhere near the great Glacier. 
Another lore gaff, but one that is easily fixable, with other canon - the Great Glacier has been receding for centuries, and that piece of ice above Anauroch is a remnant of it, as well as {probably} the Reghed Glacier.
I assumed elsewhere that the Netherese had some sort of artificial way of melting the ice in order to divert that sea way back when, and after their fall the device stopped functioning and the ice returned. I haven't read the Archwizards trilogy, and its probably good I didn't, because I can use what little i know of it with being 'fettered' by the details. If they were re-melting the glacier, i can assume they re-power the ancient artifact/structure that did so in the past.
Unless someone else can come up with a better explanation for everything weird 'up there', thats what I'm using.
EDIT: IIRC, there is also some info about yet-another anciet empire buried under all that ice - it had something to do with portals I think, and some sort of Ice-djinn... something on the Wizards sight a long while back. It may also have been linked to that Ice-Lich woman - forget her name - living just north of Vassa. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 22:33:26
Perhaps I misunderstood then...I thought the "Cold Lands" were Vaasa, Damara and those areas. |
| coach |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 20:46:58
Voninheim is located in the Cold Lands
when i get home i'll check my sources |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 04:54:28
[Dalor Darden Casts Rez Scroll]
Well, I found out that Voninheim is supposed to be near the Glacier caused by Ulutiu...
quote:
Page 11 of "Giantcraft": In its last few years of expansion, the glacier even threatened to engulf Lanaxis' citadel at Voninheim, the remains of Ostoria's capital.
What this does NOT reveal is where exactly that was. It does say that Ulutiu sank in what was then called the Ice Sea (apparently several hundred miles of sea in fact).
So I have no idea exactly where this Titan Citadel was...
Anyone else? |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 06:16:36
well, the Titans are a very small step below demi-gods and are known for spontaneity and extreme reactions of emotions. If it is one thing that is not in the titans nature it is keeping a low profile. Even a small nation of thirty-forty of them would be something like a local Time of very much Trouble. |
| khorne |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 23:15:43
I don`t know much about the titans except that they are the mightiest of the giants. What kind of effect would a nation of titans have on western Faerun if they emigrated to some place there? People seem to suggest that they wouldn`t exactly keep a low profile. (metaphorically) |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 07:08:07
By the way, there is probably a way to link a cometary dragon origin in Faerūn, involving a falling star, with the King Killer comet that causes dragons to rage when it passes by. Just brainstorming here. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 07:03:48
There is a bunch about titans in the old FR supplement Giantcraft. The capital of Ostoria was called Voninheim, and "vonin" means "titan" in the giant language, "heim" being "home" or "land".
It seems likely that Voninheim, or a sizeable titan kingdom may have been located where the Sea of Fallen Stars is today. This was many thousands of years before the Sundering, so the continents looked different back then. There is some lore, I believe, that suggests that the Sea of Fallen Stars was once maybe 4 smaller inner seas or great lakes and that perhaps some cataclysmic event joined them together into a greater inner sea.
I personally speculate that the Titans got into a war with the Batrachi, the amphibious creator race, who had settled the land around the inner seas back in the day. I imagine that the "Falling Star" that eradicated the Titan race and carved the Sea of Falling Stars was some sort of epic spell, or a comet perhaps, that was dropped on the Titan homeland as a "mutual assured destruction" doomsday gambit by the Batrachi, which succeeded in razing their own cities as well.
Now the only remnants of Batrachi cities may be those strange towers in the swamps around the edges of the Sea of Fallen Stars. The Batrachi empire ended around -31,000 DR. That may have been around the time that the Titans died out and the "falling star" created the Sea of Falling Stars.
Coincidentally, the dragons are said to have first rained down upon the face of Faerūn in eggs that fell in a meteor shower from the sky, and this was when the Giant races were still young. Dragons rose to become a great power around -30,000 DR and held dominion over Faerūn until about -24,000 DR. Assuming they had to be around for a few generations before they could take over, the first dragon eggs may have fallen and hatched around a thousand years earlier (give or take). It just might be that the dragons fell from the sky in a firestorm around -31,000 DR in the same cataclysmic event that carved the Sea of Fallen stars.
Furthermore, there is a myth in the old FR Draconomicon that says the dragons were spawned from the blood of Asgorath as he (or she) fought a battle in the sky with the sun.
Putting this altogether I like to think that Batrachi mages summoned the dragon-father Asgorath from "beyond" in order to fight the Titans. As a result, Asgorath pulled a comet from the sky (or perhaps some of the Tears of Selūne) and rained them down of Voninheim, along with eggs of his spawn. The event not only exterminated the Titans but spelled the end for the Batrachi empire(s) as well. And of course, the only race that profited were Asgorath's spawn, the dragon race, who grew up to reign supreme over the Realms, for a time, until the First Flowering many milennia later. |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 17:44:53
Power of the Press My Dear Wooly, Power of the Press... |
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